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38 minutes ago, fordmantpw said:

F450 and F550 chassis cabs are built at Avon Lake with the MDT.  I'm sure the F600 will be there as well.

For sure.  The F-600 is a 550 with higher rated tires and axles/springs.  600 should be attractive in particular with the 7.3 gas.  Liability? The serviceability advantage the GM/Internationals will have with their tilt hood.  Also be interesting to see what happens to 650 sales.  Big question is what percentage of current 650 sales are at 26,000 gvw??? 

A lot of dealers around here stock 650 dumps at 26,000.  No CDL driver and no FET.  Will customers give up that capacity advantage over the 600 and the class 6   GM.  I leave out the International CV at class 6 as if a customer wants a 26,000 International he can buy an MV at 26.000.

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17 hours ago, fordmantpw said:

F450 and F550 chassis cabs are built at Avon Lake with the MDT.  I'm sure the F600 will be there as well.

 I was basing my statement on a Wikipedia page for information...thank you for the clarification. 

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Well apparently Paccar feels there IS a US market for LCFs.  Maybe now with  Ford's  Cargo plant in Brazil being operated by someone committed to trucks, Ford might think about getting back in the LCF business in the US

Heavy Duty Trucking (HDT)  /  April 2, 2019

 

Kenworth has expanded its option offerings for the company’s medium-duty cabover K370 and K270 models.

 

For the Kenworth K370 Class 7 cabover, new options are the Dana Spicer S23-172E 23K high entry axle, Reyco 23K rear suspension, Dana 1710 driveline series, 8K lift axle pusher, pusher tires and wheels, and upsized park and spring brakes.

 

These options are applicable for heavy freight delivery, dump truck, small concrete mixer and crane, while also opening the door for other vocational uses, such as a larger concrete mixer or 43K dump.

 

The K370 and the Class 6 K270 both now offer the Davco 245 fuel/water separator combined with a battery disconnect switch on the left-hand rail as an option.

 

“These enhancements for the Kenworth K270 and K370 cabovers provide customers with more choices to expand the product line into a wider range of medium duty applications,” said Kurt Swihart, Kenworth marketing director.

 

 The Kenworth K270 and K370 are powered by the 6.7-liter PACCAR PX-7 engine, which is rated up to 260 horsepower and 660 lbs.-ft. of torque. Both models are standard with the 2100 HS Allison 5-speed automatic transmission.

 

A 55-degree wheel cut offers a tighter turning radius and greater maneuverability for operating in crowded urban environments. The cabovers also offer a large windshield for enhanced visibility, and room to carry a three-person crew with an air-suspended driver seat and two-person bench seat.

 

 With a bumper to back of cab measurement of only 63.4 inches, the Kenworth cabovers provide increased room for body installations. This enables the K270 and K370 to haul more payload with a shorter overall length. This is especially important as overall truck length is becoming more regulated in some major metropolitan cities.

 

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kenworth-k370-__-720x442-a.jpg.png

 

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10 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Well apparently Paccar feels there IS a US market for LCFs.  Maybe now with  Ford's  Cargo plant in Brazil being operated by someone committed to trucks, Ford might think about getting back in the LCF business in the US

Well, can Ford can get into Class 6/7/8 COE via their VW tie up and use MAN or Scania cabs shipped into Avon Lake?

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3 hours ago, twintornados said:

Well, can Ford can get into Class 6/7/8 COE via their VW tie up and use MAN or Scania cabs shipped into Avon Lake?

Another possibility but everything I have read clearly states the VW co-operation as far as trucks will only involve light commercial vehicles.  And with VW's 17% stake in Navistar I would think they might have no interest in furthering Ford's survival in anything beyond class 3.   

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Remember PACCAR's LCF's are based on Dutch DAF's, so it isn't like PACCAR spent the money to develop them just for the North American market.  PACCAR is a exclusively a medium/heavy truck manufacturer, they want to be in the medium duty LCF market.  

I don't see any possibility that Ford will share in any of Traton's products.  Even though the IPO of Traton has been temporarily postponed, I think it is clearly the intent of VW Group to spin their truck unit off eventually.  A relationship with Ford is very desirable to VW Group because of light commercial vehicles, this is a primary driver of the partnership.  Still not sure what Ford gets out of this, about all I can think of is passenger cars for markets other than North America and/or a partner to help with exit strategies in Europe and South America. 

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1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Another possibility but everything I have read clearly states the VW co-operation as far as trucks will only involve light commercial vehicles.  And with VW's 17% stake in Navistar I would think they might have no interest in furthering Ford's survival in anything beyond class 3.   

But, then why would Navistar tie up with GM?

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3 minutes ago, twintornados said:

But, then why would Navistar tie up with GM?

That's a pretty good marriage of convenience.  I don't think Navistar sees GM as a real competitor, they see them as a good source of engineering, components, and a certain number of medium duty truck sales.  Sure, International dealers will have some competition from Chevy dealers in class 4/5/6, but Navistar will be building all the trucks and got GM to pay for better than half of the development costs.  GM gets back into the medium duty game with minimal investment.  

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8 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

That's a pretty good marriage of convenience.  I don't think Navistar sees GM as a real competitor, they see them as a good source of engineering, components, and a certain number of medium duty truck sales.  Sure, International dealers will have some competition from Chevy dealers in class 4/5/6, but Navistar will be building all the trucks and got GM to pay for better than half of the development costs.  GM gets back into the medium duty game with minimal investment.  

But, if the end game is for VW to grow their presence in the NA market, why tie up with Ford for commercial truck business?

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2 minutes ago, twintornados said:

But, if the end game is for VW to grow their presence in the NA market, why tie up with Ford for commercial truck business?

Light commercial, not medium/heavy.

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That's an Isuzu NPR or maybe a GMC W-series. They are identical so you can't tell with the badge removed in the commercial. They also painted over the window cutout for some reason.

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5 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

That's a pretty good marriage of convenience.  I don't think Navistar sees GM as a real competitor, they see them as a good source of engineering, components, and a certain number of medium duty truck sales.  Sure, International dealers will have some competition from Chevy dealers in class 4/5/6, but Navistar will be building all the trucks and got GM to pay for better than half of the development costs.  GM gets back into the medium duty game with minimal investment.  

I thought that Navistar did all the development work??  And I would imagine the plant utilization Navistar is enjoying as they are building the trucks does a lot to lower their own unit cost.

As I've said before, the big winner in this deal IMO is International.  What other dealer network offers class 4-8.  That is excluding all the Volvo/Mack?Paccar stores that also carry a Hino/Mitsu/Isuzu flag.

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19 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I thought that Navistar did all the development work??  And I would imagine the plant utilization Navistar is enjoying as they are building the trucks does a lot to lower their own unit cost.

As I've said before, the big winner in this deal IMO is International.  What other dealer network offers class 4-8.  That is excluding all the Volvo/Mack?Paccar stores that also carry a Hino/Mitsu/Isuzu flag.

From what I understand, you are correct, International did the engineering and provides the frames and axles.  Pretty much everything else comes from GM's parts bin.  It does help International not only spread out unit costs, but also gives them access to engines other than their own or Cummins.  Everybody knows how much trouble International has had with it's own internal engine program.  Finally, it gives International access to gasoline engines (according to a Chevrolet rep at the Builder's Show in Las Vegas, Chevrolet IS planning on adding a gasoline engine to the mediums).  Chevrolet gets back into the medium game for minimal effort.

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I was figuring since the cab and powertrain were GM, along with the electrical.  Navistar supplies frame, suspension, and front axle, along with assembly.  I hear that Navistar is very interested in GM's gas engines too.  I think Navistar is probably behind the upcoming 8+L gas V-8 GM is developing.

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Well for you guys who miss the old days I ran across this LTS 9000 today dropping a JD loader off at a job site.  Had to stop and compliment driver.  Owners son and they have had this 350HP 3406 since new-so didn't get date but well over 20 years old. Over 300,000 and he said clutch just starting to slip a little.  These guys also  have a 400 acre farm in addition to excavation business.  In addition to loader their 550  dozer was at site as well as a 315 Cat Excavator.

Good conversation with a guy who had a lot of pride in his equipment.   And with good reasonFordLTS9000.thumb.jpg.43165a5db11db30db8792300d1e31cfe.jpg

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Posted this picture on a Mack site I frequent..

Again a comment from a guy you old guys will appreciate;

 

To think back in the day I drove so many of those Ford's I was praying to get out of one because I wanted a Mack.

Today I wish I could get back into an old Ford, LOL. They were a good truck. Drove many with 2 stroke Detroit power and a few 3406B Cat's.

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On 4/4/2019 at 4:06 AM, twintornados said:

But, if the end game is for VW to grow their presence in the NA market, why tie up with Ford for commercial truck business?

Cost, VW has lost a combined $30 Billion thanks to Dieselgate. So wherever it suits them to pass on developing vehicles and or power trains and just buy into those markets, then they will do it. At the moment, the alliance with Ford is just Ranger and Transit vans but that could be enough to get a foot in the door.  I don't see VW and Ford engaging in co-development of NG F150 or large SUVs  but, I think the door is open for Ford to sign up with VW's North American Electric vehicle production and sales.

F600 is an expansion of the popular F550, increased sales will come from F650's gasoline sales. It's a more efficient production model and an exit strategy from  F650 and F750. So I see Ford reducing its Medium Duty presence, not increasing.

Edited by jpd80

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2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Cost, VW has lost a combined $30 Billion thanks to Dieselgate. So wherever it suits them to pass on developing vehicles and or power trains and just buy into those markets, then they will do it. At the moment, the alliance with Ford is just Ranger and Transit vans but that could be enough to get a foot in the door.  I don't see VW and Ford engaging in co-development of NG F150 or large SUVs  but, I think the door is open for Ford to sign up with VW's North American Electric vehicle production and sales.

F600 is an expansion of the popular F550, increased sales will come from F650's gasoline sales. It's a more efficient production model and an exit strategy from  F650 and F750. So I see Ford reducing its Medium Duty presence, not increasing.

I hate to say it, but given the half assed effort at class 6 and 7 I'm afraid you are correct.  Even though others are making an effort to gain 6 and 7 market share.  And I really do believe that the 7.3 would provide a huge lift to those operators who need the class 6 and 7 weight ratings but don't have the annual utilization (mileage) to support the diesel premium.  In particular the 7.3 would offer another big positive if available in 6 and 7 as an LP/ CNG option. Keep in mind at this point, no one has a gasoline conventional in class 6 and 7-but my bet is not for long.

But perhaps we are both wrong, and the 600 was a quick and dirty way to steel a bit of the GM/Navistar JV thunder in class 6.  We shall see.

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18 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I hate to say it, but given the half assed effort at class 6 and 7 I'm afraid you are correct.  Even though others are making an effort to gain 6 and 7 market share.  And I really do believe that the 7.3 would provide a huge lift to those operators who need the class 6 and 7 weight ratings but don't have the annual utilization (mileage) to support the diesel premium.  In particular the 7.3 would offer another big positive if available in 6 and 7 as an LP/ CNG option. Keep in mind at this point, no one has a gasoline conventional in class 6 and 7-but my bet is not for long.

But perhaps we are both wrong, and the 600 was a quick and dirty way to steel a bit of the GM/Navistar JV thunder in class 6.  We shall see.

I hope so Bob, I think F600 will definitely blunt any impact from GM/Navitar's class 6 truck, the goal posts have just been shifted by Ford  answering the feedback of its class 3 to 7 gasoline buyers, not just Class 6. The whole landscape is being transformed as class F250 to F600 now have 6.2 V8, 7.3 V8 and 6.7 V8 PS - all with 10-speed auto. Ford casts a wide net for Super Duty truck sales .

F600  answers  F650 gasoline buyers' needs up to 22,000 lb GVR but Ford is also offering F650 and F750 buyers the 7.3 V8 gasoline engine and 6.7 Powerstroke  with 6AT. Ford also has a version of F750 that just touches into class 8 but the 6.7 powerstroke  diesel sales are comparatively low in class 6 and 7/8, suggesting that it's either too small, to expensive or just not prepared to take the risk.  To compete at this level, Fotd needs the cargo's 9 liter and 13 liter Duratorq engines. Heck, even a gasoline or LPG version of the 9 liter or 13 liter Duratorq I-6 would do to feel out class 7 sales.

Edited by jpd80

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 From Transport Topics.  More on Paccars view on cab overs.

In related news, Kenworth Truck Co. announced an expanded list of options for its Class 7 medium-duty cabover models.

For the Kenworth K370 Class 7 cabover, these options include the Dana Spicer S23-172E 23K high-entry axle, Reyco 23,000-pound rear suspension, Dana 1710 driveline series, 8,000-pound lift-axle pusher, pusher tires and wheels, and upsized park and spring brakes. These options are appropriate for heavy freight delivery, dump trucks, small concrete mixers and cranes, while also opening the door for other vocational uses, such as a larger concrete mixers or 43,000-pound dump applications.

The Kenworth cabover has 55-degree wheel cut for a tight turning radius, which aids in maneuverability when operating in crowded urban environments, according to the Kirkland, Wash.-based company, a unit of Paccar Inc.

“It will be fun to see [heavier cabovers] come back into the marketplace. In 2005 or 2006, before the housing bubble imploded, I think all the mainstream manufacturers had announced cabovers, and the timing of the introduction could not have been worse,” he said. “It fell apart just as they were getting their trucks to market, so, they tucked tail and ran.”

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I always thought that part of the Blue Diamond LCF lack of success was simply low demand.  Has that changed ?

Edited by theoldwizard

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58 minutes ago, theoldwizard said:

I always thought that part of the Blue Diamond LCF lack of success was simply low demand.  Has that changed ?

I think the only thing that hurt the LCF was its 6 cyl Power Stroke.  Again, chop 2 cylinders off of a V-8 that was a PR nightmare and you have a smaller nightmare.  As for the LCF competition, Isuzu seemed to be doing well at that time.  I have never heard anyone ever complaining about their Isuzu.

I'm afraid once the Chevy dealers get up to speed with their range of Chevy badged Isuzus, they will make a dent in Ford's class 4, 5 and 6 numbers.  To say nothing of the impact of the new CGM/Navistar conventional trucks in class 4,5 and 6.   The 7.3 V-8 and F-600 can't get here soon enough-in particular the 7.3.  I hear more and more stories about guys getting fed up with diesel cost of ownership when  they don't have the savings from supposed MPG improvements as they just don't run the annual mileage.   Amazing what a 6 buck calculator can save a guy when they use it.

 

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