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On 1/7/2019 at 9:07 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

 

You have to wonder why not?  The 650 is available as a low pro with 19.5 wheels.  Many departments have gone to larger units like F'liner M-2s and International 4400's   My guess is $$$

I know in this particular squad's case, the difference in the F-550 & the Freightliner was about $30K.  No one around here even considers the F-650.  F-450 & 550 sells well, but even squads that were loyal International customers have gone Freightliner.

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3 minutes ago, hwyman3 said:

I know in this particular squad's case, the difference in the F-550 & the Freightliner was about $30K.  No one around here even considers the F-650.  F-450 & 550 sells well, but even squads that were loyal International customers have gone Freightliner.

For sure I hear you on the 30K when comparing a 550 with a Freightliner-although I'm surprised it is that much higher-unless  the ambulance package is significantly larger/more expensive.  But if they would consider a 550, makes no sense why they would not be considering a 650 given powertrains are the same-unless they have no confidence in the Power Stroke/Torqueshift combo at the higher gvw of the 650.  Which I must admit, I'm sure many are turned off by the thought of a "pick up powertrain" in a class 6 or 7 truck vs a Cummins/Allison combo.

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8 hours ago, bzcat said:

I think the cab issue is kind of a side show. Isn't the problem with E-series that the chassis can't accept a larger engine/transmission package? And the fact that Ford is so beholden to the aftermarket upfitters that it does what its customers want (which is nothing)?

Right now ford has 3 medium duty platforms while most competitors have 1 or 2. Causal observers and armchair CEOs like us can see that there is opportunity to consolidate your position through economy of scale. But Ford has other considerations...

1. Does its customers really want changes? Remember, who buys the bulk of E-series... it's not the retail customers. Not even fleet managers. Most E-series are ordered by upfitters.

2. The larger F-650 and 750 chassis and cab doesn't have a lot of commonality with F-450 and 550 but does Ford really want to invest in a new chassis that works across the board when its F-650 strategy is a value play? It is the low cost option in the class 6 market so keeping cost low is the first priority.

3. Don't forget the stripped chassis business. Ford sells vast majority of stripped chassis in the US. Ford offers two main family of stripped chassis and one share a large amount of commonality with E-series and the other with F-650 chassis. Stripped chassis are also ordered by upfitters... do these customers want changes?

So thinking about all these factors, I believe Ford will just keep doing minor updates to E-series and F-650. The only missing link here is a suitable diesel for E-series... but sales may not be enough to justify the investment to engineer the 3.0 V6 diesel in there.

 

B'cat-my thoughts on your talking points;

1.Not sure what you mean by "upfitters"  -are these the conversion guys that for example are making airport shuttle buses?  I know in this area there are plenty of dealers who stock E series equipped with what I would call basic cargo boxes as well as all sorts of  "tradesman" bodies-boxes equipped with various side doors/compartments etc.  And in the monthly truck "ad rags" that I get, there are a lot of these trucks at various dealerships.  Significant market.  I should also ad that these same dealerships also stock Transit cut aways but the mounted equipment is always of course smaller.

2. Agree- I would say the only commonality between 650/750 and 450/550 would be what?-instrument panels? seating?  The 450/550 trucks  at OAP are aluminum cabs while the 650/750s are steel- I guess throw in cab glass too?  As to your thought that 650 is a "low cost" truck, it could still be a low cost truck even if it had a new cab if it still offered the 100% Ford power train.  I think the point here is that a new cab design that could accommodate 450/550 as well as 650/750 and E series would have to offer some significant economies of scale.  Tough order to fill-making a cab structure work for all three but certainly not impossible.

3. I don't think the chassis are an issue-other than the new GM/Navistars for sure make the 450/550 dated-in particular with respect to the variety of CA's they offer..  

Again, as I see it, the competition is getting tougher.. I saw on another website a municipality just made a significant order for ambulance chassis' and it went to GM.  The city of Boston FD/EMS was heavy into the old 4500 GM's then when GM bailed out, they went to Navistar briefly with 4400's then to Ford 450/550 but I will bet they will be back with GM.

I would also say, with Ford's  emphasis on ATP,  it seems inconsistent to me that medium duty would be any different.  As I have previously mentioned in another post, Paccar is doing very well in medium duty and judging by what I see around this area medium operators be they tow companies, fuel oil/propane dealers, lumber yards etc, don't bat an eye to buy the Petes and KWs in addition to the f'liners

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18 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

B'cat-my thoughts on your talking points;

1.Not sure what you mean by "upfitters"  -are these the conversion guys that for example are making airport shuttle buses?  I know in this area there are plenty of dealers who stock E series equipped with what I would call basic cargo boxes as well as all sorts of  "tradesman" bodies-boxes equipped with various side doors/compartments etc.  And in the monthly truck "ad rags" that I get, there are a lot of these trucks at various dealerships.  Significant market.  I should also ad that these same dealerships also stock Transit cut aways but the mounted equipment is always of course smaller.

I'm pretty sure those "tradesman" bodies are built/installed by upfitters. Ford sells them the cab and chassis, then the upfitters make/install the ambulance/trade/utility/etc bodies that go on the chassis.

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5 hours ago, SoonerLS said:

I'm pretty sure those "tradesman" bodies are built/installed by upfitters. Ford sells them the cab and chassis, then the upfitters make/install the ambulance/trade/utility/etc bodies that go on the chassis.

For sure, but I was trying to make a distinction between those "upfitters" and what I would call the "specialty upfitters like the airport shuttles, school buses etc that I think Bzcat was referring to.  

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On 1/8/2019 at 10:16 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

For sure I hear you on the 30K when comparing a 550 with a Freightliner-although I'm surprised it is that much higher-unless  the ambulance package is significantly larger/more expensive.  But if they would consider a 550, makes no sense why they would not be considering a 650 given powertrains are the same-unless they have no confidence in the Power Stroke/Torqueshift combo at the higher gvw of the 650.  Which I must admit, I'm sure many are turned off by the thought of a "pick up powertrain" in a class 6 or 7 truck vs a Cummins/Allison combo.

In the case of this particular unit, they already have 2 Freightliners with Cummins 6.7/Allison 3000 combo.  The new one will have a Detroit/Allison 2000 combo.  I think this choice had more to do with people wanting a Freightliner over anything else and no other chassis had a chance

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11 hours ago, hwyman3 said:

In the case of this particular unit, they already have 2 Freightliners with Cummins 6.7/Allison 3000 combo.  The new one will have a Detroit/Allison 2000 combo.  I think this choice had more to do with people wanting a Freightliner over anything else and no other chassis had a chance

 I do believe that is known as "Large Car Disease".  If it doesn't have a Pete, KW or F'liner badge by definition it is not a "big truck".   Ford never learned that lesson when they spent all the money on HN-80.  They should have stuck with the true vocational and fleet truck market and saved a lot of money by not trying to convince the owner operator market that a Ford was a good alternative to a Pete.  IMO better to sell 500 tandem tractors to ABF than 10 high roof sleepers.  Not to say there were not owner operators who bought them-its just that they were a minority.

11 hours ago, hwyman3 said:

 

 

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7 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 I do believe that is known as "Large Car Disease".  If it doesn't have a Pete, KW or F'liner badge by definition it is not a "big truck".   Ford never learned that lesson when they spent all the money on HN-80.  They should have stuck with the true vocational and fleet truck market and saved a lot of money by not trying to convince the owner operator market that a Ford was a good alternative to a Pete.  IMO better to sell 500 tandem tractors to ABF than 10 high roof sleepers.  Not to say there were not owner operators who bought them-its just that they were a minority.

 

Sometimes a bit more than that. Around here if you cannot get a Cummins in it , the departments do not want it. Sort of like "the Cummins/Allison has worked so well over the years, why change".

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2 hours ago, lfeg said:

Sometimes a bit more than that. Around here if you cannot get a Cummins in it , the departments do not want it. Sort of like "the Cummins/Allison has worked so well over the years, why change".

For sure on the Cummins/Allison combo which I have been advocating that Ford should once again offer in 650/750.  No doubt those who oppose this will quickly emphasize how much Ford makes on the in house power train.  No doubt.  The issue is how many sales are lost because of the failure to offer this combo?

Another good example of the  Cummins/Allison match -I'm told by a DPW guy that  a lot of municipalities around here are going to Mack Granites with Cummins power.  Now for sure Mack has always preached  "integrated power train"-even in the Volvo era.  But this is a matter of satisfying a market to them and they have responded accordingly.

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15 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

For sure on the Cummins/Allison combo which I have been advocating that Ford should once again offer in 650/750.  No doubt those who oppose this will quickly emphasize how

Fixed....It would be the "all Ford" powertrain in F650 and if you wanted a Cummins/Allison combo, you need move to F750....That would be a reasonable move if Ford continues to not to want to bring over some of the bigger Turkish Ecotorq motors with an Eaton transmission behind it like that do all their other markets...

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2 hours ago, twintornados said:

Forget (ok, don't "forget") class 6/7...the new GM/Navistar offering is going after class 4/5 hard1501146854_Screenshot_2019-01-12CVSeriesClass45TruckInternationalTrucks.thumb.png.91bf9930c6079ef86e13b6b55bf39735.png...


https://www.internationaltrucks.com/trucks/cv-series

Oh for sure. I checked out the local Altech yard yesterday.  I would say they are down to about 50 450/550's awaiting bodies. Not a Dodge on the property. Again the class 7,8's mostly F'liners and Internationals but also a lot of Western Stars.  Interesting thing is there were quite a few tri axles.  I can't imagine what sort of bucket truck would need a tri vs. a tandem.    be interesting to see what goes on these things.

But back to International, I was watching a video of a test drive with I assume a member of the press behind the wheel.  The Navistar guy that was with him started talking about how the ..."Altech people liked so many of the features".  And by the way the truck they were in was set up with a roll back but I did notice one in the background with an Altech bucket on it.

I also watched a video of the dealer intro to the truck.  Needless to say, in addition to all the enhanced features-as International views the world😎-they were quick to mention their dealer network where the customer will not be waiting in line behind a bunch of cars or "personal trucks" awaiting service.

One interesting thing is the trucks will NOT at least for now have Internationals multi plex wiring system.  I guess that was the GM influence.

Bottom line, as I've said before Ford's market share will go down in 4,5 and 6.  Question is to what degree.=

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2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Oh for sure. I checked out the local Altech yard yesterday.  I would say they are down to about 50 450/550's awaiting bodies. Not a Dodge on the property. Again the class 7,8's mostly F'liners and Internationals but also a lot of Western Stars.  Interesting thing is there were quite a few tri axles.  I can't imagine what sort of bucket truck would need a tri vs. a tandem.    be interesting to see what goes on these things.

But back to International, I was watching a video of a test drive with I assume a member of the press behind the wheel.  The Navistar guy that was with him started talking about how the ..."Altech people liked so many of the features".  And by the way the truck they were in was set up with a roll back but I did notice one in the background with an Altech bucket on it.

I also watched a video of the dealer intro to the truck.  Needless to say, in addition to all the enhanced features-as International views the world😎-they were quick to mention their dealer network where the customer will not be waiting in line behind a bunch of cars or "personal trucks" awaiting service.

One interesting thing is the trucks will NOT at least for now have Internationals multi plex wiring system.  I guess that was the GM influence.

Bottom line, as I've said before Ford's market share will go down in 4,5 and 6.  Question is to what degree.=

From what I've seen, they are using a Duramax Engine (GM), Allison 1000 Trans, Silverado cab, did not use the International multi-plex wiring system.  I wonder what did International bring to this JV?  Frame rails?

Edited by hwyman3

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2 hours ago, hwyman3 said:

From what I've seen, they are using a Duramax Engine (GM), Allison 1000 Trans, Silverado cab, did not use the International multi-plex wiring system.  I wonder what did International bring to this JV?  Frame rails?

I believe International did the bulk of the design /engineering and the trucks are built by International

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So, what would International CV truck offer that the MV line already has? Both are "medium duty" designation.....I would think that anyone considering International for their medium duty needs would likely go with the MV series.

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Didn't know International and the Chevy were going to share the vehicle.

They did not even bother to change the design?

 

 

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28 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

Didn't know International and the Chevy were going to share the vehicle.

They did not even bother to change the design?

 

 

The snout is different as are the badges....other than that? Not so much....

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4 hours ago, twintornados said:

So, what would International CV truck offer that the MV line already has? Both are "medium duty" designation.....I would think that anyone considering International for their medium duty needs would likely go with the MV series.

I believe in International's thinking, this is supposed to replace the Terrastar mainly for Class 4 & 5.  

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1 hour ago, hwyman3 said:

I believe in International's thinking, this is supposed to replace the Terrastar mainly for Class 4 & 5.  

MV has a Cummins I-6 diesel as standard....I would think that most of the "entrenched" International users would prefer that over the Duramax...my opinion is that with both of these trucks basically in the same market slot and the fact that the MV can also be had with an uprated 9L Cummins would make it hard to beat for its intended target.

I see the International CV series as nothing more that a re-imaging of the late Sterling Bullet....

 

Edited by twintornados

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1 hour ago, hwyman3 said:

I believe in International's thinking, this is supposed to replace the Terrastar mainly for Class 4 & 5.  

Correct-and the Terrastar was I do believe powered by International's version of the 6.4

10 minutes ago, twintornados said:

MV has a Cummins I-6 diesel as standard....I would think that most of the "entrenched" International users would prefer that over the Duramax...my opinion is that with both of these trucks basically in the same market slot and the fact that the MV can also be had with an uprated 9L Cummins would make it hard to beat for its intended target.

Again, the new trucks are class 4,5.  I don't think International is selling the class 6 version (22,000 lb max GVW)  So keeping it in perspective the CV is a direct competitor of 450/550 and Dodge 4500/5500.

The MV is a serious class 6.7.

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10 minutes ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Correct-and the Terrastar was I do believe powered by International's version of the 6.4

Again, the new trucks are class 4,5.  I don't think International is selling the class 6 version (22,000 lb max GVW)  So keeping it in perspective the CV is a direct competitor of 450/550 and Dodge 4500/5500.

The MV is a serious class 6.7.

Ok, I see that they are class 6/7....it will be interesting to see how these "badge engineered" GM trucks sell in the market when you can go over to the Chevrolet truck dealer and get it for, what I will predict, will be a substantial price advantage. That is all these really are is just a GM truck with an International badge/snout on it. I would think they would at least offer the 6.7L Cummins diesel in them to differentiate them from their Chevrolet "cousins"....

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27 minutes ago, twintornados said:

Ok, I see that they are class 6/7....it will be interesting to see how these "badge engineered" GM trucks sell in the market when you can go over to the Chevrolet truck dealer and get it for, what I will predict, will be a substantial price advantage. That is all these really are is just a GM truck with an International badge/snout on it. I would think they would at least offer the 6.7L Cummins diesel in them to differentiate them from their Chevrolet "cousins"....

I think the Internationals will do very well with anyone who currently operates class 6 and 7 trucks.  As I have said,  the Bluediamond Ford 750's did well with the Utilities when they had the Cummins/Allison power train.  The OAP 750's have virtually the same specs-frames, axles etc. What they don't have is the Cummins/Allison combo and that is hurting them..  In any case the utilities up here (National Grid, Eversource) are buying International and F'liners for their heavy class 7 line trucks.  I would think the CV will be a big hit with them as it will be one stop shopping.

Stay tuned for what starts showing up at the local Altech yard.

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7 hours ago, twintornados said:

MV has a Cummins I-6 diesel as standard....I would think that most of the "entrenched" International users would prefer that over the Duramax...my opinion is that with both of these trucks basically in the same market slot and the fact that the MV can also be had with an uprated 9L Cummins would make it hard to beat for its intended target.

I see the International CV series as nothing more that a re-imaging of the late Sterling Bullet....

 

No, they are not in same market, much like the F-450/550 market is different than the F-650/750 market. 

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6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

No, they are not in same market, much like the F-450/550 market is different than the F-650/750 market. 

Yup 7M3, Bob R corrected me....

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