Bob Rosadini Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Yeah, I wouldn't compare the 4.5L for the LCF to what could come from the 6.7L. I thought it was an overall good engine with the exception being that it did not meet NVH requirements for the intended use in the F150. It's quite possible a V6 off the 6.7L wouldn't be smooth enough, so it may not be an option, but think of the economies of scale that could be had by building that engine with the same bore spacing, same (nearly) everything internally, etc. So much tooling is already complete and they should be able to machine and assemble it on the same lines. To me, that would be a perfect engine for the F2/350 trucks as I feel the 6.7L is just overkill. Agree-we have a catch 22 situation-no doubt big plus to use the 6.7 from a cost savings perspective. I have no clue how difficult it is to maintain the "balance" when all this is done. How about another wild thought? Cut off a bank (new bore and stroke?) and build a 4 cyl- shades of Harvester in the 60's with the Scout motor which was half of a 304 V-8-plus plenty of other engines have I believe had same surgery done. And as others have suggested (7M3,Olwiz) no doubt there is a need for a smaller engine than having the 6.7 as only option. The HP/Torque race is a bit of a joke at this point. 6.7 is a great motor when you have a 550 utility truck with a bucket, or a 3-4 yard dump and a 16' skid steer trailer, but what about a 250 that does not approach those kind of GVW/GCW numbers Again advantage to developing an inline, be it 4, 5 or 6 cylinders is in the potential chassis IT might serve IMO. As for the 5cyl Power Stroke, I believe others have posted is it at its Max cube wise?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 The HP/Torque race is a bit of a joke at this point. 6.7 is a great motor when you have a 550 utility truck with a bucket, or a 3-4 yard dump and a 16' skid steer trailer, but what about a 250 that does not approach those kind of GVW/GCW numbers Agreed! I long for something that can pull my fifth wheel (about 9500 lb or so loaded) but get good fuel economy empty. I don't need 500 HP and 1000 ft-lbs. That's just ludicrous! How about another wild thought? Cut off a bank (new bore and stroke?) and build a 4 cyl- shades of Harvester in the 60's with the Scout motor which was half of a 304 V-8-plus plenty of other engines have I believe had same surgery done. I was thinking the same thing. An I4 that puts out 275/500 would be perfect in an F150, and a great base diesel in a Super Duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Yeah, I wouldn't compare the 4.5L for the LCF to what could come from the 6.7L. I thought it was an overall good engine with the exception being that it did not meet NVH requirements for the intended use in the F150. It's quite possible a V6 off the 6.7L wouldn't be smooth enough, so it may not be an option, but think of the economies of scale that could be had by building that engine with the same bore spacing, same (nearly) everything internally, etc. So much tooling is already complete and they should be able to machine and assemble it on the same lines. To me, that would be a perfect engine for the F2/350 trucks as I feel the 6.7L is just overkill. What about making a slant 4 (one bank of the 6.7) and increasing the stroke to get 3.5 liters? Should work in "commercial" versions of F150 and F250. A 4 is pretty easy to balance, and packaging a slant 4 might be easier than an upright 4 or 5 in applications designed for V6 or V8. The greenhouse gas emission limits will be tightening mighty fast in a few years. Edited March 31, 2016 by lfeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted March 31, 2016 Share Posted March 31, 2016 Question! When does the 650/750 adopt the 2017 Super Duty aluminum cab???? It is a question or prediction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 (edited) What about making a slant 4 (one bank of the 6.7) and increasing the stroke to get 3.5 liters? Should work in "commercial" versions of F150 and F250. A 4 is pretty easy to balance, and packaging a slant 4 might be easier than an upright 4 or 5 in applications designed for V6 or V8. The greenhouse gas emission limits will be tightening mighty fast in a few years. . Why go through all that to obtain 3.5L when the I-5 Powerstroke (nee Duratorq) is already sitting at 3.2L....increase the bore a smidge and BOOM...3.5L. I personally think it can go to 4.0-4.5L with little problem. it is a great powerplant. Edited April 1, 2016 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Question! When does the 650/750 adopt the 2017 Super Duty aluminum cab???? It is a question or prediction? good question but I am one of those that believes with Super Duty and 150 sharing same cab components-they are correct?- the 650/750 will end up with a unique cab that will serve 650/750/"850??" as well as whatever replaces the E-450 cutaway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 good question but I am one of those that believes with Super Duty and 150 sharing same cab components-they are correct?- the 650/750 will end up with a unique cab that will serve 650/750/"850??" as well as whatever replaces the E-450 cutaway. I used to think that, but no so much anymore. I think the E series cutaway dies and the replacement is Transit-based. If 450 and 550 chassis cabs move to Avon Lake those aluminum Super Duty cabs will be in the building.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I used to think that, but no so much anymore. I think the E series cutaway dies and the replacement is Transit-based. If 450 and 550 chassis cabs move to Avon Lake those aluminum Super Duty cabs will be in the building.......... Assuming that the chassis cab 450 and 550 are built with aluminum cabs. The Transit's front is unibody. Adapting it to a BOF construction would be difficult. Plus the Transit's windshield rake is, if anything, steeper than the E-450 and Super Duty and that makes them less suitable for MD use, not more suited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 And Freightliner is already talking up the visibility issues w/the 650/750. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 I used to think that, but no so much anymore. I think the E series cutaway dies and the replacement is Transit-based. If 450 and 550 chassis cabs move to Avon Lake those aluminum Super Duty cabs will be in the building.......... Keep in mind, IMO, you need a significant chassis when you start talking 19,000 lbs gvw. Remember the E-550? not only a chassis but a conventional solid axle and leaf springs! Dealer friends of mine were very disappointed when they dropped that series after only about a year or so of production. And as for the SD cabs "being in the building" at OAP, I believe I posted quite a while back that the 450-550 could very easily morph into the true medium family. Remember, how many years ago was it that the true "pick up" cab stopped at 350-there was no Super duty 450-550. My bet is that shipping cabs to OAP from KTP will be a short term thing. And 650-750 will continue with the old steel cab until the new purpose built "Medium" structure arrives for 450-750 (850 tandem?) Assuming that the chassis cab 450 and 550 are built with aluminum cabs. The Transit's front is unibody. Adapting it to a BOF construction would be difficult. Plus the Transit's windshield rake is, if anything, steeper than the E-450 and Super Duty and that makes them less suitable for MD use, not more suited. Agree- I initially thought the Transit glass house would be utilized but have come to the realization that there is no way you are going to get a high seating position and good forward line of sight with that glass structure. And Freightliner is already talking up the visibility issues w/the 650/750. For sure. Freightliner's marketing efforts are singling out 650's poorer forward visibility versus their 106/SD's. And its ironic, You "young guys" would probably not remember when the Louisville came out. Ford's ad copy featured great visibility associated with a high seating position and that big almost verticle windshield. What did International do? Started advertising their medium duty 1600-1800 Loadstars with LOWER cab heights that meant "Less climbing in P & D service versus Ford's high cab structure". Plus they claimed their .."smaller doors" were less susceptible to damage in tight quarters"-or words to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Assuming that the chassis cab 450 and 550 are built with aluminum cabs. The Transit's front is unibody. Adapting it to a BOF construction would be difficult. Plus the Transit's windshield rake is, if anything, steeper than the E-450 and Super Duty and that makes them less suitable for MD use, not more suited. Yup, the 2017 450/550 will have aluminum cabs, same as the 250/350. Agreed he Transit 'cab' my not be ideal, but I think Ford will put cost over functionality. Should be O.K. for a class 4/5 cutaway. Ford has already trademarked 'T-450' and 'T-550'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) Yup, the 2017 450/550 will have aluminum cabs, same as the 250/350. Agreed he Transit 'cab' my not be ideal, but I think Ford will put cost over functionality. Should be O.K. for a class 4/5 cutaway. Ford has already trademarked 'T-450' and 'T-550'. Do you know that for sure? Ford isn't going to be installing an aluminum body shop at OHAP, and it seems unlikely that they're going to ship fully assembled cabs from KTP to OHAP. Furthermore, Ford is going to be stamping old steel super duty cabs for quite a while for the collision repair industry. Ford has also maintained their trademarks on Edsel and Mercury. Doesn't mean that either of those things are making a comeback. Edited April 3, 2016 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 I wonder what the plan will be regarding the Super Dutys chassis cab production that about to begin at OHAP Will Ford keep those cabs as steel or switch to aluminum, that may be the decider for the MDs... , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Yup, the 2017 450/550 will have aluminum cabs, same as the 250/350. Agreed he Transit 'cab' my not be ideal, but I think Ford will put cost over functionality. Should be O.K. for a class 4/5 cutaway. Ford has already trademarked 'T-450' and 'T-550'. Keep in mind-"chassis cab" 450-550 goes to OAP. Does that mean the 450 dually pick up stays at KTP? If so I can't imagine it getting a steel cab while the rest of the line gets an aluminum cab. As for Ford putting cost over functionality, again when you combine 450-750 it is not an insignificant number. And functionality IS a big issue IMO. You are talking about a class of trucks that if anything employs the least capable drivers. If I'm a business owner, I am going to pay attention to..."our truck offers the best visibility and line of vision for your drivers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 If Ford puts an aluminum body shop in at Ohio truck, that will secure the future of that plant and indicate that medium duty will join the aluminum revolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Keep in mind-"chassis cab" 450-550 goes to OAP. Does that mean the 450 dually pick up stays at KTP? If so I can't imagine it getting a steel cab while the rest of the line gets an aluminum cab. Why not? They already put different frames under the 450 pickup and the 450 cab/chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Do you know that for sure? Ford isn't going to be installing an aluminum body shop at OHAP, and it seems unlikely that they're going to ship fully assembled cabs from KTP to OHAP. Furthermore, Ford is going to be stamping old steel super duty cabs for quite a while for the collision repair industry. Ford has also maintained their trademarks on Edsel and Mercury. Doesn't mean that either of those things are making a comeback. 'My sources tell me....' It looks to me like Louisville will be shipping complete cabs to Avon Lake, much like they were to Navistar Escobedo. Agreed about trademarks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Why not? They already put different frames under the 450 pickup and the 450 cab/chassis. So therefore, the 450 dually will have an aluminum cab and the 450-550 chassis built at OAP will have?? Aluminum? while 650-750 get a Steel cab? Again if 450 dually is built with AL cab, I find it hard to believe there will NOT be a new cab for 450-750 chassis at OAP. Again back to my original point-150-350 were a distinct cab before the advent of 450-550. You went from 350 to 600. The move of 450-550 chassis to OAP IMO is indication to me that we will be back to two cab structures-one for 150-350 and another for medium conventionals (450-750 and ???) with variations of that cab's components used to build the "T-450-550 or whatever evolves as the heavy cut away chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Shipping assembled cabs (less "front clip") is not that difficult. Just a run up I 71. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 So therefore, the 450 dually will have an aluminum cab and the 450-550 chassis built at OAP will have?? Aluminum? while 650-750 get a Steel cab? Again if 450 dually is built with AL cab, I find it hard to believe there will NOT be a new cab for 450-750 chassis at OAP. Again back to my original point-150-350 were a distinct cab before the advent of 450-550. You went from 350 to 600. The move of 450-550 chassis to OAP IMO is indication to me that we will be back to two cab structures-one for 150-350 and another for medium conventionals (450-750 and ???) with variations of that cab's components used to build the "T-450-550 or whatever evolves as the heavy cut away chassis. My assumption is that every cab at OHAP from the 450 chassis up to the 750 will be made of the same material. I'm also assuming that material will be steel because it's cheaper and there's minimal incentive to shave weight from the cab in that arena. The 450 pickup will remain as closely related to the F250/350 as it has been in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 My assumption is that every cab at OHAP from the 450 chassis up to the 750 will be made of the same material. I'm also assuming that material will be steel because it's cheaper and there's minimal incentive to shave weight from the cab in that arena. The 450 pickup will remain as closely related to the F250/350 as it has been in the past. Agree that they will be the same cab. What I'm also saying is that it WILL be a completely new cab. We are going back to pre 450-550 Super Duty days (Pre19??) when150-350 were one cab and F-600 to F-800 were another. and of course Louisvilles were the true big trucks -class 7 and 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Agree that they will be the same cab. What I'm also saying is that it WILL be a completely new cab. We are going back to pre 450-550 Super Duty days (Pre19??) when150-350 were one cab and F-600 to F-800 were another. and of course Louisvilles were the true big trucks -class 7 and 8. Eventually a new cab. But not this year. I don't think they're going to mount steel 650/750 cabs and aluminum 450/550 cabs on the same line, shipping both steel and aluminum over from KTP. I think it will be all one or all the other. The old steel cab for now, and the new cab eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Ford has already stated the chassis cabs will be Al based on their 'we saved weight and invested it in the frame' statements while referencing the pickup and C&C trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted April 4, 2016 Author Share Posted April 4, 2016 Bob..........were you referring to the latest soda tractor trailer with the blue trailer, not the red one? I just saw the ad in a couple of construction magazines. I guess it lets the potential customers know they make a tractor, but it would be nice if they had the tractor hauling a flatbed with some contruction equipment on it! I'd like to see a 4 door tractor with a fire pump hauling a tiller ladder! New York, Chicago etc. could save a lot of money on tractors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Bob..........were you referring to the latest soda tractor trailer with the blue trailer, not the red one? I just saw the ad in a couple of construction magazines. I guess it lets the potential customers know they make a tractor, but it would be nice if they had the tractor hauling a flatbed with some contruction equipment on it! I'd like to see a 4 door tractor with a fire pump hauling a tiller ladder! New York, Chicago etc. could save a lot of money on tractors! Joe, I don't recall which one it was. I was just pleased to see they finally woke up to the fact that the typical guy humping beer or soda is lucky if he has a helper-never mind three! and I agree, would be nice if they tailored the ad copy to the publication they are appearing in. As for tiller ladders, IMO hope they find a market in Rescues and quick response brush trucks and mini-pumpers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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