New Light & Medium Duty News

[theoldwizard]

My bet however is the lack of an alternative to the Power Stroke/Torque Shift will continue to hurt Ford in class 7 until some good reports begin to surface on the success of that combo.

I still think there is an unfulfilled demand for a large petrol engine medium-duty truck. The manufacturer who comes up with a petrol engine with the "necessary" hp and torque is going to sell a lot of them.

[Bob Rosadini]

I still think there is an unfulfilled demand for a large petrol engine medium-duty truck. The manufacturer who comes up with a petrol engine with the "necessary" hp and torque is going to sell a lot of them.

Agree 100% That is why in my post I'm asking what the % of gas vs. diesel is in that 650 sales figure.

 

Dealer friend of mine agrees with what many of us have said. No way a lot of operators in class 6 can justify the upfront diesel premium given their annual mileage.

 

Same situation exists in class 7. And likewise in the lower end of class 8. An operator may need a tandem as his gross exceeds 33,000 (or 35,000-max for most states on two axles) but he doesn't need the power/fuel economy of diesel given up front premium and his low annual mileage.

 

Same question exists with the durability of the 6.8/Torqueshift at the higher gvws.

[fordmantpw]

Would a 6.2L with a single turbo work in a MD truck for that type of customer? Assuming the cooling issues were resolved, obviously.

[RichardJensen]

My bet however is the lack of an alternative to the Power Stroke/Torque Shift will continue to hurt Ford in class 7

 

I think Ford's plan at this point is to establish a solid beachhead in Class 6 in order to field a much better Class 7 offering in the future. I think right now they're content with a token presence in that segment.

[7Mary3]

The numbers are encouraging and not surprising. It looks like the truck has made significant inroads in class 6 and is a bit player in class 7. Consider that most of class 6 is generic box/flat and much of that is rental. Right where the F-650 is targeted. Class 7 is a different beast, aside from some heavier flats and 'beer tractors', a big percentage of that market is specialized vocational. Naturally that is where the limited powertrain options of the F-750 will be a hindrance.

 

It may be true that the F-650's sales success is due to a few very large orders from rental fleets. Not a bad thing at all. For an example, do any of you old timers remember the GMC Brigadier? Do you know that truck outsold the comparable Ford Louisville's by a considerable margin through the 1980's? It did, and it was all due to a couple of large fleets, one being Yellow. Yellow figured out that for them, a Brigadier with an L10 Cummins was the most economical short haul tractor to own and operate. They bought 1000's, and even after GM merged their heavy truck operations with Volvo Brigadiers stayed in production for a number of years.

[Bob Rosadini]

The numbers are encouraging and not surprising. It looks like the truck has made significant inroads in class 6 and is a bit player in class 7. Consider that most of class 6 is generic box/flat and much of that is rental. Right where the F-650 is targeted. Class 7 is a different beast, aside from some heavier flats and 'beer tractors', a big percentage of that market is specialized vocational. Naturally that is where the limited powertrain options of the F-750 will be a hindrance.

 

It may be true that the F-650's sales success is due to a few very large orders from rental fleets. Not a bad thing at all. For an example, do any of you old timers remember the GMC Brigadier? Do you know that truck outsold the comparable Ford Louisville's by a considerable margin through the 1980's? It did, and it was all due to a couple of large fleets, one being Yellow. Yellow figured out that for them, a Brigadier with an L10 Cummins was the most economical short haul tractor to own and operate. They bought 1000's, and even after GM merged their heavy truck operations with Volvo Brigadiers stayed in production for a number of years.

 

 

7m3- Admit it-you are a closet GM fan lurking on a Ford site For sure I remember the Brigadier- We never bought any but DID have one General that GM gave us for a year for a buck! We never bought any but it was a nice driving truck. And we did have a few of the Brigadier's predecessor- J?- but with 8V-71s. I think when they jacked the cab up to fit the 8v they compromised the cab structure.

 

No doubt Yellow had a lot of Brigadiers but I am going to head to the attic to see if I can find an early 80's issue of HDT to check out sales stats.

 

In any case-Ford-GMC-Harvester-it was always a 3 way dog fight!

[hwyman3]

And now this was announced by Frieghtliner today. Not sure if this really is due to declining sales, or if they want to move more production to Mexico. We currently have 2 Freightliner M2s that were ordered 6 months apart. The first chassis came from North Carolina, second one from Mexico.

 

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/daimler-announces-1250-layoffs-two-truck-plants-nc/nqQb5/?ecmp=wsoctv_social_facebook_2014_sfp

[theoldwizard]

An operator may need a tandem as his gross exceeds 33,000 (or 35,000-max for most states on two axles) but he doesn't need the power/fuel economy of diesel given up front premium and his low annual mileage.

Fuel economy ? Maybe in MD but in any thing less, diesel "fuel economy" has pretty much gone out the window when particulate traps and DEF showed up. Adding in the additional cost of diesel versus gasoline, cost of DEF, additional cost of oil changes and a petrol engine should have a lower operating cost. Edited February 25, 2016 by theoldwizard

[lfeg]

Something I have been following, and it seems to fit here. The county transit authority has a fleet of small buses built on cutaways. Between 70 and 80. They were all Ford until Ford discontinued the diesel in the cutaways. They then went to Chevys with the Duramax. They have worked out pretty well except for the expenses due to the emissions equipment. About six month ago GM notified the agency that the diesel will be phased out, and not available in 2017 models. As they replace at least 20 to 30 buses a year, the agency started looking at options. They ruled out gasoline right away (long standing prejudice) and looked at CNG and propane. Having had CNG fueled large buses in the past, they were not thrilled with CNG due to fueling issues, so they seriously looked at propane. What clinched it for propane was that GM said they will be offering a factory installed propane only fuel package on the cutaways starting on the 2017s. That, with the relatively low cost of installing a propane refueling facility, drove the decision to stay with GM and go with propane. The savings on fuel cost and maintenance will be considerable, and the cost savings due to no DEF (about $8,000 per year for the initial propane buses) is a bonus. These are high mileage vehicles, so even in high mileage situations diesel is not a given anymore (and yes, they looked at Sprinter and Transit options, but the Sprinter costs were too high, and the Sprinter and Transit could not meet the spec they go by.)

Edited February 25, 2016 by lfeg

[theoldwizard]

... so they seriously looked at propane. What clinched it for propane was that GM said they will be offering a factory installed propane only fuel package on the cutaways starting on the 2017s. That, with the relatively low cost of installing a propane refueling facility, drove the decision to stay with GM and go with propane. The savings on fuel cost and maintenance will be considerable, and the cost savings due to no DEF (about $8,000 per year for the initial propane buses) is a bonus. These are high mileage vehicles, so even in high mileage situations diesel is not a given anymore

.

Frito-Lay has been using propane on their delivery trucks for YEARS, well before the current drop in price.

 

Propane pricing is weird. Because any fleet needs its own tank(s) and filling equipment, a fleet can negotiate a good annual price with the fuel company because the volume does not change much month-to-month. Conversion costs are much less than CNG (tanks are much cheaper because the pressure is much lower). I have been told that LP, for large fleets has been <$2 GGE for some time. Probably close to $1 GGE now.

[twintornados]

Something I have been following, and it seems to fit here. The county transit authority has a fleet of small buses built on cutaways. Between 70 and 80. They were all Ford until Ford discontinued the diesel in the cutaways. They then went to Chevys with the Duramax. They have worked out pretty well except for the expenses due to the emissions equipment. About six month ago GM notified the agency that the diesel will be phased out, and not available in 2017 models. As they replace at least 20 to 30 buses a year, the agency started looking at options. They ruled out gasoline right away (long standing prejudice) and looked at CNG and propane. Having had CNG fueled large buses in the past, they were not thrilled with CNG due to fueling issues, so they seriously looked at propane. What clinched it for propane was that GM said they will be offering a factory installed propane only fuel package on the cutaways starting on the 2017s. That, with the relatively low cost of installing a propane refueling facility, drove the decision to stay with GM and go with propane. The savings on fuel cost and maintenance will be considerable, and the cost savings due to no DEF (about $8,000 per year for the initial propane buses) is a bonus. These are high mileage vehicles, so even in high mileage situations diesel is not a given anymore (and yes, they looked at Sprinter and Transit options, but the Sprinter costs were too high, and the Sprinter and Transit could not meet the spec they go by.)

.

I am curious as to why your county transit authority didn't consider E-450 cutaway with propane prep?

 

http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/eseries-cutaway/

 

The standard 5.4L Triton^® V8 engine features flex-fuel capability*, meaning it can run on unleaded gasoline, E85 (85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline) or any mix of the two. The 5.4L Triton^® and available 6.8L Triton^® engines are also available with a CNG/Propane Gaseous Engine Prep Package that makes them capable of conversion to compressed natural gas or propane autogas

 

Edited February 25, 2016 by twintornados

[RichardJensen]

Factory installed by GM vs. factory prep/aftermarket installed by Ford.

 

And, probably, familiarity w/GMs at this point.

[twintornados]

Factory installed by GM vs. factory prep/aftermarket installed by Ford.

 

And, probably, familiarity w/GMs at this point.

.

There is nothing on the GM web site regarding this...my bet is it will be a Knapheide program whereas GM will have a Knapheide sub assembly plant on premises and will send the truck there enroute to final destination point for completion.

 

PS: GM has been offering propane prep options for years....here is an article from 2011;

 

http://stnonline.com/technical-data/item/3129-gm-to-offer-single-source-liquefied-propane-cutaway-vans

Edited February 25, 2016 by twintornados

[Bob Rosadini]

I do believe propane was a factory option on KTP 700's 800's "back in the day". Have to believe they should be giving serious thought to this once again. Situation Ifeg described is I'm sure not unique. In particular today, I have to believe there are fewer nuts and bolts "Fleet Managers" out there who started on the shop floor and more and more "FLeet Administrators" who are not capable of dealing with the details or who wear more than one hat and look for the easiest way out.

[lfeg]

.

Frito-Lay has been using propane on their delivery trucks for YEARS, well before the current drop in price.

 

Propane pricing is weird. Because any fleet needs its own tank(s) and filling equipment, a fleet can negotiate a good annual price with the fuel company because the volume does not change much month-to-month. Conversion costs are much less than CNG (tanks are much cheaper because the pressure is much lower). I have been told that LP, for large fleets has been <$2 GGE for some time. Probably close to $1 GGE now.

What also helps here is that there are several large propane distributors in the county and a "hub" for supplying them.

[lfeg]

.

There is nothing on the GM web site regarding this...my bet is it will be a Knapheide program whereas GM will have a Knapheide sub assembly plant on premises and will send the truck there enroute to final destination point for completion.

 

PS: GM has been offering propane prep options for years....here is an article from 2011;

 

http://stnonline.com/technical-data/item/3129-gm-to-offer-single-source-liquefied-propane-cutaway-vans

I do not know how GM will be doing it (it might even be a special option only for fleets who buy in decent quantity), but what really sold the transit authority is that the cutaways leave the assembly plant with a complete turnkey propane fuel system covered by the GM warranty. Then the body upfitter gets them.

[lfeg]

I do believe propane was a factory option on KTP 700's 800's "back in the day". Have to believe they should be giving serious thought to this once again. Situation Ifeg described is I'm sure not unique. In particular today, I have to believe there are fewer nuts and bolts "Fleet Managers" out there who started on the shop floor and more and more "FLeet Administrators" who are not capable of dealing with the details or who wear more than one hat and look for the easiest way out.

Turnkey systems with factory warranty and backup always catch the attention of fleet managers. No one wants to have to deal with the vehicle manufacturer for the drivetrain and a separate outfit for the fuel system. And in todays world, a factory installed system that is certified by the vehicle manufacturer as meeting all applicable govt. standards makes a fleet manager and his/her superiors very comfortable.

[Biker16]

If my organization wasn't so back logged in capital projects, i'd look to move to propane or CNG too.

[7Mary3]

I do not know how GM will be doing it (it might even be a special option only for fleets who buy in decent quantity), but what really sold the transit authority is that the cutaways leave the assembly plant with a complete turnkey propane fuel system covered by the GM warranty. Then the body upfitter gets them.

 

Bingo! Can't beat going to the dealer for parts and service. One other advantage I notice on the 'factory' GM CNG's is that PCM programming, and thus driveability, is better than with aftermarket conversions. This holds true for aftermaket converted GM vehicles as well as Fords.

 

Propane is becoming very popular in student transportation. Cost effective for small districts.

Edited February 26, 2016 by 7Mary3

[lfeg]

.

I am curious as to why your county transit authority didn't consider E-450 cutaway with propane prep?

 

http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/eseries-cutaway/

 

The standard 5.4L Triton^® V8 engine features flex-fuel capability*, meaning it can run on unleaded gasoline, E85 (85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline) or any mix of the two. The 5.4L Triton^® and available 6.8L Triton^® engines are also available with a CNG/Propane Gaseous Engine Prep Package that makes them capable of conversion to compressed natural gas or propane autogas

 

They did not want a propane prep package, They looked at it and decided to go with a turnkey solution. They had problems in the past with third party installed fuel systems on large CNG buses over who covered what when things did not work as planned.

[twintornados]

They did not want a propane prep package, They looked at it and decided to go with a turnkey solution. They had problems in the past with third party installed fuel systems on large CNG buses over who covered what when things did not work as planned.

.

That sounds wonderful, but I have not seen anything in the GM commercial truck pages about "turnkey" system....I do not doubt that GM is going to offer it, but as of now, they do not. GM currently offers the same options as Ford does for gaseous prep.

[Bob Rosadini]

Well I did dig out the March '88 issue of HDT. In the sales stats report (3 mos YTD):

 

Chev Ford GMC Navistar Volvo-GM F'liner

 

 

 

7m3- Admit it-you are a closet GM fan lurking on a Ford site For sure I remember the Brigadier- We never bought any but DID have one General that GM gave us for a year for a buck! We never bought any but it was a nice driving truck. And we did have a few of the Brigadier's predecessor- J?- but with 8V-71s. I think when they jacked the cab up to fit the 8v they compromised the cab structure.

 

No doubt Yellow had a lot of Brigadiers but I am going to head to the attic to see if I can find an early 80's issue of HDT to check out sales stats.

 

In any case-Ford-GMC-Harvester-it was always a 3 way dog fight!

Well I did dig out the March '88 issue of HDT. In the sales stats report (3 mos YTD):

 

Chev Ford GMC Navistar Volvo-GM F'liner

class 6 2,083 2,540 4,200 5,095

class 7 2,310 8,717 4,140 7,778 263

class 8 103 2,984 598 7,939 3,106 6,007,

 

In class 6, GM the big dog, class 7 Ford the leader, class 8, Navistar still holding off F'liner. I should add by '88, the Brigadier was known as the WhiteGMC Brigadier and was sold by Volvo-GM together with the former White products

class 6 2,083 2,540 4,200 5,095

class 7 2,310 8,717 4,140 7,778 263

class 8 103 2,984 598 7,939 3,106 6,007,

 

In class 6, GM the big dog, class 7 Ford the leader, class 8, Navistar still holding off F'liner. I should add by '88, the Brigadier was known as the WhiteGMC Brigadier and was sold by Volvo-GM together with the former White products

[twintornados]

Finally!!!! Got a picture of the truck in the wild....at a Syracuse NY U-Haul dealership. F650 with a V10 gasser....

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by twintornados

[Bob Rosadini]

Finally!!!! Got a picture of the truck in the wild....at a Syracuse NY U-Haul dealership. F650 with a V10 gasser....

 

Plenty of those in the U-haul system now. Local Jerr-Dan wrecker distributor has plenty of F-450 wreckers on the line but the only Ford 650/750's they have are trades. Looks like the chassis of choice for roll backs (class 6,7)-at least at this outfit- is Hino. International and F'liner's also in their yard for installs but Hino looks like the predominant chassis. Then again some of these could be for dealer stock.

 

Looking forward to latest production numbers to see if 650 is still tracking upwards.

[twintornados]

Plenty of those in the U-haul system now. Local Jerr-Dan wrecker distributor has plenty of F-450 wreckers on the line but the only Ford 650/750's they have are trades. Looks like the chassis of choice for roll backs (class 6,7)-at least at this outfit- is Hino. International and F'liner's also in their yard for installs but Hino looks like the predominant chassis. Then again some of these could be for dealer stock.

 

Looking forward to latest production numbers to see if 650 is still tracking upwards.

.

Looks like Nussbaum is offering Ford Medium for their product...

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by twintornados