Edgey Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) Americans won't shell out the type of money on the well equiped small cars sold in Europe. That's why you almost NEVER see the average Euro-box shipped to the US for retail sale. Not even Toyota, Honda, and Nissan do that. The market in the US and Europe are like night and day. One of the reasons the Focus launch was so disasterous is because Ford went to great lengths to increase profitability and lower MSRP of the pricey Euro version by squeezing the North American suppliers. You ended up with a badly cheapened European Focus instead of a car designed with our market in mind. We can only assume that if Ford NA builds the next Focus with Ford EU, they will not repeate the same mistakes. The the quality problems appear to have been resolved and the car has earned high marks for dependability. Edited August 9, 2006 by Edgey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Richard, what happened with the Expedtion is just plain unexcusable. Yes I know it's the leader when it comes to towing capacity and whatnot, amen for that. At the end of the day who cares? Both the new Expy and Navigator look like crap. Hell, the Expy wasn't in the same situation the "new" Explorer or "new" Escape were. Ford NA could've made the Expy look far different than the current model because it shares so little with the previous version and almost borrows everything else from the F150, including its hardpoints. Yet they didn't. They decided to make it look like the old Expy, with the same 80's lines. It looks like shit. The reason I posted that pic is because it tells the whole story. It might be a towing leader, yet the "inferior" product looks like the better buy, and will most likely outsell it based on that fact alone. Side by side that's what the people see and base their decisions on. A lot of magazines already agree with me in their comparisons and declare the GM's as the ones to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) Richard, what happened with the Expedtion is just plain unexcusable. Gee. GM spent more money on a shrinking segment with near fanatic brand loyalty good for them. Tahoe will outsell Expy because it has consistently outsold the Expy since launch. Why? because it was apparently a better product for its audience. Also because it trades off the long-standing reputation of the Suburban. GM could've done far less with the Tahoe and they would still outsell the Expy. Tahoe buyers stay Tahoe buyers, etc. I mean you can think that Ford could've just pulled out all the stops on the Expy, and stolen buyers from the Tahoe, but past sales studies just don't back up that assumption. BOF SUV buyers are very brand loyal. They don't jump ship. Edited August 9, 2006 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Americans won't shell out the type of money on the well equiped small cars sold in Europe. That's why you almost NEVER see the average Euro-box shipped to the US for retail sale. Not even Toyota, Honda, and Nissan do that. The market in the US and Europe are like night and day.. We've went through this before, Ford sells the mk2 Focus in Australia for around the same price as the Mazda3. In Mexico a fully loaded Mondeo costs about the same as a fully loaded Fusion, ditto with the 4 bangers, and so on. Price and profitability-wise, it can be done. Saying "Gee, I went to ford.uk.com and it costs a fortune!" doesn't tell anything, really. Hell, in that thread I was the one doing damage control for Ford NA. The numer one reason why cars like those can't be had in the US, is because of the UAW, and all the costs they bring to the table which affect the entire business case. You just can't keep up with all the demands from those leeches and still have cash left to spread around the vehicle at an attractive price. Completely off-topic example: A videogame system that costs 200 dollars --more often than not-- costs 200 *EUROS* there. Ford doesn't determine prices with a calculator and a conversion, but rather the average income for the region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) Tahoe will outsell Expy because it has consistently outsold the Expy since launch. Why? because it was apparently a better product for its audience. Also because it trades off the long-standing reputation of the Suburban. GM could've done far less with the Tahoe and they would still outsell the Expy. Tahoe buyers stay Tahoe buyers, etc. I mean you can think that Ford could've just pulled out all the stops on the Expy, and stolen buyers from the Tahoe, but past sales studies just don't back up that assumption. BOF SUV buyers are very brand loyal. They don't jump ship. If you noticed, I kinda conceded you that when I talked about the "new" Explorer, "new" Escape, etc. They're annoying BUT understandable decisions. The Expy wasn't on the same boat, so again, what happened with it is just plain unexcusable. You said it yourself, it's a shrinking segment so it was pointless to spend more on it. By that same token, it would've made far more sense to share the same hardpoints to keep costs low, or improve the F150 in every way possible as it was, rather than WASTE money on it by forcing 80's lines into the design, with terrible results. Somehow they managed to make those lines look older than ever. Not even the beltine was respected. They took a stallion and turned it into a donkey. BTW, somehow I'm having a hard time thinking Navigator buyers will stay as "loyal" as you think. Edited August 9, 2006 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 If you noticed, I kinda conceded you that when I talked about the "new" Explorer, "new" Escape, etc. They're annoying BUT understandable decisions. The Expy wasn't on the same boat, so again, what happened with it is just plain unexcusable. You said it yourself, it's a shrinking segment so it was pointless to spend more on it. By that same token, it would've made far more sense to share the same hardpoints to keep costs low, or improve in every way possible the F150 as it was, rather than WASTE money on it by forcing 80's lines into the design, with terrible results. Not even the hardpoints for the doors were respected. They took a stallion and turned it into a donkey. BTW, somehow I'm having a hard time thinking Navigator buyers will stay as "loyal" as you think. 1) In case you missed it, the Explorer is on an all new frame too. 2) Using the 'hardpoints' for a pickup truck with a cab would be to ignore the efficiencies of body-on-frame design. The Expedition body is largely carryover, on the standard length, with the mount points for the body adjusted to the new T1 architecture. There's not much point in talking about the 'hardpoints' of the F150 body, as T1 is entirely unrelated to the F150 body's 'hardpoints' Costs were saved in minimizing tooling changes for the existing Expy/Navi. Successful or not, the Expy and Explorer were both significantly updated (and their architectures were rationalized) only 4 years after entirely new vehicles were launched. This is unprecedented in the segment. The GMT800s went 8 years before being upgraded, the 4Runner is on its 6th year in current form, etc.... SOP for Ford, and the industry, is NOT what you have seen here. Instead, SOP 4 years into a large truck or SUV is no change. These changes may or may not win over new buyers and stave off declines in market sahre. But they are certainly not indicative of certain bad practices Ford has displayed over the past decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcsario Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) I understand that, but the Explorer remained on the same plant. The Expy didn't, so the savings on tooling were either none or minimal. AFAIK, new molds had to be created anyway. When they were converting the old body to the new mount points in CAD, at that stage, they could've sharpened or refined the lines a little bit. The whole process would've costed just as much. Edited August 9, 2006 by pcsario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Hmmmm, I was thinking of buying a used Navigator or Expedition to tow the boat we are buying................ but after seeing the new Expedition, and seeing the improvements to the interior/ride/handling (all test drives written so far are very positive), and the way the 6-speed auto works with the 300hp 5.4............... I will probably buy one of those instead. I think the truck looks nice. It looks like a truck, and has great truck capabilities. In a time where the large SUV market is shrinking more to its core (towing, and truck stuff), I think it is a great move. Far superior to the melted plastic front grille / bumper hanging on the ground / towing capacity along the lines of the Explorer............ Tahoe. BTW, the Tahoe will still outsell it. Always have................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I understand that, but the Explorer remained on the same plant. The Expy didn't, so the savings on tooling were either none or minimal. AFAIK, new molds had to be created anyway. When they were converting the old body to the new mount points in CAD, at that stage, they could've sharpened or refined the lines a little bit. The whole process would've costed just as much. Hasn't the Expy remained at MTP the whole time? As for changing sheetmetal, you were thinking of maybe adding a few creases here and there? You can't change the structural members of the body without having to re-engineer them, and with the timeframe that was in place once Ford management decided to move the Expy to T1--and that Ford wanted the F150 frame to be improved before it was used for the Expy, it was either engineer a LWB model, or re-engineer the body of the SWB model. Absent changes to the body's structure, you can't change the greenhouse, all you can do is add a few more creases to the doors. And since nobody would notice, you'd just be throwing money away. BTW, Ford did engineer quite a few improvements to the F150 frame, before using it on the Expedition. Those changes will show up on the midcycle F150 which also will probably not get all new sheetmetal, but who's doing more in less time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkoesel Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 It's the Volvo 2.5L Turbo I-5...EU Ford is now using it on a few Ford branded vehicles. While Volvo will start phasing in the 3.2L I-6...Ford is getting the left overs. LOL, I guess I should have read the article after the first time I said that I should have read the article. Of course - the Volvo I5. I was thinking Duratec V6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Oh gee, and how many Focus RS, or Falcon extra-super-whatevers got built? 10k a year? Not likely. BTW, how much would any Focus pocket-rocket or Aussie-gas guzzler do for Ford's bottom line? bupkis. you avoided the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Yet they didn't. They decided to make it look like the old Expy, with the same 80's lines. It looks like shit. Personally, I think it looks great! I'm not in the market for a fullsize truck...but if I was.... I actually think it looks VERY different than this: They just changed the right details on it to make it look better, as opposed to the Explorer refresh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Did they do anything to the greenhouse on the Tahoe or Suburbain from the previous gen? I like the new Expy too..I wonder if the the next Explorer refresh will share a similar front end. Ford screwed that one up pretty good, but it looks like it got down the family grill look good on the Expy...hopefully they do the same for the F-150 also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Did they do anything to the greenhouse on the Tahoe or Suburbain from the previous gen? yes they did, the doors are new, and they look new too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 you avoided the question. There wasn't a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bri719 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Yes. Everybody at Ford of North America is an idiot. That's why North America gets the Mustang and the GT 500, and no other continent gets them. need to update this post to include the Shelby GT... by the way does the rest of the world have the Freestyle? what about 500? MKS? Edge? I honestly don't know or can't remember on any of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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