Ford reported to either kill Lincoln or make Lincoln Stang

[BrewfanGRB]

My point is Lincoln can do little details like that and show them off. Lincoln exclusives to separate from the Ford as well as the other things previously mentioned will help Lincoln.

 

It's a silly point, but this brings me back to the heated steering wheel idea. You have to go up 2 levels on the MKZ just for that to even be AVAILABLE. Sure it takes the top trim line, but it's offered on the Altima. It's dumb and not worth necessarily buying/not buying a vehicle over...but how is it now a standard on the MKZ, which starts at 36k MSRP? And another thing...2012 and prior (not sure how far back) had standard heated and cooled seats. Can't get cooled seats on the MKZ without stepping up. Dumb, IMO. I'm not exactly able to swing a new MKZ, but it turns me off of waiting and trying to do an off-lease or otherwise attractive used MKZ.

 

Right now, there are 2 things that make me lean Fusion Titanium next year: X-Plan pricing/ease of purchase (limits on doc fees, no negotiation, etc) plus any rebates and the exterior design. All things considered, the MSRP of the most expensive Altima I could make is within $1000 of the most expensive Fusion. And that's disappointing--not because of the price itself. I can live with a low 30s Fusion. But I get less for the same money. Not cool.

[jpd80]

Perhaps more tangible options like a good hybrid would play to a wider more conducive audience, it looks like Ford

has struck on a great combination of fuel efficiency and fun factor with the latest crop of hybrids, it would be a

shame not to press home that advantage with perhaps a line of performance hybrids that substitute a V6 for the I-4

would result in a guilt free alternative to conventional HP options..

[F250]

IIRC, VW group will spend around $16 Billion for Audi to take on BWW for let's call it 'Total World Domination!'

I am of the opinion that VW group in the search for number one has to be bleeding in the VW and lower brands to keep the hi-end (Audi, Bentley and Porsche) afloat. Even if it is an acceptable loss for long-term gain, I don't think Ford will choose that philosophy. If Ford loses profit-margin or any loss of brand power for Lincoln is not in the cards at least for the next 3 years. Just my 2 cents.

 

remember PAG

[jcthorne]

So when is Lincoln going to overhaul its dealer network into one worthy of a luxury mark? Until the dealer network is at least on par with its competition, the vehicles will not matter. For the moment, most stand alone Lincoln dealers are not even on par with the Ford dealer across town.

 

Without the dealer and parts network to support the brand, there is no value in the price premium over the comparable top line trim Ford product.

 

Been there, done that, drank the koolaid and finally woke up. Hope to go back to Lincoln someday but they have a LONG way to go and vehicles, while important, are not thier worst fault currently.

[Edstock]

So when is Lincoln going to overhaul its dealer network into one worthy of a luxury mark?  Until the dealer network is at least on par with its competition, the vehicles will not matter.  For the moment, most stand alone Lincoln dealers are not even on par with the Ford dealer across town.

 

They're working on it. Check back in another 5 years.

[akirby]

So when is Lincoln going to overhaul its dealer network into one worthy of a luxury mark? Until the dealer network is at least on par with its competition, the vehicles will not matter. For the moment, most stand alone Lincoln dealers are not even on par with the Ford dealer across town.

 

Without the dealer and parts network to support the brand, there is no value in the price premium over the comparable top line trim Ford product.

 

Been there, done that, drank the koolaid and finally woke up. Hope to go back to Lincoln someday but they have a LONG way to go and vehicles, while important, are not thier worst fault currently.

 

They've been working on it for over a year now. It's up to the dealers to spend the money - Ford can't force them and they can't afford to pay for it themselves. It will take several years. The important thing is that it's underway and there is a plan.

[saintlaz1]

 

Then show numbers that refute it. Ford has four models that each handily outsell the combined sales of the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger, and the Mustang is outsold by seven of its Ford brethren.

 

That's good advice, and you should take it. As long as you're not paying for their vehicles and insurance, WTF do you care what anyone else chooses to buy?

 

I don't have numbers, the reason I don't because automakers simply just don't make enough coupes to give people a variety.

 

And relax buddy I care for what people drive because this affects what automakers make.

[akirby]

I don't have numbers, the reason I don't because automakers simply just don't make enough coupes to give people a variety.

 

But there are plenty of coupes available from luxury mfrs and the sales numbers for those simply do not support your case.

 

You can't ignore statistics just because you don't like the answer.

[Hugh]

I'd suggest that you read VW's 2011 annual report and take note of the contribution that exchange rate adjustments made to the company's bottom line.

 

Yes, I remember that. To clarify, is 'padding' your numbers better then taking a bailout then carry on business as usual? My point is VW like them or not, is changing like any company should. That said, I don't know if this is the right direction for them. FMC and LMC will not go that way. They will not be number one for the sake of being number one.

[Hugh]

remember PAG

 

Exactly, I should have mentioned that.

[Hugh]

It's a silly point, but this brings me back to the heated steering wheel idea.  You have to go up 2 levels on the MKZ just for that to even be AVAILABLE.  Sure it takes the top trim line, but it's offered on the Altima.  It's dumb and not worth necessarily buying/not buying a vehicle over...but how is it now a standard on the MKZ, which starts at 36k MSRP?  And another thing...2012 and prior (not sure how far back) had standard heated and cooled seats.  Can't get cooled seats on the MKZ without stepping up.  Dumb, IMO.  I'm not exactly able to swing a new MKZ, but it turns me off of waiting and trying to do an off-lease or otherwise attractive used MKZ.

 

Right now, there are 2 things that make me lean Fusion Titanium next year: X-Plan pricing/ease of purchase (limits on doc fees, no negotiation, etc) plus any rebates and the exterior design.  All things considered, the MSRP of the most expensive Altima I could make is within $1000 of the most expensive Fusion.  And that's disappointing--not because of the price itself.  I can live with a low 30s Fusion.  But I get less for the same money.  Not cool.

 

That is the 'democratization' of features which is a current trend in the market. What do you get less of in the Fusion if you don't mind? No heated steering wheel?

[2b2]

quote: Hugh post#47

Second and on topic: IAW the briefing note from LMC at LAIAS: It was 4 new vehicles in 4 years and MKZ is the first. You can draw your own conclusions.

yep

the original 7 in 4 years started with the MKX refresh, then the S & T

 

the 4 in 2 years continues with the Z, next year's C,

& then the "large" sedan and "large" SuvCuv that Mr. Mulally mentioned not long ago.

 

I hope those^ 2 years include unmentioned re-MCE's for the X, S, & T

so they look SOMEWHAT related to the newer stuff

&

I wonder if a 2-for could be done with Navi & Aviator?

 

that way, approx Jan 1, 2015, the speculated RWD could begin with an established base lineup

[Hugh]

quote: Hugh post#47

yep

the original 7 in 4 years started with the MKX refresh, then the S & T

 

the 4 in 2 years continues with the Z, next year's C,

& then the "large" sedan and "large" SuvCuv that Mr. Mulally mentioned not long ago.

 

I hope those^ 2 years include unmentioned re-MCE's for the X, S, & T

so they look SOMEWHAT related to the newer stuff

&

I wonder if a 2-for could be done with Navi & Aviator?

 

that way, approx Jan 1, 2015, the speculated RWD could begin with an established base lineup

Maybe however, the other side of the coin is ''New" could include MCE. It's not a 'new' thing e.g. Toyota Corolla, Camry...

[saintlaz1]

But there are plenty of coupes available from luxury mfrs and the sales numbers for those simply do not support your case.

 

You can't ignore statistics just because you don't like the answer.

All luxury manufactures don't sell that much volume. There is basically one coupe for each of the big three. And one to two coupe for rest of them.

 

The other luxury brands sell super coupes that people can't afford.

[akirby]

All luxury manufactures don't sell that much volume. There is basically one coupe for each of the big three. And one to two coupe for rest of them.

 

The other luxury brands sell super coupes that people can't afford.

 

 

Which proves my point - there isn't much volume to be found in selling an expensive luxury coupe. It's a niche market at best.

[2b2]

Maybe however, the other side of the coin is ''New" could include MCE. It's not a 'new' thing e.g. Toyota Corolla, Camry...

well, Mr. Mulally's "large" sedan could be thought to be the MKS getting another refresh (tho I'm hoping for its bigbrother, the E386, at long last**)

but

a "large" SuvCuv can't realistically be the MKX

so it's the Navi which needs so-much-so-badly OR an Explorer-based Aviator = not both in the next 2 years.

That's why I'm fudging my speculation by pondering an ultralight-F150-based Navigator + a swb version as an Aviator

otherwise, 2 years from now, the basic lineup is still halfbaked-with-holes (imho)

 

 

** could be a partial replacement for the MKT too, the TC part;

while the NaviAvi would replace its 'wagon' part

[Ron W.]

Which proves my point - there isn't much volume to be found in selling an expensive luxury coupe. It's a niche market at best.

 

I've stayed out of this until now, for me the only question is will "it" what ever Lincoln coupe may or my not emerge be profitable.

And with only the the top brass having access to all? the information available to them it's not really up to the consumer.

Either they'll jump in or not, time will tell.

[ZanatWork]

I've seen people wanting new, exciting, RWD Lincolns for years. All of the cool concepts got massive interest, and even if social media is to be just ignored (despite the clear and consistent calls for RWD and halo vehicles always found there...ALWAYS), Lincoln faces those questions form essentially every automotive scribe, analyst, or related talking/blogging head out there. THIS IS NOT NEW. Lincoln's moves to fwd-based vehicles along with the death of their rwd offerings have strangely coincided with the falling sales.

I'm not creating anything, but instead repeating requests and hopes that have been around forever. With Lincoln needing to shake its image of the recent past, why repeat it? A thicker layer of better lipstick, so to speak, will help some-especially if the Fords providing the mechanical bits continue to be very good-but with so many eyes on what's seen to be a reeling company right now, real change will be needed to make a real improvement to perception.

If there was no logic to a specialty car, Lexus would never have bothered with "F" cars, there would be no "R" Audis, no "M" BMWs, no AMG...but those models help bring interest to the rest of the line. Maybe the "Black Label" Lincolns will be their response.

As long as the MKZ and upcoming models/updates do what's required, I'd actually bet on seeing something a bit more bold coming from Lincoln's new design center.

[Hugh]

To use the 2005-10 years of Ford, there was a noticeable difference in Quality, styling, performance and price increase. Just by that alone, it can be assumed Lincoln will use the same foundations with new models, dealerships and differentiation. Yes, I'd agree something more bold will come out of Lincoln.

[RichardJensen]

All of the cool concepts got massive interest

What's the word?

 

Thunderbird:

 

[akirby]

I've seen people wanting new, exciting, RWD Lincolns for years. All of the cool concepts got massive interest, and even if social media is to be just ignored (despite the clear and consistent calls for RWD and halo vehicles always found there...ALWAYS)

 

For the thousandth time - you can't correlate what people SAY they want with what they actually buy. Just go look at the sales figures. The numbers don't lie.

 

If there was no logic to a specialty car, Lexus would never have bothered with "F" cars, there would be no "R" Audis, no "M" BMWs, no AMG...but those models help bring interest to the rest of the line. Maybe the "Black Label" Lincolns will be their response.

 

There IS a place for a Lincoln halo car just like Lexus F, Audi R, BMW M and MB AMG. Just not RIGHT NOW when the brand is trying to rebuild itself from the ground up. What you're saying is that a football team trying to rebuild and having no good players should spend ALL of their money and draft picks on ONE player out of 22. ONE superstar player cannot carry a team if the rest of the team is terrible. You don't rebuild an entire brand by putting all your money and resources into ONE halo car. It's stupid. That money is better spent on 3 or 4 really good vehicles that can be sold in greater volume.

[fordmantpw]

I've seen people wanting new, exciting, RWD Lincolns for years.

I want a Mustang. Will I buy one? Nope. It won't fit my family of 5.

 

You can't build what people want, you have to build what people buy.

[ANTAUS]

I'm so sick of people stating that coupes don't sell and people don't want them this is bs!

 

I agree, And for years we keep hearing that the minivan market is dying, (8 years so far) yet it didn't stop a few other players to come online and build their minivans and the numbers have held steady. And for years we've heard the "personal fwd midsize coupes" was a dying market as well, yet some leave the markets and newer ones come in.

[SoonerLS]

You can't build what people want, you have to build what people buy.

Yep. Being active in the LS community, I see lots of people saying that Lincoln is stupid for not making the LS (or some other RWD car), usually about five minutes after they've complained that they can't afford to spend $400 on a set of coils and plugs--or, even better, the extra $3.60/tank to feed it 91...

[akirby]

I agree, And for years we keep hearing that the minivan market is dying, (8 years so far) yet it didn't stop a few other players to come online and build their minivans and the numbers have held steady. And for years we've heard the "personal fwd midsize coupes" was a dying market as well, yet some leave the markets and newer ones come in.

 

So obviously what Ford needs to build is an expensive RWD diesel powered coupe station wagon that laps the 'Ring in 7:00 flat because that's what EVERYBODY says they should build.

 

Only 5 people would actually buy one but just think of all the bench races it will win and all the kudos from the enthusiasts and media.

 

Some of you people need to learn how to read sales charts.