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Toyota clips Ford as #2


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"Where the hell was the Explorer's 3rd year refresh??? Oh wait it didn't exist!!!! Where the hell was ford's all new explorer after 5 years years???? "

 

Pilot is a car based SUV, not a truck. A true comparison for the Explorer is the 4-Runner or the Pathfinder/Xterra. How 'all new looking' are they??? Trucks cost a ton more to 'restyle' often. The 'all new' 07 Camry now is way cheaper to do than an 'all new truck'.

 

A lot of "car people" whine and still have the 1950's mentality of "I want to see new fins every year". And these people are not even paying customers!

 

Oh, and with Toyota going 6 years on the current Corolla, the "I wanna see new fins" types better brace themselves, the others will follow. So the "3/5" change schedule is not to be expected anymore.

BTW: They are selling well from PERCEPTIONS of economy and reliability, not "NEW looking" cars!

What's Ford going to sell on? Without great styles they won't attract anyone into their vehicles because everyone still believes Ford = Fix or Repair Daily.

 

And anyways the firestone fiasco is still alive in peoples minds, Ford needs to attract new customer and tred old dated designs like they have been doing for the last few decades isn't going to help.

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Richard, if you're trying to make the case that Toyota doesn't know how to update their products and Ford does, I'd say it's time to take your medication. Sales trends prove otherwise.

Know what? I am making that case. For as little as they did to the guts of the Camry, they might as well have left the greenhouse alone as well. re-wrinkling the sheetmetal and bloating the bumpers to grotesque proportions would have worked as well with the old greenhouse as with this one. People aren't buying it because of its looks, they're buying it because it's a Camry.

 

Of course, Toyota can afford to waste that money. That it is a waste, I am convinced.

 

I mean, all they'd have to do to get a little bump in sales (and all they've gotten is a little bump) is push a little harder for fleet volume that Ford is ceding (with the pending cancellation of the Taurus), and raise incentives over last year's levels. I swear I've never seen so many Toyota 'clearance' ads. Shoot. There's a 'clearance' sale being hyped on the Toyota front page right this instant.

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Man, that's clever. Did ya think that up all by yourself? :rolleyes:

Maybe you skipped basic reading comprehension class back in second grade.

 

I simply stated what the public's perception of Ford was and used the very well known saying to make the point that Ford has bad reputation and perception, whether it is true or not doesn't change the fact that people still believe that.

 

You want to be an asshole?

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Know what? I am making that case. For as little as they did to the guts of the Camry, they might as well have left the greenhouse alone as well. re-wrinkling the sheetmetal and bloating the bumpers to grotesque proportions would have worked as well with the old greenhouse as with this one. People aren't buying it because of its looks, they're buying it because it's a Camry.

 

Of course, Toyota can afford to waste that money. That it is a waste, I am convinced.

 

I mean, all they'd have to do to get a little bump in sales (and all they've gotten is a little bump) is push a little harder for fleet volume that Ford is ceding (with the pending cancellation of the Taurus), and raise incentives over last year's levels. I swear I've never seen so many Toyota 'clearance' ads. Shoot. There's a 'clearance' sale being hyped on the Toyota front page right this instant.

 

I know I'm jumping in late but--I'm baffled by the tone of this whole discussion. I think we can all agree that Toyota and Honda are gaining share and making a lot of money, while Ford is losing share and losing money. Clearly they're doing something right and Ford is (still) doing a lot of things wrong.

 

I'm on BON because I love Ford and it breaks my heart to see the company doing a slow slide into oblivion. I suspect most of the others are here for similar reasons. There's nothing wrong with looking at the most successful competition and asking why Ford can't do what they do, as well or better than they do it. And there's no way you can cook the numbers to argue that Ford *is* doing as well as the competition. Ford isn't falling behind because of "perception." Ford is falling behind because of bland product, dodgy quality, slow product updates, and haphazard market strategy.

 

I'd love to see Ford absorb the lessons from Honda and Toyota and get on the warpath. Unfortunately, I still don't see that happening. My wife is interested in getting a minivan. Much as it pains me to say, I'd be crazy to recommend a Freestar over an Odyssey. I have a friend who wants a fun, cheap, small urban car. The Fit meets his needs. Ford is probably still, what, three years away from offering a competitor, even though the company has been talking about this segment for years. Why?

 

I only hope that Ford management really does read these boards and takes the comments seriously. These are the people who *love* Ford, and they are in despair. What about all the other people who have no brand loyalty and just want the newest, coolest, most economical and most reliable thing out there?

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Toyota does a good job keeping the Camry appealing to its market. They know what to do to their products to keep them selling. Ford has a much harder time marketing its products with its current product philosophy, Minimal cosmetic change with a focus on deeper mechanical change. Consumers typically don't respond to autmotive academics; they go after something that looks appealing and has a good reputation. Since Ford has a hard time healing its reputation, it's very hard to invest into products in ways that customers don't see or appreciate. Perhaps over a long period of time, Ford will establish respect from the public by following its current path, but in the interim Ford is going to have a very hard time appealing to consumers if they don't spend enough time on 'packaging' to get them interested.

Edited by Edgey
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They know what to do to their products to keep them selling.

Not necessarily true. Article in today's NYTimes talks about how Toyota crimped engineering during its dramatic growth spurt during the late '90s. An overwhelming number of these new recalls affecting Toyota products are due to design defects. Any efforts today to fix Toyota quality problems will not change the likely design defects that are built into the millions of Toyotas already on the road. Sustained recall volume near the top of the industry will make a definite impact on customer perceptions.

 

The article quoted a surprising statistic saying that Toyota's 1.9M recalled vehicles in Japan in 2005 was about 10 times the second place manufacturer, Nissan. In this country, they have certainly issued more recalls than Ford, this year, if not as many vehicles.

 

It is rather unfair to compare the Explorer to the Camry, given the totally different dynamics of both segment and customer base. One may as well compare the Mustang with the Camry, and note the dramatic surge in Mustang demand, vs. the rather tepid increase in Camry sales.

 

On the whole, it's unrealistic to castigate Ford for past sins. By all rights, the Explorer and Expedition should not have received any new sheetmetal, underpinnings, or anything. Both Explorer and Expedition received substantial updates 4 years after the launch of all new platforms. By contrast the 4Runner and GM SUVs are into year six with no changes worth noting. GM's large SUVs soldiered on for eight years before being updated (and are hardly setting the world on fire), Toyota's Sequoia has never been updated, and the Land Cruiser is a study in ancient design.

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Richard just nailed the point; SUV's and Cars are different venues with different needs. Ford has failed at updating vehicles fast enough in the past, thus the need for homeruns every time they bring out a new product. Toyota is still running the same nameplates from years gone by and still gaining market share and it is based on the perception that Toyota is bring out a new vehicle every three to five years. I do believe that Toyota incorporates more changes into each model more frequently. In other words, instead of pouring billions into a brand new model, Toyota spend several million along the way, I think Ford has been penny smart, dollar foolish in the past this way but it does seem like they are turning the corner.

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Maybe you skipped basic reading comprehension class back in second grade.

 

I simply stated what the public's perception of Ford was and used the very well known saying to make the point that Ford has bad reputation and perception, whether it is true or not doesn't change the fact that people still believe that.

 

You want to be an asshole?

 

Oh chill out. Sheesh!

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Richard just nailed the point; SUV's and Cars are different venues with different needs. Ford has failed at updating vehicles fast enough in the past, thus the need for homeruns every time they bring out a new product. Toyota is still running the same nameplates from years gone by and still gaining market share and it is based on the perception that Toyota is bring out a new vehicle every three to five years. I do believe that Toyota incorporates more changes into each model more frequently. In other words, instead of pouring billions into a brand new model, Toyota spend several million along the way, I think Ford has been penny smart, dollar foolish in the past this way but it does seem like they are turning the corner.

 

Again, the problem here is more than one of perception. Imagine if, over the past 18 months, Ford had introduced not only the 500 and Fusion but also a new series of B-class cars, a completely redesigned Escape, a production version of the Bronco concept, an entry-level RWD Lincoln, a redesigned Ranger, and a complete line of hybrid cars and SUVs. We'd be cheering from the bleechers, calling it an amazing product blitz. Well, that's exactly what Toyota has done. The only reason nobody makes a big deal about it is because that is what Toyota does all the time--and it's why Toyota is wiping the floor with Ford (and GM and DC, for that matter).

 

You make a good point about where the $$$ get invested. This has always baffled me about Ford. Instead of that invisible "refresh" of the Focus, why didn't the company invest a bit more in a complete sheet-metal overhaul? Why invest all that money on an Explorer update and then make it look like the only thing that changed was the grill? Why not spin a whole range of RWD cars off the Mustang platform (an idea that is still just talk for now)? Next year's Escape update looks like one more lost opportunity, making me wonder where that long-elusive "corner" is.

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again, the media is making everyone clueless... toyota barely outsold ford for 1 month... but the total ytd sales ford is about 500,000 units ahead, the ford nameplate itself ytd is the best selling nameplate in states..

 

sure ford is losing money and they want it to stop, but the media and some moonbats are making it like they are going bankrupt tomorrow, give them sometime sheesh, once the taurus is gone, the fusion will jump in top 10 if not top 5 sellers, the car is awesome, just needs a 3.5 and manual or something. The edge will be a hit, but i kinda am confused, what happens to the freestyle? lol.. same type of vehicle right?

 

anyways, i have a 99 contour that has outlasted same year and later yeared malibus, accords, camrys.. you name it, this silly ford hasnt broken down yet, 118k.. so i will be buying a new car soon, and your damn sure it will be another ford.

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Again, the problem here is more than one of perception. Imagine if, over the past 18 months, Ford had introduced not only the 500 and Fusion but also a new series of B-class cars, a completely redesigned Escape, a production version of the Bronco concept, an entry-level RWD Lincoln, a redesigned Ranger, and a complete line of hybrid cars and SUVs. We'd be cheering from the bleechers, calling it an amazing product blitz. Well, that's exactly what Toyota has done. The only reason nobody makes a big deal about it is because that is what Toyota does all the time--and it's why Toyota is wiping the floor with Ford (and GM and DC, for that matter).

 

You make a good point about where the $$$ get invested. This has always baffled me about Ford. Instead of that invisible "refresh" of the Focus, why didn't the company invest a bit more in a complete sheet-metal overhaul? Why invest all that money on an Explorer update and then make it look like the only thing that changed was the grill? Why not spin a whole range of RWD cars off the Mustang platform (an idea that is still just talk for now)? Next year's Escape update looks like one more lost opportunity, making me wonder where that long-elusive "corner" is.

In reality Ford still has a long way to go, hopefully the next couple years of the lazy redesigns are it for Ford and when they decide to redesign a product they do it fully, not leaving sheetmetal virtually untouched and after waiting 7 years to even decide to invest money into redesignig it. 5 and 3, that should be what ford does with the cars and SUV's, every 3 years do a refresh. In that refresh change what was not liked by publications about the cars design, and maybe change some interior design cues and that is it, not costing too mcu and assuring your vehicle stays fresh till the full redesign which would be on the lots after 5 years, not decades like your company does now. I am not going to be blind to Fords laziness and i will tell it like it is. If Fords wants to turn around it is in product, quality and design. Plain and simple, nothing to hard to get, take care of the UAW would help too but what it all depends on is product, quality and design. People who constantly only see the best in Ford are simply blind. Ford doing what they have been doing is causing them the sales slide they so deeply deserve and had coming to them. It is almost as if they opened up their hands and said "here toyota please oh please take our sales, our customers and our country" They put out crap and now americans are simply saying screw you Ford. Toyota put out what people want, at the perfect time and now they are almost unstoppable, and it is very sad. I want Ford to succeed but praising them for stuff that is absolute failures will not turn them around. Right products, great design and great quality will bring customers in, not just a combination of the three, you need all three. The Ford 500 is a good product and good quality but pure crap for design and it is dud, I never thought a car could come out soo boring that it makes a Camry or Avalon look edgy. It will change with the refresh though, the design should have never even drew it with a pencil in the first place, nevermind actually proposing the design, greenlighting it, and producing it to miserable reviews that literally laugh out loud on how Ford just doesn't get it. Did you guys even arrange focus groups on the design? Same with the freestyle. Ford has to pull people away from Toyota, Honda and Nissan. They won't do it by copying them, they have to be better, And right now they don't have much that is. Lazy sheetmetal changes on redesigns only show that ford just doesn't get it. You can say well toyota does the same thing. Too damn bad if they do, they have the perception while Fords perception is known for being complete crap and doing what they are doing only furthers the perception. I don't want an suv that has the same sides, and rear as the one a decade ago. I almost can't believe it when the engineers doing the redesign said "exterior styling wasn't a priority" Well that is good, because you can now bet your pension that people in the market for that size suv won't make it a priority to go look at the ford dealership also. What a fricking joke, i bet they really wanted to say ford was too damn cheap and stupid with this redesign, they wouldn't invest in making the product look modern. Now Mark Fields must swallow his prideas the lazy SUV redesigns launch, too bad they were already frozen in place when he came in.

 

So again in order for them to succeed they need the right product at the right time(something they are failing miserably at, where are the b-segment cars? 2008 - 2010? Way to far off, prepare to have honda ahead of you by then) Great quality(they are improving but the fusion still has the cheap plastic as well as all their other vehicles), and great design(the fusion, edge and mustang are all they have right now, everything else is a styling flop)

 

Until the can accomplish those things they will only continue to diminish in the market place. I hope and wish for the best for ford, but in order to succeed they must first admit what they are doing wrong and using excuses "toyota does it too" will only put them out of business. Reach to be the best, not just merely competitive, something ford as never ever done other than the f-150. I, think i get it. Why don't they business executives get it? Prepare for your future by investing in products not by saving a penny now only to be heading for Bankruptcy court in 5 years.

Edited by DCK
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Again, the problem here is more than one of perception. Imagine if, over the past 18 months, Ford had introduced not only the 500 and Fusion but also a new series of B-class cars, a completely redesigned Escape, a production version of the Bronco concept, an entry-level RWD Lincoln, a redesigned Ranger, and a complete line of hybrid cars and SUVs. We'd be cheering from the bleechers, calling it an amazing product blitz. Well, that's exactly what Toyota has done. The only reason nobody makes a big deal about it is because that is what Toyota does all the time--and it's why Toyota is wiping the floor with Ford (and GM and DC, for that matter).

 

You make a good point about where the $$$ get invested. This has always baffled me about Ford. Instead of that invisible "refresh" of the Focus, why didn't the company invest a bit more in a complete sheet-metal overhaul? Why invest all that money on an Explorer update and then make it look like the only thing that changed was the grill? Why not spin a whole range of RWD cars off the Mustang platform (an idea that is still just talk for now)? Next year's Escape update looks like one more lost opportunity, making me wonder where that long-elusive "corner" is.

 

I agree 100% with everything you have said. Ford will forever be in restructuring/plant closing/belt tightening mode if it doesn't pick up the pace with product changes that the buying public can actually see.

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