Toyota clips Ford as #2

[Michael Reynolds]

The Camry at least looks all new. Every thing the customer sees is new. The Fords clearly do not look all new. Maybe if Ford adopted Toyota's formula for redesigning its products it would be more successful

 

The same thing can be said about the Explorer and Explorer Sport Trac. When you get in both vehicles you notice a big difference from their outgoing bretheren. The outside could have been designed to stand out more, but the Explorer was never designed with polarizing styling in the first place.

 

If gas had stayed around $2 bucks a gallon, I'd venture to say some of us here would not be so hard on the Explorer's refresh. Besides, even with the dramatic decreases in sales numbers, the Explorer is still selling better than the competition. Placing the entire blame of the Explorer's decreases year-over-year on styling just doesn't hold much water.

 

As far as the Focus and Escape/Mariner are concerned, I think it MAKES a lot of sense to see what all 3 of those nameplates have to offer before passing judgement. Unless you have some sort of insider info that no one else around here knows about, why bother arguing about something that we've seen 10% of?

 

As far as the SuperDuty is concerned, well it's primarly used as a work truck. Give it a little bit of an update from a style perspective, dump the cheesey plastic interior, and give it improved more reliable powertrains and there you go. There's no need to change the cab, or bed for that matter, as I highly doubt that was a major source of complaint in the first place.

[bystander]

But also keep in mind that all those products are in shrinking markets and no matter what ford would have done to them, it wouldnt stem the loss in sales from them becoming unpopluar or shielding them from the price increases in gas. The Super Duty is execpted from that, since who buys most SD? Contractors who could give less then a fuck bout how they look to a point, they are more concerned about how good it runs and how well it performs.

 

I think Ford was smarter to spend money on what they did vs more bold styling changes since they laided down a great framework to allow the vechicles to age on since they are in a shrinking market and get away with just spending money on styling changes down the road.

 

 

Re-read my post. I was calling bullshit on the claim that said products are all-new. Regardless of whether or not they are in shrinking markets, they are not all new as was claimed.

[NickF1011]

Richard, you're simply wrong here. Maybe if you realized it, you wouldn't be so happy about the direction management is taking the company. The 'new' SuperDuty is not all new as you state. Same cab, same box, new front end, interior, diesel, and tailgate treatment. Sound like a familiar formula? The 2006 Explorer followed the same gameplan and it didn't work. Same with the 'new' Expedition and 'new' Navigator--new nose, interior, chassis, same greenhouse, doors, and general proportions. Clearly not all new as you claim. Neither is the 2008 Escape (new nose, interior, door skins, completely carryover greenhouse). And Edmunds says the 2008 Focus will only get a new nose, interior, and minor mechanical upgrades.

 

The Explorer would be way down REGARDLESS of how extensive the redesign was. Blaming its drop in market share solely in the lack of new sheet metal is an argument that can't be supported.

 

As for the Focus...one close look at the sedan spy pics will tell you it has all-new sheet metal from the greenhouse down, a'la Toyota Camry.

 

How many ALL NEW products has Honda released lately? The Ridgeline and Fit?

 

How about Toyota? Scion tC and FJ Cruiser? I don't even really consider the Yaris "all-new" as its realistically just a next-generation Echo that's actually doing well.

 

Modernizing the current product is far more important than introducing all-new models to the lineup in my opinion. Would seem Honda and Toyota agree.

[bystander]

The same thing can be said about the Explorer and Explorer Sport Trac. When you get in both vehicles you notice a big difference from their outgoing bretheren. The outside could have been designed to stand out more, but the Explorer was never designed with polarizing styling in the first place.

 

If gas had stayed around $2 bucks a gallon, I'd venture to say some of us here would not be so hard on the Explorer's refresh. Besides, even with the dramatic decreases in sales numbers, the Explorer is still selling better than the competition. Placing the entire blame of the Explorer's decreases year-over-year on styling just doesn't hold much water.

 

As far as the Focus and Escape/Mariner are concerned, I think it MAKES a lot of sense to see what all 3 of those nameplates have to offer before passing judgement. Unless you have some sort of insider info that no one else around here knows about, why bother arguing about something that we've seen 10% of?

 

As far as the SuperDuty is concerned, well it's primarly used as a work truck. Give it a little bit of an update from a style perspective, dump the cheesey plastic interior, and give it improved more reliable powertrains and there you go. There's no need to change the cab, or bed for that matter, as I highly doubt that was a major source of complaint in the first place.

 

 

There it is. We've got an excuse for every half-ass redesign and why it will be 'adequate'. Meanwhile, competition moves forward with new stuff that makes the Fords look dated and customers bolt. The 2006 Explorer is not the same as the 2007 Camry. The '07 Camry has all new sheetmetal. the Explorer has 80% carryover sheetmetal. Nobody gets excited about 'new' cars that don't look NEW.

[NickF1011]

There it is. We've got an excuse for every half-ass redesign and why it will be 'adequate'. Meanwhile, competition moves forward with new stuff that makes the Fords look dated and customers bolt. The 2006 Explorer is not the same as the 2007 Camry. The '07 Camry has all new sheetmetal. the Explorer has 80% carryover sheetmetal. Nobody gets excited about 'new' cars that don't look NEW.

 

What about the 80% carryover sheet metal on the Accord? Nobody mentions that one for sake of comparison.

[bystander]

The Explorer would be way down REGARDLESS of how extensive the redesign was. Blaming its drop in market share solely in the lack of new sheet metal is an argument that can't be supported.

 

As for the Focus...one close look at the sedan spy pics will tell you it has all-new sheet metal from the greenhouse down, a'la Toyota Camry.

 

How many ALL NEW products has Honda released lately? The Ridgeline and Fit?

 

How about Toyota? Scion tC and FJ Cruiser? I don't even really consider the Yaris "all-new" as its realistically just a next-generation Echo that's actually doing well.

 

Modernizing the current product is far more important than introducing all-new models to the lineup in my opinion. Would seem Honda and Toyota agree.

 

The '07 Camry shares no sheetmetal or glass with the '06 model. It looks like a new car. Like I've said before: keep defending the status quo, it's worked so well...

 

What about the 80% carryover sheet metal on the Accord? Nobody mentions that one for sake of comparison.

 

I don't defend the latest Accord redesign just because it's a Honda. Honda is making the same stupid mistake Ford has been making with the Accord 'freshening'. Only difference is, people will probably not leave the Accord in droves because they have an excellent quality reputation. Ford, on the other hand hasn't rebuilt its quality reputation in the minds of customers, therefore its vanilla freshenings offer very little to entice the customer.

Edited August 4, 2006 by bystander

[NickF1011]

The '07 Camry shares no sheetmetal or glass with the '06 model. It looks like a new car. Like I've said before: keep defending the status quo, it's worked so well...

 

Uhh....the '07 Camry greenhouse is IDENTICAL to the outgoing '06 model.

 

 

 

Please, point out the "new" parts of the 2007 greenhouse for us.

[Michael Reynolds]

There it is. We've got an excuse for every half-ass redesign and why it will be 'adequate'. Meanwhile, competition moves forward with new stuff that makes the Fords look dated and customers bolt. The 2006 Explorer is not the same as the 2007 Camry. The '07 Camry has all new sheetmetal. the Explorer has 80% carryover sheetmetal. Nobody gets excited about 'new' cars that don't look NEW.

 

Excuses?

 

Sitting here comparing an Explorer and the Camry is supposed to make what you say that much more credible? Those are two different vehicles, in very different segments.

 

And again let's ignore the fact that gas is well averaging pretty much a dollar more than it did last year at this time. Making it one of THE biggest deciding factors as to what some consumers buy, if that were not the case you would not see explosive gains in the compact/small car segment. Come on lets not sit here and act like the design is the MAIN premise behind why the Explorer (and every other BOF SUV) are way down for the year.

 

Oh and Nick I pointed that out the other day, but someone was quick to say that it was only around for 1 more model year so that made it acceptable.

 

BTW, the 07 Camry shares almost the same greenhouse with the outgoing model.

 

 

 

Uhh....the '07 Camry greenhouse is IDENTICAL to the outgoing '06 model.

 

 

 

Please, point out the "new" parts of the 2007 greenhouse for us.

 

And now that you posted that. The door panels look the same as well. Everyone pitching a fit about the Focus, heed those pictures of the Camry above.

 

Amazing what a new bodyline crease and removal of a rubstrip does eh?

[NickF1011]

Oh and Nick I pointed that out the other day, but someone was quick to say that it was only around for 1 more model year so that made it acceptable.

 

And Explorer is supposedly getting a ground-up redo for the '09 model year. So it's sticking around one year longer than the not-so-refreshed Accord. Big deal. :shrug:

[silvrsvt]

The '07 Camry shares no sheetmetal or glass with the '06 model. It looks like a new car.

 

07

 

05

 

Greenhouse looks the same to me, the C-pillar looks every so slightly different towards the rear.

 

Other wise, just new front end clip and rear end with new door skins.

[Michael Reynolds]

And Explorer is supposedly getting a ground-up redo for the '09 model year. So it's sticking around one year longer than the not-so-refreshed Accord. Big deal. :shrug:

 

[sarcasim]Too little, too late. It needs to happen now Honduh is able to get away with it because it's Honduh.[/sarcasim]

 

Oh and lets face it, that wasn't even a half ass refresh it was more like a 1/4789th ass refresh of the Accord. Wow, new tailights and a revised grille........

 

Ditto the Pilot.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Michael Reynolds

[hofffam]

I don't know where all of you guys live, but in Austin TX there are nearly zero Freestyles. I know it is a good car but it is ridiculously boring looking.

 

I truly do not understand what has been going on with Ford styling. They seem to be paralyzed. Good to very good vehicles like the 500, Freestyle, and Explorer have almost no visual appeal at all. A chrome grill does not make a car interesting. I think the Expedition looks like a fat block of metal with plastic cladding. The Navigator is even worse. I like the new Expedition front, but all the remaining lines are straight to the back. I do not think the new Expedition will do well since fuel economy won't be meaningfully better.

 

I've driven recent Focus (rental) and 500 (used car test drive for teenage driver). They are excellent cars. But oh my no one who considers themselves even slightly cool or hip would buy one. The 500 hasn't earned a reputation yet so getting people to drive them takes something special. Honda DOES get by on reputation - I think the Accord, especially the pre-06 model was ugly. I'm sort of shocked how good the new Camry looks, considering I hated the old one. Guess what - the new Camry is everywhere in Austin.

 

The Escape is another good vehicle. I drove both Ford and Mazda as I was shopping for a teenager's car. The 4 is too little, but the V6 is nice. There are lots of them on the road here, but Ford can't let it languish for long.

 

When the stylists have something to inspire them, like the Mustang, T-bird, or GT40, then do very well.

 

How about this to make Lincoln stand out: focus far more on performance than meaningless luxury (motorized running boards). Rework the Aviator - take 200 lbs out of the Explorer; carbon fiber seats; 1 inch lower, truly different sheet metal; sport wheels (not pimped out wheels). Take the same approach to the Zephyr, Navigator.

 

I still say one piece of surgery should be Mercury. It is just a Ford with more standard equipment and a different grill. NO ONE CARES. I just don't believe this will send buyers to Toyota or GM. Every Mercury save Cougar (gone of course) is available as a Ford or Lincoln. The Grand Marquis buyer, who supposedly replaces his car rarely, should not defect.

[DCK]

No I've yet to see a Civic? I don't leave my house, and when I do I wear a blindfold.

 

Why would you even ask a silly question like that? Obviously I don't feel that the Civic is anything to write home about, otherwise I wouldn't have said what I did. Dual tier dashboards, complete with digital speedos, a dashboard that you could serve a 5 course meal on, and an exterior design that looks like something out of Flight of the Navigator, really don't excite me. Then again that's my opinion, just like the one you expressed.

The inteior is a love it or hate it, but Honda took a bold initiative that is paying off and selling civics at much higher transaction prices of the focus and selling a lot more civics. The exterior styling is simply stunning, yeah you probably would like it because it is missing a blue oval, that dictates your tastes.

 

Regardless as to whether or not the Pilot and Accord will be replaced a year from now, two weeks from now, or a day from now. The reskin of both vehicles retains almost every design element from the orginal boring ass designs that debuted 4 years ago.

You made a statement that honda reskins are like Fords. THE DIFFERENCE IS HONDA'S REFRESHES ARE MID-LIFE UPGRADES AND THEN THE VEHICLE IS REPLACED 2 YEARS AFTER, MAKING IT 5 YEAR CYCLES. FORD DOES A GOD DAMN RESKIN AFTER 5 YEARS PR HELL 20 YEARS IN THE CASE OF THE RANGER AND COMPLETE REDESIGNS ARE NEVER IN THE FUTURE. Are you really going to suggest Honda treats their products like ford? Ford launches and abandons aand even mark fields relized it but somehow you don't. Please.........

 

When did I ever say that the 500 had more than ample power? I simply indicated that the power was ample for what most consumers utilize those vehicles for. Of course those cars could utilize a bigger engine and more distinctive styling, but as we've noticed with the Avalon (and some extent the 300) those two things do not gurantee tons of volume.

 

Avalon sales before the new one were abysmal, now with a great car is sells about 6-8k a month and has to compete with the ES. I bet the 500 adds more sales if the new front and rear look good and with the new engine. If they were here from the beginning the sales would be much more than they are now, possibly beaiting the conveted Lucerne.

 

The Camry at least looks all new. Every thing the customer sees is new. The Fords clearly do not look all new. Maybe if Ford adopted Toyota's formula for redesigning its products it would be more successful.

 

Ford should realize by now that these half-ass freshenings don't cut the mustard. I've quoted it before, but according to Einstein the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I agree 100% with you. But most people here will defend ford's actions all the way to bankruptcy. To them Ford does everything 100% right, even though their sales strongly suggest otherwise.

Edited August 4, 2006 by DCK

[swenson88]

The inteior is a love it or hate it, but Honda took a bold initiative that is paying off and selling civics at much higher transaction prices of the focus and selling a lot more civics. The exterior styling is simply stunning, yeah you probably would like it because it is missing a blue oval, that dictates your tastes.

 

 

Come on, "stunning"???? Are you serious? I think the coupe is attractive, but that space-age over-aerodynamically styled sedan is unattractive, especially in side profile. And the Civic would sell regardless of looks or style, there's so many Civic lemmings out there it doesn't even matter. They sell on reputation and mythology.

[DCK]

[sarcasim]Too little, too late. It needs to happen now Honduh is able to get away with it because it's Honduh.[/sarcasim]

 

Oh and lets face it, that wasn't even a half ass refresh it was more like a 1/4789th ass refresh of the Accord. Wow, new tailights and a revised grille........

 

Ditto the Pilot.

The pilot and accord are becoming all new 5 years after they launched and had a refresh after 3. Ford's product cycles are 8-10 years with a refresh after 5. What don't you understand? Ford needs to chagne and you simply defend their decade long product cycles.

 

Answer me this

 

Pilot - Refreshed after 3 years - all new after 5 years

 

Explorer - Big refresh after 5 years - may be all new after 8 or ten years

 

And your going to bash honda?

 

Where the hell was the Explorer's 3rd year refresh??? Oh wait it didn't exist!!!! Where the hell was ford's all new explorer after 5 years years???? Oh wait it didn't exist!!!! Ford did a major refresh after Honda already does a refresh and then a major redesign.

I want ford to succeed but doing what they have been doing is leading them into bankruptcy.

Edited August 4, 2006 by DCK

[bystander]

Uhh....the '07 Camry greenhouse is IDENTICAL to the outgoing '06 model.

 

 

 

Please, point out the "new" parts of the 2007 greenhouse for us.

 

You can see from the photo that the 2007 roofline is lower, the B-pillar is noticeably shorter. It looks like they took some upward arc out of the roofline. In terms of actual numbers, the 2007 Camry has a 2.2 inch longer wheelbase, has a track width 1 inch wider, and most significantly is over an inch lower in overall height. Therefore, the 2007 greenhouse is new (similar, but new nonetheless). If you think otherwise, please enlighten us how the overall height can be reduced 1" and B-pillar shortened with an identical greenhouse. The stance and proportions of the new car also look completely different (the 2006 having more of a nose-down rake appearance and a much longer rear decklid and overhang. Changes to the wheelbase, track width, and overall height are not indicative of a strictly cosmetic freshening.

 

Compare those Camry photos to profile shots of the 2005 and '06 Explorer or the 2006 and '07 Expedition and you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between the old and new Fords because they look absolutely carryover aft of the firewall.

Edited August 4, 2006 by bystander

[NickF1011]

In terms of actual numbers, the 2007 Camry has a 2.2 inch longer wheelbase, has a track width 1 inch wider, and most significantly is over an inch lower in overall height. Therefore, the 2007 greenhouse is new (similar, but new nonetheless).

 

Therefore? That's quite a leap in reasoning. You just described the '99 Mustang redesign from 1998. Wider, longer, and shortened height, yet the greenhouse was identical save for the c-pillar sheet metal.

 

Any info about the "shortened b-pillar"? Would love to see numbers on that. Optical illusions are wonderful and car designers use them to their advantage.

[bystander]

Therefore? That's quite a leap in reasoning. You just described the '99 Mustang redesign from 1998. Wider, longer, and shortened height, yet the greenhouse was identical save for the c-pillar sheet metal.

 

Any info about the "shortened b-pillar"? Would love to see numbers on that. Optical illusions are wonderful and car designers use them to their advantage.

 

OK, smart ass. I just measured the B-pillar height on a 2002-6 and 07 Camry and the B-pillar on the new car is a little over 1 inch shorter. The rear door is approximately 2 1/2 inches longer at the belt line and the front door length at the belt line is unchanged.

 

What was that you were saying about the greenhouses being identical?

 

If you don't believe me, go do the measurements yourself.

[RichardJensen]

OK, smart ass. I just measured the B-pillar height on a 2002-6 and 07 Camry and the B-pillar on the new car is a little over 1 inch shorter. The rear door is approximately 2 1/2 inches longer at the belt line and the front door length at the belt line is unchanged.

 

What was that you were saying about the greenhouses being identical?

 

If you don't believe me, go do the measurements yourself.

Gee. Tell me again why Ford should've changed more sheetmetal on the Explorer?

 

Toyota dropped the greenhouse on the Camry (and removed a fair amount of rear seat room--the trunk's also smaller, but that's another story), and went to all that effort, and to a car buff like NickF, it looks exactly the same.

 

At least on the Explorer the reason why it looks exactly the same is because it IS exactly the same. What's Toyota's excuse?

 

Who wasted money? Toyota or Ford?

Edited August 4, 2006 by RichardJensen

[2005Explorer]

The pilot and accord are becoming all new 5 years after they launched and had a refresh after 3. Ford's product cycles are 8-10 years with a refresh after 5. What don't you understand? Ford needs to chagne and you simply defend their decade long product cycles.

 

Answer me this

 

Pilot - Refreshed after 3 years - all new after 5 years

 

Explorer - Big refresh after 5 years - may be all new after 8 or ten years

 

And your going to bash honda?

 

Where the hell was the Explorer's 3rd year refresh??? Oh wait it didn't exist!!!! Where the hell was ford's all new explorer after 5 years years???? Oh wait it didn't exist!!!! Ford did a major refresh after Honda already does a refresh and then a major redesign.

I want ford to succeed but doing what they have been doing is leading them into bankruptcy.

 

I agree...maybe a little more should have been done on the doors and fenders but why do you think Ford needs a new Explorer from the ground up? If there is a more advanced BOF midsize SUV chassis...I want to see it...honestly. You make it sound like the current Explorer is riding around on a 1991 Explorer chassis. Some sheetmetal tweaking is all that is needed at this point and probably for a few years to come.

[DCK]

I agree...maybe a little more should have been done on the doors and fenders but why do you think Ford needs a new Explorer from the ground up? If there is a more advanced BOF midsize SUV chassis...I want to see it...honestly. You make it sound like the current Explorer is riding around on a 1991 Explorer chassis. Some sheetmetal tweaking is all that is needed at this point and probably for a few years to come.

Style is a huge player in vehicle sales. Leaving the exterior virtually unchanged for 10 years is only going to kill a product, just look at ford list of dead vehicles. The explorer would benefit greatly from new sheetmetal. Right now it looks dated and while the new tahoe looks modern the expedition looks dated before it came out. Same with the 2005 focus. the upcoming escape, what they did with the 2000 taurus, the rager, the crown victoria.........so on and so on. They literally kill products. They need to keep the fusion, 500, edge, new every 5 years. They need to start doing it with the rest of their line-up.

[630land]

"Where the hell was the Explorer's 3rd year refresh??? Oh wait it didn't exist!!!! Where the hell was ford's all new explorer after 5 years years???? "

 

Pilot is a car based SUV, not a truck. A true comparison for the Explorer is the 4-Runner or the Pathfinder/Xterra. How 'all new looking' are they??? Trucks cost a ton more to 'restyle' often. The 'all new' 07 Camry now is way cheaper to do than an 'all new truck'.

 

A lot of "car people" whine and still have the 1950's mentality of "I want to see new fins every year". And these people are not even paying customers!

 

Oh, and with Toyota going 6 years on the current Corolla, the "I wanna see new fins" types better brace themselves, the others will follow. So the "3/5" change schedule is not to be expected anymore.

 

 

BTW: They are selling well from PERCEPTIONS of economy and reliability, not "NEW looking" cars!

Edited August 4, 2006 by 630land

[silvrsvt]

Style is a huge player in vehicle sales. Leaving the exterior virtually unchanged for 10 years is only going to kill a product, just look at ford list of dead vehicles. The explorer would benefit greatly from new sheetmetal. Right now it looks dated and while the new tahoe looks modern the expedition looks dated before it came out. Same with the 2005 focus. the upcoming escape, what they did with the 2000 taurus, the rager, the crown victoria.........so on and so on. They literally kill products. They need to keep the fusion, 500, edge, new every 5 years. They need to start doing it with the rest of their line-up.

 

 

Uh I guess you dont know that the 500 (and the rest of the D3 cars) is coming up for a new refresh come next year...3 years after it was launched as a 2005 model :rolleyes:

 

The Fusion is getting AWD a year after its release, something that both Camry and Accord dont offer at all. New styling prob some time in 2010 or so.

 

I think Ford finally learned its lesson when it comes to keeping cars updated.

 

As for the Tahoe, I think its about exciting as boiling water, all it does is smoothout the lines from the previous generation Tahoe and doesnt do anything exciting for me. The Expedition already has a more advanced platform with IRS and a better looking interior. The Explorer was given an extensitve make over in 2002 and refreshing in 2006...so where is your 10 year thing coming into play with that?

[630land]

Also, trucks traditinally had sold fine for years with no major restyles, such as the old F-150's Now with car buyers in the truck market, they want 'pretty new fins' to look at each year.

 

So, how often have the 'true' trucks at Toyota and Nissan been restyled? [Honda's 'trucks' are car based.]

 

Explorers have the 'gas hog' image, so that is why buyers are passing on them. Not because it has older windows. In fact the real Toyota/nissan trucks are down in sales. Aren't Nissan's kinda "new looking"? If they are why are they not selling??

Edited August 4, 2006 by 630land

[bystander]

Gee. Tell me again why Ford should've changed more sheetmetal on the Explorer?

 

Toyota dropped the greenhouse on the Camry (and removed a fair amount of rear seat room--the trunk's also smaller, but that's another story), and went to all that effort, and to a car buff like NickF, it looks exactly the same.

 

At least on the Explorer the reason why it looks exactly the same is because it IS exactly the same. What's Toyota's excuse?

 

Who wasted money? Toyota or Ford?

 

Richard, if you're trying to make the case that Toyota doesn't know how to update their products and Ford does, I'd say it's time to take your medication. Sales trends prove otherwise.