Toyota clips Ford as #2

[Blue Oval Staff]

click here for the article

[DCK]

What a giant disgrace, Americans really don't care and that is unfortunate.

 

But who can you blame? It is Fords very own fault, this is a result of poor gas mileage compared to the competition, very bad marketing - You can hate the camry all you want but the camry commercial are magnificantly done with the "when a car becomes more" and "What if the best selling car in america becomes the best car for america" They were very well done looked expensive to make and really catched the veiwer. The fusion commericals were complete crap, yeah they had a catchy tune but the launch commercials told you 0 things about the vehicle, it gave you no reason to even go look at one and ford can't screw up advertising on a very implrtant vehicle. Then when the dealers and focus group gave their opinion they did a very very very crappy and cheap commercial which explained a couple things about the car. They need to stop advertising great deals on vehicles because no one is oging to want one anyways, they need to change their image by advertising there vehicles and the advantage of their vehicles not the 3500 cash rebates.

 

Then until Mark Fields came in, Ford was total crackhead when it came to product portfolio, how the hell was the company run with absolutely no clear direction, everything was a maybe and a should of. Now we have a clearer focus but all the much needed vehicles are coming out in 2009 and 2010, WTF is ford going to do? The reskinned focus needs to be here now, not in a year and a half. Ford should get products out ASAP instead for some idiotic reason they love to launch all their vehicles in november, why????? Ford could have easily launched the edge now, right now, or even could have easily launched it last month in july, but for some reason they only have november launches? WHY?

 

Even now we here reports of their B segments cars launching in 2010, hell even if 2008 is still true that is too late. The All new focus coming in 2011or 2012 only will set ford decline in stone. Hopefully the 2008 reskin looks drop dead gorgeous.

 

Mercury - Either do something with it or kill it, seriously a fricking trim level is asinine. Give it unique products, they really only have to focus on Ford, Mercury and Lincoln as their other divisions are almost self run. GM mainly runs 8 divisions and don't neglect divisions as much as ford only really running 3. Mercury needs unique products, but that will probably never ever happen again because that would be a good move and ford isn't known for good moves.

 

Lincoln - Seem thing, they are becoming a trim level, the mkz and soon to be mkx and mks are essentially what ford offers? WTF is wrong with ford, making mercury a trim level simply cut their sales by 60% in 5 years so why do they think it will work for Lincoln, Ford is just soo lazy with products.

 

Also the whole "exterior styling wasn't a priority" Talk about a bunch of BS, it means we are being cheap.

[Michael Reynolds]

Disgrace? After reading that article I doubt a monthly sales title matters to either manufacturer (Toyota didn't even realize it until the press pointed it out).

 

Again Ford needs to worry about being in the black, not who's 2nd, 3rd, or dead last.

 

What's up with the 'sky is falling' mentallity around here?

Edited August 2, 2006 by Michael Reynolds

[ZanatWork]

Disgrace? After reading that article I doubt a monthly sales title matters to either manufacturer (Toyota didn't even realize it until the press pointed it out).

 

Again Ford needs to worry about being in the black, not who's 2nd, 3rd, or dead last.

 

What's up with the 'sky is falling' mentallity around here?

 

 

Negative nancies are real quick to feed on bad news.

 

I agree that Ford's loss of the no. 2 spot is no big deal...GM put out rolling crap for years while being #1, and Toyota's run is costing them in the recall department.

 

All that matters is whether you're making money or not, whether the customers are happy or not, and whether there's a plan to improve things or not.

[MattInFLL]

It absolutely matters that Ford has lost #2.. it affects morale, it affects image, it affects a lot... it leads to apathy.. and that all affects the employees in a big way.

 

Ford is making me so mad. Why doesn't the 500/Montego have a bigger engine already? Leaving the large RWD market to Chrysler is idiotic - the Town Car/Crown Vic could have generated money for years, but they neglected them too long. Explorer/Expedition sales have been dropping for a while now - it's like they just freakin realized it. The Focus should be on the Mazda 3 platform already. If Jag had revamped the S even once, and the X was a true G35/IS competitor, the plan would have worked. But as usual Ford comes up with a great idea, and doesn't follow through...or waits for some halo vehicle like the original Explorer to save the company. Well the Edge aint it. It's ugly. Look at the Mazda CX-7/9 - handsome vehicles that can compete on style and technology.. right there in Ford's own stable.. and what do we get? A slab slided box.

 

INstead of spending billions on an aluminum platform everyone just basically yawns at (XJ), they could have developed a versatile large RWD platform that could have worked in a Jag and a Lincoln or even a Mercury. Nissan/Infiniti and Mercedes/Chrysler have proven you can make a platform work in a premium and a more standard vehicle. But nope, the XJ ( a very fine car) sits on dealer lots with bland style, and the Town car is being killed off... while large luxury cars fly off other brand's lots and Cadillac proves there is room for a large American luxury car.

 

So now sell Jag? After all that money? When someone else can come in, tweak it and make it work? Stupid. Why not kill Mercury and expand Lincoln?

 

Just dumb, dumb, dumb!!!

 

So yeah, falling to #3 makes a BIG difference - because it's just one more example of how Ford is in deep sh*t. And that is sad.

 

This isnn't sky is falling. The sky has been falling for a long time, and Mark Fields is the latest "we're gonna turn this around" person... yeah, OK, let's hope he does. But Bill was supposed to do that too. Their heads are still not out of the sand.

Edited August 3, 2006 by MattInFLL

[DCK]

It is a big deal, plain and simple, this is their home market.

 

Anyways why only focus on the very first part of my post and not the rest which states why ford is falling.

[Bluecon]

You have to have positive morale to have it affected by this news.

That is Fords biggest problem.

They have destroyed morale in their plants and they have no idea how to fix it or the people thet know how.

[Edgey]

Who cares about marketshare when you're bleeding to death? I am not worried about Toyota overtaking Ford for one month, although it will likely become an annual event instead of a montly one. The quicker Ford reduces itself to a healthier size, the quicker they will be in a position to benefit from growth instead of struggling to hold onto marketshare it didn't earn properly. Decline isn't a bad thing in Ford's case, it's a painful part of restructuring and only the analysts and media look at it as black & white. You just have to convince people that you have important product to move the company ahead and I fear Ford has not done a good job establishing it has a strong product future. Actually, I'm beginning to doubt Ford is able to respond quickly enough to changes in the market. They seem to be reletively slow to launch new or updated products, and somewhat unambitious with their revitalization attemps *witness Escape, Explorer, Focus, etc...*.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Edgey

[Michael Reynolds]

And Ford being No. 3 (for a month) can be attributed to low employee morale? Have we conducted a survey?

 

When the company you depend upon for a living is swiming in red ink and shedding employees left and right, how the hell do u think employees are going to react. I dunno about anyone else but I could give a damn about who's no. 1 or 2, as long as I know I'll have a job to go to indefintely.

 

I think being No. 2 matters alot for naysayers, because it doesn't mean jack for Ford's bottom line. If that were the case Toyota and Honda would not be more profitable than companies such as GM and Ford (even b4 they surpassed Ford for ONE whole month).

 

Excuse me while I panic................

 

Who cares about marketshare when you're bleeding to death? I am not worried about Toyota overtaking Ford for one month, although it will likely become an annual event instead of a montly one. The quicker Ford reduces itself to a healthier size, the quicker they will be in a position to benefit from growth instead of struggling to hold onto marketshare it didn't earn properly. Decline isn't a bad thing in Ford's case, it's a painful part of restructuring and only the analysts and media look at it as black & white. You just have to convince people that you have important product to move the company ahead and I fear Ford has not done a good job establishing it has a strong product future. Actually, I'm beginning to doubt Ford is able to respond quickly enough to changes in the market. They seem to be reletively slow to launch new or updated products, and somewhat unambitious with their revitalization attemps *witness Escape, Explorer, Focus, etc...*.

 

I'm glad someone is awake.

[MattInFLL]

If they wanted to stop bleeding red ink, maybe they should have done more with their product. It's a product driven market, and the fact they are no longer number 2 is a sign of the fact that they are not good at delivering product.

 

Ford is a full-line car and truck company, not a boutique. That is its heritage, and to give that up gives up the soul of the company. They are abandoning large RWD cars, and they are late with crossovers that are not compelling. Escape and Focus have not kept up (and they could have). The 500 is a great car, but is not a compelling choice for consumers. The Ranger has been left to die. Do you see many Freestyles on the road? The Fusion is clearly a hit, but not a save the company hit. Same for Mustang. And what have we got coming? Oh yeah, the Edge. Oh and some freshened Expeditions no one wants. That's it.

 

So just when is the company going to stabilize when they are selling mainly stale product that is not in line with what the consumer is buying - and there is really not that much in the immediate pipeline?

 

Forget "bold" advertising, they need bold bet-the-company leadership... oh wait, didn't they just announce yet another revision to their "turnaround plan" ? Being on the retreat has not usually won battles.

 

My first word as a baby was "mustang" and I have always been fiercely loyal to Ford, but that doesn't mean I won't criticize them when they are screwing up so bad.

[voncoon]

Fords biggest concern was social engineering, not building vehicles that the public wanted to buy. They have succeeded in being politically correct, but as a viable auto company they are probably now soon going to be history.

[Michael Reynolds]

If they wanted to stop bleeding red ink, maybe they should have done more with their product. It's a product driven market, and the fact they are no longer number 2 is a sign of the fact that they are not good at delivering product.

 

Ford is a full-line car and truck company, not a boutique. That is its heritage, and to give that up gives up the soul of the company. They are abandoning large RWD cars, and they are late with crossovers that are not compelling. Escape and Focus have not kept up (and they could have). The 500 is a great car, but is not a compelling choice for consumers. The Ranger has been left to die. Do you see many Freestyles on the road? The Fusion is clearly a hit, but not a save the company hit. Same for Mustang. And what have we got coming? Oh yeah, the Edge. Oh and some freshened Expeditions no one wants. That's it.

 

Those are good points, and I agree for the most part (not that you care whether I do or don't). With that said I still reinforce the fact that a month's volume should not be looked at as the end all of Ford Motor. It pisses me off that media outlets such as the Free Press/News ramble on and on about one month of sales, when Yota would have to move quite a bit more units to surpass Ford's US automotive unit.

[RichardJensen]

If they wanted to stop bleeding red ink, maybe they should have done more with their product. It's a product driven market, and the fact they are no longer number 2 is a sign of the fact that they are not good at delivering product.

 

Ford is a full-line car and truck company, not a boutique. That is its heritage, and to give that up gives up the soul of the company. They are abandoning large RWD cars, and they are late with crossovers that are not compelling. Escape and Focus have not kept up (and they could have). The 500 is a great car, but is not a compelling choice for consumers. The Ranger has been left to die. Do you see many Freestyles on the road? The Fusion is clearly a hit, but not a save the company hit. Same for Mustang. And what have we got coming? Oh yeah, the Edge. Oh and some freshened Expeditions no one wants. That's it.

 

So just when is the company going to stabilize when they are selling mainly stale product that is not in line with what the consumer is buying - and there is really not that much in the immediate pipeline?

 

Forget "bold" advertising, they need bold bet-the-company leadership... oh wait, didn't they just announce yet another revision to their "turnaround plan" ? Being on the retreat has not usually won battles.

 

My first word as a baby was "mustang" and I have always been fiercely loyal to Ford, but that doesn't mean I won't criticize them when they are screwing up so bad.

1) Ford still sells more RWD cars than any other domestic. Their failure to come up with an RWD answer to the 300 is not an abandonment of a segment. Only for a small minority of the public, is "RWD" a segment. Most other people are sane, and shop by price, value, perceived quality, etc.

 

2) "Late with crossovers that are not compelling"? Based on what data? Your own lack of interest in the Edge? Ford has more crossovers on the market than any other car company. The Escape has held its own in a market that has gotten considerably more competitive since it was launched in 2000. Volume is down for the year only due to the disproportionate declines from last year's Employee pricing.

 

3) The Ranger is in a shrinking segment. In fact, $3.00 a gallon gas has not done much to boost sales of small pickups. The Explorer and Expedition are both players in shrinking segments as well, but unlike the Ranger, Ford stands to make decent profit from the Explorer and Expedition. Those products justify further investment. The Ranger, at this time, simply does not.

 

4) As a matter of fact, I DO see many Freestyles on the road. You might want to tally up (as of the end of June) all the D3 sales for the year. D3 sales at the end of June were even with June of '05. Chrysler 300 + Pacifica volume is down, Toyota Avalon + Highlander volume is down--FIVE HUNDRED + MONTEGO + FREESTYLE VOLUME IS FLAT. The D3 cars are taking market share from established competitors.

 

And let's look at the financial situation of Ford Motor Company: They have more cash on hand than GM, they have a better debt to equity ratio, they have a stronger credit operation that they do not have to sell, they have a much smaller dependence on North American operations than GM, they have reduced product lead time to 22 months, and they have implemented one of the most comprehensive and forward-looking global product development strategies in the business.

 

Finally, to this allegation of "no new product": From November of this year to November of next, Ford will be launching over a million units of all new product. That's a third of their product lineup. A new Super Duty (400k units), new Expedition (100k units), new Navigator (30k units), new Mazda6 (100k units), new Mazda CX9 (25k units), new Edge and MKX (150k units--conservatively), a new Escape, Tribute, and Mariner (250k units), the Land Rover LR2 (30k units), S80 (40k units), C70 (25k units), and a new Focus--as in all new sheetmetal, interior, substantial chassis upgrades, and a new transmission--y'know--like the 'all-new' Camry (200k units).

 

There's also the refreshed D3s (220k units), and possibly the MKS (30k units).

 

What amazes me is the people on this board who latch onto pet products (e.g. the Ranger, or the Crown Vic), and then carp about how Ford "never" refreshes their products, while the entire lineup around the cars in question change.

Edited August 3, 2006 by RichardJensen

[DCK]

1) Ford still sells more RWD cars than any other domestic. Their failure to come up with an RWD answer to the 300 is not an abandonment of a segment. Only for a small minority of the public, is "RWD" a segment. Most other people are sane, and shop by price, value, perceived quality, etc.

What about luxury? They will soon not have a luxury RWD car at Lincoln, it is almost as if they are planning to kill lincoln and mercury.

 

2) "Late with crossovers that are not compelling"? Based on what data? Your own lack of interest in the Edge? Ford has more crossovers on the market than any other car company. The Escape has held its own in a market that has gotten considerably more competitive since it was launched in 2000. Volume is down for the year only due to the disproportionate declines from last year's Employee pricing.

Let's see, they are letting the escape die on the lots, and the redesign is not going to address the aging exterior styling. The edge should be a hit, but in 2015 are we still going to have the same vehicle? The freestyle is a result of the dullest styling in automotive history and a lack luster engine.

 

3) The Ranger is in a shrinking segment. In fact, $3.00 a gallon gas has not done much to boost sales of small pickups. The Explorer and Expedition are both players in shrinking segments as well, but unlike the Ranger, Ford stands to make decent profit from the Explorer and Expedition. Those products justify further investment. The Ranger, at this time, simply does not.

 

THAT IS 100% BULLSHIT. THE VEHICLE HAS BEEN THE SAME FOR 20 YEARS!!!!!! They have a piece of shit on the market and wonder why sales have gone down the tube. Same with the fricking mini-van market, they put out 100% shit and wonder why it doesn't sell, then we get "the market is moving away" The market is still large enough for large profits with good products. The market is a lot bigger than the full size suv market. Everyone all it is going to do is give toyota more LOYAL customers, the tacoma is the the best truck in its class so when people who have it want to move up where are they going to go? To the all new tundra of course, but ford gives americans shitty vehicles like the 2 decade old ranger and wonder why it doesn't sell.

 

4) As a matter of fact, I DO see many Freestyles on the road. You might want to tally up (as of the end of June) all the D3 sales for the year. D3 sales at the end of June were even with June of '05. Chrysler 300 + Pacifica volume is down, Toyota Avalon + Highlander volume is down--FIVE HUNDRED + MONTEGO + FREESTYLE VOLUME IS FLAT. The D3 cars are taking market share from established competitors.

The D3 are good cars they just have the worst dullest styling in automotive history and they have lack luster power. The Highlander is down because the new rav4 is got much bigger and has more than doubled its sales knocking the escape down the latter. The highlander still kills the freestyle in sales even though it s old now. The problem with the freestyle is it doesn't bring new customers to the Ford name, The edge will definately attract import buyers but the freestyle is a dump.

 

And let's look at the financial situation of Ford Motor Company: They have more cash on hand than GM, they have a better debt to equity ratio, they have a stronger credit operation that they do not have to sell, they have a much smaller dependence on North American operations than GM, they have reduced product lead time to 22 months, and they have implemented one of the most comprehensive and forward-looking global product development strategies in the business.

Now does this product lead time account for leaving the exterior basically the same on everysignle redesign they do? Whe was they last time Ford introduced redesign car(meening keeping the product name) with completely new sheet metal? They don't because they leave vehicles on lots to die and after decades of negligence when they finally decide to do a redesign the name is so tarnished they have to change it.

 

Finally, to this allegation of "no new product": From November of this year to November of next, Ford will be launching over a million units of all new product. That's a third of their product lineup. A new Super Duty (400k units), new Expedition (100k units), new Navigator (30k units), new Mazda6 (100k units), new Mazda CX9 (25k units), new Edge and MKX (150k units--conservatively), a new Escape, Tribute, and Mariner (250k units), the Land Rover LR2 (30k units), S80 (40k units), C70 (25k units), and a new Focus--as in all new sheetmetal, interior, substantial chassis upgrades, and a new transmission--y'know--like the 'all-new' Camry (200k units).

The expedition won't hit 100k anymore especially with the same exterior styling, Does the super duty sell 400k a year? Anyways i know it is a work truck but wnhy did they have to make it aztek ugly? The new navigator has the same exterior except the uglyfide the front and rear. The new mazda six should be great and can't wait for that. The edge should be fantastic as well and should do well, the lincoln however is further destroying the brand, WTF is wrong with ford? All the mkx is, is a trim level? Jesus fricking christ give lincoln unique products. The new escape, tribute and mariner aren't changing all their sheet metal and that won't bold well, the new rav4 is completely new and doubled sales. WTH does ford never ever change the side profiles?

 

There's also the refreshed D3s (220k units), and possibly the MKS (30k units).

The refresh on the D3'sn should be helpfull but the MKS is exactly why lincoln will never be a player in the luxury field, all it is, is a ford trim level now.

 

What amazes me is the people on this board who latch onto pet products (e.g. the Ranger, or the Crown Vic), and then carp about how Ford "never" refreshes their products, while the entire lineup around the cars in question change.

 

That is the absolute stupidist thing you can say, There is no excuse to abandon products like ford has done. No other car company does it like ford does they are able to change all their vehicles not pick and choose.

 

You think someone looking for a mid-size truck gives a rat ass that ford introduced the fusion? Same with people looking at compact cars. Ford is synonamous with launch and abandon and that is why they spiraled down the latter and are fighting to stay alive, pretty soon they can't survive off their cash reserves for ever.

[mkoesel]

I wonder what would happen if Ford canceled every single car in their upcoming portfolio and instead just built the concepts and other vehicles that the enthusiasts want them to build. I mean things like Fiesta, 427, 49, Australian Falcon, Ecosport, C1 Focus, Mk 9, Capri, Reflex, Cougar, various SVT products, etc., etc. You still have to cover every segment of course, so that list is in no way complete.

 

Well, the answer is that they would lose tons of market share, right off the bat.

 

But, the question the becomes, would they lose more market share than they already have lost, are losing right now, and are going to lose throughout the remainder of the decade (and beyond). Maybe a couple years ago the answer would be "hell yes it would be more." But now, these days, I am not so sure anymore. Maybe the time and opportunity for such a radical move has long since past. Ans surely hindsight is 20/20. But, wow, you really have to wonder if the beancounters ever sit back and think about what could have been. At some point you really have to ask yourself if all the penny pinching and the stop-gap mentality is winning you one single thing in the long run? And sure, you could say the same for GM. Perhaps even moreso.

 

Then of course we look at DCX and it would be easy to say that they've done roughly what I state above already, and look where they are - in the same place as the other two, shedding marketshare by the pound. And that would be a valid point. But the story is a little different there, since they are even more guilty of neglect in the bread and butter segments than Ford and GM. They pump out some spectacular show-car cum production-cars, but they do so without covering all the bases. I believe there is a viable strategy that combines the business models of DCX, Ford and GM into a profitable company with the means to compete against the foreign competition. Unfortunately, these machines are just too big and complex to put it in to place. At least to date.

[Michael Reynolds]

First of all, the Highlander was down even before the RAV4 made it's way to the market place. Remove the Hybrid sales from that product line and the sales are that much closer to Pacifica as well as the Freestyle. To be quite honest the only real competition to the Freestyle is the Pacifica and possibly the Subie Forester. The Freestyle is nothing to look at, but then again neither is the Highlander and I'm sure from a performance standpoint both vehicles run neck and neck. The only reason that vehicle continues to sell somewhat well is because of the Toyota emblem on the bonnet. If you feel otherwise, give me one reason (aside from styling) why you think its' a much more superior product to the Freestyle.

 

Unless some of you have seen fully unveiled production versions of the Escape, how can you sit here with a straight face and claim that the refresh is not enough? The Focus?

 

The Ranger is only around for what another year, year-and-a-half. Only to be replaced with an all new platform.

 

So what's up with this dullest BS? Can you substantiate that, or is it strictly your OWN opinion? I'm guessing you've never seen previous gen: Civics, Accords, Camrys, Corollas before because those, even when they were all new, are about as dull as designs can get. The D3s may not be the fastest, but from my understanding most of the consumers that purchased/leased those vehicles have no complaints with acceleration.

[DCK]

First of all, the Highlander was down even before the RAV4 made it's way to the market place. Remove the Hybrid sales from that product line and the sales are that much closer to Pacifica as well as the Freestyle. To be quite honest the only real competition to the Freestyle is the Pacifica and possibly the Subie Forester. The Freestyle is nothing to look at, but then again neither is the Highlander and I'm sure from a performance standpoint both vehicles run neck and neck. The only reason that vehicle continues to sell somewhat well is because of the Toyota emblem on the bonnet. If you feel otherwise, give me one reason (aside from styling) why you think its' a much more superior product to the Freestyle.

 

I agree that the Highlander is selling well because of its toyota badge on the front, but it also has great reputation. It doesn't change the fact that the freestyle is absolutely dull and under powered.

 

Unless some of you have seen fully unveiled production versions of the Escape, how can you sit here with a straight face and claim that the refresh is not enough? The Focus?

The spy photos show that the side will remain the same and insiders have said it, but in all fairness i will wait until uncamoed shots. Let's wait and see, will ford dissapoint?

 

The Ranger is only around for what another year, year-and-a-half. Only to be replaced with an all new platform.

What 1 1/2 years on top off two decades on the lot? What a joke. Do we even have proof a new ranger is coming.?

 

So what's up with this dullest BS? Can you substantiate that, or is it strictly your OWN opinion? I'm guessing you've never seen previous gen: Civics, Accords, Camrys, Corollas before because those, even when they were all new, are about as dull as designs can get. The D3s may not be the fastest, but from my understanding most of the consumers that purchased/leased those vehicles have no complaints with acceleration.

 

But the new generations of Honda's and toyota's aren't as dull. Anyways Honda and toyota sell on what? Oh yeah. their blue whale size quality repuation or perception depending on what you believe. Ford has a repution for Fix or repair daily, putting out ho-hum styled cars with mediocre engines isn't going to get people in the show room, They should be competitive and avalon has 268 Horse power, That is why ford is giving the D3's the new 3.5 because even they know the cars need more power.

[Michael Reynolds]

Honda's styling is still nothing to write home about, and while we are speaking of reskins the ones for both the Pilot and Accord happen to be as half-a$$'d as some of the Ranger and Focus updates. Toyota has gotten a bit better, but its almost like they are looking over at what Mazda has done and feel the need to mimick their design language (something that hasn't worked all too well).

 

The D3s were destined for the Duratec 35 before they were even launched, but being in the situation Ford was in it was either launch the vehicles now and give them a refresh w/ the new engine (which was their point all along in the first place), or wait (silly idea). Of course these cars won't blow your pants off, but they aren't the snails that many claim them to be.

[DCK]

Honda's styling is still nothing to write home about, and while we are speaking of reskins the ones for both the Pilot and Accord happen to be as half-a$$'d as some of the Ranger and Focus updates. Toyota has gotten a bit better, but its almost like they are looking over at what Mazda has done and feel the need to mimick their design language (something that hasn't worked all too well).

Have you seen the civic? It is very sleek and futuristic and looks stunning, the only car that can even hold a candle to it in the compact market is the mazda 3. Second the pilot and accord are reskinned after 3 years on the market and well be 100% new next year which would make their product life 5 years. I can't believe you even posted that. The ranger is on the lot for 2 deacades with minimal updates and the focus has been on the lot since 1999, then 5 years later when Honda would have had a total redsign, Ford refreshes it and they do it oh so slightly, then in 2008 we will get another reskin and maybe in 2011 or 2012 we will get an all new focus. Honda would have had 3 all new civics out during the time the same focus has been rotting on lots with just refreshes. I agree 100% though with the camrylooking like a mazda six.

 

The D3s were destined for the Duratec 35 before they were even launched, but being in the situation Ford was in it was either launch the vehicles now and give them a refresh w/ the new engine (which was their point all along in the first place), or wait (silly idea). Of course these cars won't blow your pants off, but they aren't the snails that many claim them to be.

This is beating a dead horse because they are getting the upgrades but the fact is they are underpowered in their segment regardless of what you say, 203<<<<<268, plain and simple. The refresh and new engine should really help the 500 out.

Edited August 3, 2006 by DCK

[Michael Reynolds]

Have you seen the civic? It is very sleek and futuristic and looks stunning, the only car that can even hold a candle to it in the compact market is the mazda 3. Second the pilot and accord are reskinned after 3 years on the market and well be 100% new next year which would make their product life 5 years. I can't believe you even posted that. The ranger is on the lot for 2 deacades with minimal updates and the focus has been on the lot since 1999, then 5 years later when Honda would have had a total redsign, Ford refreshes it and they do it oh so slightly, then in 2008 we will get another reskin and maybe in 2011 or 2012 we will get an all new focus. Honda would have had 3 all new civics out during the time the same focus has been rotting on lots with just refreshes. I agree 100% though with the camrylooking like a mazda six.

This is beating a dead horse because they are getting the upgrades but the fact is they are underpowered in their segment regardless of what you say, 203<<<<<268, plain and simple. The refresh and new engine should really help the 500 out.

 

No I've yet to see a Civic? I don't leave my house, and when I do I wear a blindfold.

 

Why would you even ask a silly question like that? Obviously I don't feel that the Civic is anything to write home about, otherwise I wouldn't have said what I did. Dual tier dashboards, complete with digital speedos, a dashboard that you could serve a 5 course meal on, and an exterior design that looks like something out of Flight of the Navigator, really don't excite me. Then again that's my opinion, just like the one you expressed.

 

Regardless as to whether or not the Pilot and Accord will be replaced a year from now, two weeks from now, or a day from now. The reskin of both vehicles retains almost every design element from the orginal boring ass designs that debuted 4 years ago.

 

When did I ever say that the 500 had more than ample power? I simply indicated that the power was ample for what most consumers utilize those vehicles for. Of course those cars could utilize a bigger engine and more distinctive styling, but as we've noticed with the Avalon (and some extent the 300) those two things do not gurantee tons of volume.

[bystander]

1Finally, to this allegation of "no new product": From November of this year to November of next, Ford will be launching over a million units of all new product. That's a third of their product lineup. A new Super Duty (400k units), new Expedition (100k units), new Navigator (30k units), new Mazda6 (100k units), new Mazda CX9 (25k units), new Edge and MKX (150k units--conservatively), a new Escape, Tribute, and Mariner (250k units), the Land Rover LR2 (30k units), S80 (40k units), C70 (25k units), and a new Focus--as in all new sheetmetal, interior, substantial chassis upgrades, and a new transmission--y'know--like the 'all-new' Camry (200k units).

 

There's also the refreshed D3s (220k units), and possibly the MKS (30k units).

 

Richard, you're simply wrong here. Maybe if you realized it, you wouldn't be so happy about the direction management is taking the company. The 'new' SuperDuty is not all new as you state. Same cab, same box, new front end, interior, diesel, and tailgate treatment. Sound like a familiar formula? The 2006 Explorer followed the same gameplan and it didn't work. Same with the 'new' Expedition and 'new' Navigator--new nose, interior, chassis, same greenhouse, doors, and general proportions. Clearly not all new as you claim. Neither is the 2008 Escape (new nose, interior, door skins, completely carryover greenhouse). And Edmunds says the 2008 Focus will only get a new nose, interior, and minor mechanical upgrades.

 

So that knocks out about 980k of the units you had claimed to be all new. Only the Edge/MKX and maybe some of that low volume PAG stuff are going to be truly new for 2008MY. Why is Ford so stingy on redesigning its bread-and-butter products?

 

 

If you don't believe me, take a look at Edmunds:

 

New SuperDuty:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/FVDP/...yleId=100491426

 

New Expedition/Nav:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/FVDP/...yleId=100531319

 

New Escape:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/FVDP/...yleId=100704238

 

New Focus:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/FVDP/...yleId=100728682

[92merc]

Hey, if Toyoda can call their Camry "all new" and nothing has changed, why are you banging on Ford? At least be consistent and say "everyone" shouldn't be doing it.

[bystander]

Hey, if Toyoda can call their Camry "all new" and nothing has changed, why are you banging on Ford? At least be consistent and say "everyone" shouldn't be doing it.

 

The Camry at least looks all new. Every thing the customer sees is new. The Fords clearly do not look all new. Maybe if Ford adopted Toyota's formula for redesigning its products it would be more successful.

 

Ford should realize by now that these half-ass freshenings don't cut the mustard. I've quoted it before, but according to Einstein the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[swenson88]

The Camry at least looks all new. Every thing the customer sees is new. The Fords clearly do not look all new. Maybe if Ford adopted Toyota's formula for redesigning its products it would be more successful.

 

Ford should realize by now that these half-ass freshenings don't cut the mustard. I've quoted it before, but according to Einstein the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Aside from the Expy/Navi and SuperDuty, I think we will see that the Focus DOES look all new, and I'm hoping the same for the Escape/Mariner. Yes, the Explorer/Mountaineer needed more sheetmetal changes, but in reality the Explorer was only 4 years into its model cycle, they should have just waited one or two years and done a full redesign, not the refreshening. The SuperDuty can get by with its current sheetmetal because it's that good. It still think it's the best looking fullsize truck on the market almost ten years later. Of course I own one, so maybe I'm biased. We'll see with the 2008 round of "reskins" if Ford has learned their lesson. For their sake I hope so.

[silvrsvt]

Aside from the Expy/Navi and SuperDuty, I think we will see that the Focus DOES look all new, and I'm hoping the same for the Escape/Mariner. Yes, the Explorer/Mountaineer needed more sheetmetal changes, but in reality the Explorer was only 4 years into its model cycle, they should have just waited one or two years and done a full redesign, not the refreshening. The SuperDuty can get by with its current sheetmetal because it's that good. It still think it's the best looking fullsize truck on the market almost ten years later. Of course I own one, so maybe I'm biased. We'll see with the 2008 round of "reskins" if Ford has learned their lesson. For their sake I hope so.

 

 

But also keep in mind that all those products are in shrinking markets and no matter what ford would have done to them, it wouldnt stem the loss in sales from them becoming unpopluar or shielding them from the price increases in gas. The Super Duty is execpted from that, since who buys most SD? Contractors who could give less then a fuck bout how they look to a point, they are more concerned about how good it runs and how well it performs.

 

I think Ford was smarter to spend money on what they did vs more bold styling changes since they laided down a great framework to allow the vechicles to age on since they are in a shrinking market and get away with just spending money on styling changes down the road.