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Fusion Coupe and Boss Stang approved


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Of course you use the same rods in the 4.6l and the 5.4l. The change in displacement is achieved by the longer stroke crank and stepped block. That is how they keep production cost down.

 

http://www.fordtrucksonline.com/ford-5.4l-engine-specs.htm

 

Length Center-To-Center: 6.657 in.

 

http://www.meadowlandford.com/ford-4.6L-engine-specs.htm

 

Length Center-To-Center: 5.933 in.

 

Maybe I should ask you:

 

"Why do you post on topics you have no knowledge of.

Just make stuff up and spout off."

 

?

 

If you understand engine geometry, you'd never suggest the two motors have the same rods. 4.6L rods in a 5.4L would give an insane rod-ratio with horrible cylinder side-wall forces.

 

Even the heads on the 5.4l and 4.6l are the same casting. The 2V 4.6 and 5.4 used the same head casting on the left and right side.
Right. No one's disputing that, and it's got nothing to do with displacement as discussed above.

 

Weaken the crank? Plus in a production setting not cost effective. Requires a new crank with different journal sizes and different rods and rod bearings. That is a major problem in production.

 

The crank will definitely be weaker, but there's nothing to say for certain that it would not be durable enough for production. Regarding the cost effectiveness, it would be no less costly than producing a completely seperate block with taller deck, which you had just proposed as a cost effective solution yourself.

 

The reason they don't want to increase the bore is that all the equipment is setup to produce the existing bore size and it is incredibly expensive and complicated to do that. The 4.6l, 5.4l and v10 all use the same bore size. When you are making a million plus motors a year it is very dificult to adjust that. You would need to think that it is worthwile to produce the engines in an offsite facility.

 

Yes, already discussed above in my exchange with RJ. And also not relevant to the points of yours I addressed in my post.

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I was wondering how Saleen pulled off the 5.0. I was hoping they made they're own engine like the one in the S7 to justify the cost of the thing.

 

Like I said before, a 2 door Fusion done right would make me forget selling my 96 Tbird. If they made it look like that Photoshop with about 300 ponies and awd I'de never think about the 'Bird ever again.

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All the drag racers I know that run small block Ford use 351 Windsors. That race car that runs the 24 hr races(Panoz?) very successfully runs a pushrod Ford.

 

Well, a 351W ain't exactly the same animal as a 302 is it? The 351 is on a whole other level, IMO. Beefier in almost every way than a 302, the ability to go pretty huge with displacement, and the selection of awesome aftermarket heads makes them hard to touch.

 

Besides that fact, Yates had success with a big bore 4V in the Rolex 24 hrs. at Daytona. The big bore FRPP Cammers also dominated Grand Am cup until they got nailed with all the penalties.

 

I also know of some very, very fast 4V modular drag cars. Mihovetz runs 6s @ 210+ mph with a turbo 4.6 in Pro 5.0. Al Papitto runs mid 9s @ ~ 140 mph with a n/a 5.4L 4V and a pro-shifted TKO 5 speed. The Tymenskys ran low 9s @ 145 mph with a naturally aspirated big bore 5.0L 4V.

 

I still stand by statement that a big bore 4V will pretty much annihilate a 302, even a warmed over one, any day. Pretty mild big bore 4V combos (standard FR500 intake, as cast FR500 heads [no better than stock '03-'04 4V heads], FR500 cams [they are mild with no noticeable lope, 212/204 @.050", 109 LSA] and a big bore bottom end with about 11:1) have made 470 rwhp N/A.

 

You'll struggle to get that number out of a serious 331 N/A, and if you do get it, it won't be nearly as driveable as that big bore 4V will be. Mod Motors are also slowly taking over NMRA, rules changes seemingly come weekly in the Factory Stock, Renegade, and Real Street classes to keep to modulars in check. People have finally figured these engines out and it is showing.

Edited by White99GT
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Well, a 351W ain't exactly the same animal as a 302 is it? The 351 is on a whole other level, IMO. Beefier in almost every way than a 302, the ability to go pretty huge with displacement, and the selection of awesome aftermarket heads makes them hard to touch.

 

Besides that fact, Yates had success with a big bore 4V in the Rolex 24 hrs. at Daytona. The big bore FRPP Cammers also dominated Grand Am cup until they got nailed with all the penalties.

 

I also know of some very, very fast 4V modular drag cars. Mihovetz runs 6s @ 210+ mph with a turbo 4.6 in Pro 5.0. Al Papitto runs mid 9s @ ~ 140 mph with a n/a 5.4L 4V and a pro-shifted TKO 5 speed. The Tymenskys ran low 9s @ 145 mph with a naturally aspirated big bore 5.0L 4V.

 

I still stand by statement that a big bore 4V will pretty much annihilate a 302, even a warmed over one, any day. Pretty mild big bore 4V combos (standard FR500 intake, as cast FR500 heads [no better than stock '03-'04 4V heads], FR500 cams [they are mild with no noticeable lope, 212/204 @.050", 109 LSA] and a big bore bottom end with about 11:1) have made 470 rwhp N/A.

 

You'll struggle to get that number out of a serious 331 N/A, and if you do get it, it won't be nearly as driveable as that big bore 4V will be. Mod Motors are also slowly taking over NMRA, rules changes seemingly come weekly in the Factory Stock, Renegade, and Real Street classes to keep to modulars in check. People have finally figured these engines out and it is showing.

 

Let's add to that that Mihovetz is running those 6's using a factory block casting. The quickest stock-block Windsor I know of is stuck in the 8's somewhere.

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Well, a 351W ain't exactly the same animal as a 302 is it? The 351 is on a whole other level, IMO. Beefier in almost every way than a 302, the ability to go pretty huge with displacement, and the selection of awesome aftermarket heads makes them hard to touch.

 

...

 

You'll struggle to get that number out of a serious 331 N/A, and if you do get it, it won't be nearly as driveable as that big bore 4V will be. Mod Motors are also slowly taking over NMRA, rules changes seemingly come weekly in the Factory Stock, Renegade, and Real Street classes to keep to modulars in check. People have finally figured these engines out and it is showing.

 

any head that'll bolt onto a 351 block, windsor or cleveland or yates, will bolt onto a 302 block. There's no "beefier" factory windsor block. There is a windsor block that has a taller deck height, but everything else is pretty much the same. The only good thing about the tall-deck version of the windsor is that it will enclose more displacement. And since there's "no replacement for displacement", racers tend to gravitate towards the tall-deck windsor, and aftermarket producers/users do too.

 

as for mod vs 302 comparisons: it's all in the heads. Put a set of 4V OHC heads on a windsor block and suddenly it all goes back to "there's no replacement for displacement". End of story. The 302 was a piddler until the 4v cleveland heads got bolted on. The 351 windsor passed through the cleveland-bolt-on phase for a short while until Yates finally just made a "cleveland" Windsor head for it. If someone made a 4V head for the windsor family, I think you'd see a stampede away from the mod's to the 4VW in any class that allowed it.

 

Does anyone know what the EXACT bore spacing of this new BOSS block is spec'd at?

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Does anyone know what the EXACT bore spacing of this new BOSS block is spec'd at?

 

Are you refering to the rumored 5L going into the rumored Boss Mustang?

 

If so, it will have the same bore centers as any other MOD - 100mm.

 

Standard bore size is 90.2mm

Cammer bore size is 94mm

Max production bore size is 93mm (allegedly)

Max boresize without structural failure is 95mm (allegedly) This was used by 427 concept.

 

A 93mm x 91mm bore would do it. Has the disadvantage of requiring both bigger bore and bigger crank (only by 1mm).

 

Now, if you were refering to the Hurricane motor (which has sometimes been refered to as BOSS, though I don't know how it got that association), then I don't believe the bore spacing is publicly known yet.

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Are you refering to the rumored 5L going into the rumored Boss Mustang?

 

If so, it will have the same bore centers as any other MOD - 100mm.

 

Standard bore size is 90.2mm

Cammer bore size is 94mm

Max production bore size is 93mm (allegedly)

Max boresize without structural failure is 95mm (allegedly) This was used by 427 concept.

 

A 93mm x 91mm bore would do it. Has the disadvantage of requiring both bigger bore and bigger crank (only by 1mm).

 

Now, if you were refering to the Hurricane motor (which has sometimes been refered to as BOSS, though I don't know how it got that association), then I don't believe the bore spacing is publicly known yet.

 

 

I don't understand all the fuss about "302" or "5.0". Neither one, was. The "5.0" was actually "4.9", the "302" I guess rounded its way (barely) there, but there is such a long history of displacement fudging at Ford (even the much ballyhooed "427" wasn't, though the 428 was 427...got that?) that 1mm here or there isn't going to stop them.

 

Call it whatever, Boss 300, Boss 350, Boss 400 are sort of metric (glad we're making it easy for the guys still using sliderules) while coming close to the actual cubic inches of the various iterations.

 

The bore spacing I was looking for was for the Hurricane.

Edited by Sizzler
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Remember the 80's?

 

44804.jpg

 

LOL, exactly.

 

Its more of a marketing tool than anything else. And, sure, they could just build a 4.9L and call it a 5.0L like the old FE. But they'll get crucified by the press if they pull that in this day and age.

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any head that'll bolt onto a 351 block, windsor or cleveland or yates, will bolt onto a 302 block.

 

Well, no shit. It's just that something like a TFS R head is all but useless on a 302 based engine due to displacement limitations. Get a 408W and the game changes quite a bit.

 

There's no "beefier" factory windsor block.

 

The factory Windsor block is inherently beefier than a 302 block.

 

There is a windsor block that has a taller deck height, but everything else is pretty much the same.
A bit more than that actually. A 351W is not as similar to a 302 as say, a 5.4 is to a 4.6. The 351W mains are bigger than a 302s, walls are thicker, etc. I assume you've had your hands inside of 351Ws and 302s, if so, you should have realized the 351W is just an all around beefier engine.

 

as for mod vs 302 comparisons: it's all in the heads. Put a set of 4V OHC heads on a windsor block and suddenly it all goes back to "there's no replacement for displacement". End of story.

 

If all factors are equal, then yes, there is no replacement for displacement. All factors are definitely not equal when comparing a 4V Mod to a pushrod however.

 

The 302 was a piddler until the 4v cleveland heads got bolted on. The 351 windsor passed through the cleveland-bolt-on phase for a short while until Yates finally just made a "cleveland" Windsor head for it. If someone made a 4V head for the windsor family, I think you'd see a stampede away from the mod's to the 4VW in any class that allowed it.
Yes, if those 4V heads worked well enough they probably would since a 4.00" bore is far more desirable than a 3.55" bore. I am a fan of the modulars for three reasons, deep skirt block w/ cross bolted main, those long head bolts, and the 4V heads. A modular with a Windsor's bore spacing would be nuts.

 

Does anyone know what the EXACT bore spacing of this new BOSS block is spec'd at?

 

I hope it takes the basic modular design, gives it a 4+" bore spacing, 4V heads, and DAMBs instead or RF followers. If they do this it will be the finest American V8-family ever produced, bar none.

Edited by White99GT
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LOL, exactly.

 

Its more of a marketing tool than anything else. And, sure, they could just build a 4.9L and call it a 5.0L like the old FE. But they'll get crucified by the press if they pull that in this day and age.

:D

Mark, I'm amazed that someone as knowledgeable as you made this minor slip-up!

 

For everyone else:

FE's came in 332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, and 428 displacements. The 302 was a member of what Ford called the 90-degree-V family (a.k.a. "Windsor" or "Cleveland")

 

 

FE - Ol' Henry's cast-iron cure for whatever ails ya.

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Well, no shit. It's just that something like a TFS R head is all but useless on a 302 based engine due to displacement limitations. Get a 408W and the game changes quite a bit.

 

TFS R heads on an 8.2" Windsor will work, granted you are either building a very high-revving engine or something that's going to get a lot of boost thrown at it. (Either combination makes for a very fun car) Keep in mind the 4V Cobra heads are capable of outflowing many big block heads as cast, and they work fine on a 281 cid engine.

 

If the Modular's were capable of large displacements that engine would destroy all V8s before or after it, no questions asked.

 

If all factors are equal, then yes, there is no replacement for displacement. All factors are definitely not equal when comparing a 4V Mod to a pushrod however.

Yes, if those 4V heads worked well enough they probably would since a 4.00" bore is far more desirable than a 3.55" bore. I am a fan of the modulars for three reasons, deep skirt block w/ cross bolted main, those long head bolts, and the 4V heads. A modular with a Windsor's bore spacing would be nuts.

I hope it takes the basic modular design, gives it a 4+" bore spacing, 4V heads, and DAMBs instead or RF followers. If they do this it will be the finest American V8-family ever produced, bar none.

 

The Modular is just a much more durable engine than the Windsor, at least when factory versions are compared. That's why the Teskid aluminum blocks in the '96-'98 Cobras can withstand well over 600-700 HP, while a factory 302 can take about 400, a 351W about 500-600, and they won't last forever at those power levels.

 

Also you have to do less to a Modular to make power. If you want BIG power levels in a Windsor, every part of that engine is going to have to be serious aftermarket pieces. Modulars can make crazy power with the stock heads, and they don't need the semi-extensive oiling mods Windsors do (pretty much all aftermarket Windsor blocks use a priority-main oiling system). Obviously the Modular's biggest weakness, displacement, limits its naturally aspirated potential, but there are quite a few 800+ HP twin-turbo Cobras in this country.

 

If the Hurricane V8 has DAMBS, at at least eventually DOHC heads, it will replace Windsors as my favorite engine. It took 65 more cubic inches for the LS1 Camaros to be able to outrun the Cobra Mustangs, imagine what a 5.7L+ DOHC engine will be capable of...

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If the Modular's were capable of large displacements that engine would destroy all V8s before or after it, no questions asked.

From a production standpoint, wide bores are rather problematic, due to emissions (especially particulate). A further problem is that DI also tends to create particulate emissions problems. A DI wide bore Mod would present significant challenges for production, although it would probably be the most wicked production V8 ever built--just bolt on the biggest super charger you can find and ......... Perhaps a second spark plug (a la the Hemi) would help ensure better combustion.

 

With the Hurricane, I am sure that the block is more or less a done deal (and it's really an easy fix--add length to the current Mod), the only question is that of compliance with upcoming emissions regulations, and that's more of a head and valve timing deal.

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(Either combination makes for a very fun car) Keep in mind the 4V Cobra heads are capable of outflowing many big block heads as cast, and they work fine on a 281 cid engine.

 

Well, most of them do. The old B-headed Cobras (96-98 model years) pretty much ran like crap N/A (comparatively speaking) because they had far too much intake runner volume for the displacement. Those twin intake ports add up to something like 250cc IIRC.

 

The 1999+ tumble port C-heads, and especially the newer 2003+ heads are far superior.

 

Running an R head on a 302 would get you a combo like the B-headed Cobras, unless you want to build a 8,000 - 9,000 rpm engine.

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:D

Mark, I'm amazed that someone as knowledgeable as you made this minor slip-up!

 

For everyone else:

FE's came in 332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, and 428 displacements. The 302 was a member of what Ford called the 90-degree-V family (a.k.a. "Windsor" or "Cleveland")

FE - Ol' Henry's cast-iron cure for whatever ails ya.

 

To which engine family did the early 60's 430 belong? What displacements did it grow to include?

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that would be the MEL engine family. it also included the marauder 383, the more rare 410, and 462. the 430 was called the super marauder and it was eventually replaced by that 462. they were all made at ford's new lima plant, starting in 1958.

 

they had the strange head-block design in which the piston housed the combustion chamber.

Edited by tim kakouris
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In a wonderful world, I would be able to

1) bolt on a set of Hurricane heads onto an earlier block (FE would be my preference as it comes with the cross bolted mains and deep skirts and LOTS of fun stuff, just waiting to be bolted on tomorrow) or

 

2) bolt on a set of earlier heads onto the new Hurricane block. Through from the "immediate gratification" viewpoint, this is obviously the far down second choice.

 

Looking for immediate fun, not waiting for x-aftermarket company to meet with y-aftermarket company and decide whether they're going to make xy, x, y, or nothing at all for a couple of years. Then wait for the Chinese production to ramp up and the ships to actually make it to port....

 

NOW!

post-14934-1154992179_thumb.jpg

post-14934-1154992212_thumb.jpg

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Well, most of them do. The old B-headed Cobras (96-98 model years) pretty much ran like crap N/A (comparatively speaking) because they had far too much intake runner volume for the displacement. Those twin intake ports add up to something like 250cc IIRC.

 

The 1999+ tumble port C-heads, and especially the newer 2003+ heads are far superior.

 

That's why they had the secondary intake ports that only opened up after 3,250 RPM or something like that. If it weren't for that there's no way the early DOHC heads would have been made streetable because the engine's power band would have been much higher than the stock engine was capable of spinning to.

 

Ford eventually got tired of trying to give a n/a, small displacement OHC engine low end torque and put a blower on the 10th ann. Cobras. Made for a very nice car but once again proved that power-wise there's no replacement for displacement.

 

Your right that the C-heads are much better, the '03-'04 Cobra, Mach 1 and Marauder heads are regarded as the best DOHC heads. One problem with the earlier '99-'01 Cobra and FR500 heads was that they had cooling problems with the #7 and #8 cylinders, that was fixed in '03 though.

 

Running an R head on a 302 would get you a combo like the B-headed Cobras, unless you want to build a 8,000 - 9,000 rpm engine.

 

That would make it justifiable as a good drag car engine........having a street car without low end power sucks big time though.

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I'd love to see a Fusion coupe in production, especially if they offered the RX-8 rear doors. Doesn't have to be a hatchback but it could.

 

Oh and btw -- It wouldn't have anything to do with the Toyota Solara or Honda Accord Coupe ...naahhh it's all about the G6. Highly reccomend a test drive of a G6, it isn't all that, reminds me of a late 90's Accord. I drove a 4 door 4 banger rental with less than 5k on the odo. Not impressed at all.

 

It was a well put together car, but CHEAP everywhere. Sure the plastic was better but still not that good. Exterior mirrors way too small, poor visiblity multiple blind spots. I was trying to figure out how the rear seats fold down and popped the entire rear seat bottom cushion out of the car, nice snap fit CRAP!

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[G6] was a well put together car, but CHEAP everywhere. Sure the plastic was better but still not that good. Exterior mirrors way too small, poor visiblity multiple blind spots. I was trying to figure out how the rear seats fold down and popped the entire rear seat bottom cushion out of the car, nice snap fit CRAP!

 

Visibility issues were what steered me away from the G6 too.

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any head that'll bolt onto a 351 block, windsor or cleveland or yates, will bolt onto a 302 block. There's no "beefier" factory windsor block. There is a windsor block that has a taller deck height, but everything else is pretty much the same. The only good thing about the tall-deck version of the windsor is that it will enclose more displacement. And since there's "no replacement for displacement", racers tend to gravitate towards the tall-deck windsor, and aftermarket producers/users do too.

 

as for mod vs 302 comparisons: it's all in the heads. Put a set of 4V OHC heads on a windsor block and suddenly it all goes back to "there's no replacement for displacement". End of story. The 302 was a piddler until the 4v cleveland heads got bolted on. The 351 windsor passed through the cleveland-bolt-on phase for a short while until Yates finally just made a "cleveland" Windsor head for it. If someone made a 4V head for the windsor family, I think you'd see a stampede away from the mod's to the 4VW in any class that allowed it.

 

Does anyone know what the EXACT bore spacing of this new BOSS block is spec'd at?

 

The Hurricane/Boss has a bore center larger than the Windsor (4.380). Mustang applications will be 5.8 liters and 6.2 for trucks. It is 7 liter capable. The 5.4 and 6.8 may go away. Windsor or Essex could get the Hurricane.

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The Hurricane/Boss has a bore center larger than the Windsor (4.380). Mustang applications will be 5.8 liters and 6.2 for trucks. It is 7 liter capable. The 5.4 and 6.8 may go away. Windsor or Essex could get the Hurricane.

Keeping the Mod's deep skirt, and high deck-height to stroke ratio? 'Cause if it is..................... Wheeeeeooooww. The indestructible V8.

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The Hurricane/Boss has a bore center larger than the Windsor (4.380). Mustang applications will be 5.8 liters and 6.2 for trucks. It is 7 liter capable. The 5.4 and 6.8 may go away. Windsor or Essex could get the Hurricane.

 

That's the best news I've heard in a while! When we will we see it?

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