When will a Fusion Wagon be released??

[JimmyL57]

I am hoping for a fusion wagon since the Mondeo line has one in production. Read something about a spring 2013 release?

[akirby]

You won't see a Fusion wagon until American buyers prove that they'll buy them in sufficient quanitity. So far they haven't so it's understandable that most mfrs are gunshy.

[jeff_h]

And that might not be soon with the rise in popularity of the SUV/Crossover. The only mainstream wagons I see listed when I look in the category are the Subaru Outback and Dodge Caliber... there are a few others but they seem to be rather high in price.

[akirby]

People bought wagons before trucks and SUVs became viable family haulers and before CUVs were invented. Most people prefer the looks and stance of a CUV or SUV to the better handling and lower ride height of a wagon. Ford can't build it if people won't buy it. Well they could but then they'd be GM.

[FordBuyer]

People bought wagons before trucks and SUVs became viable family haulers and before CUVs were invented. Most people prefer the looks and stance of a CUV or SUV to the better handling and lower ride height of a wagon. Ford can't build it if people won't buy it. Well they could but then they'd be GM.

 

Or MB, Acura, BMW, Audi, or VW. And again, more stringent CAFE rules are fast approaching and CUV's still get shitty fuel numbers in comparison.

[Biker16]

You won't see a Fusion wagon until American buyers prove that they'll buy them in sufficient quanitity. So far they haven't so it's understandable that most mfrs are gunshy.

 

how can you prove a market for something that doesn't exist?

 

how did Chrysler know the minivan would work? how did for know that the explorer would be a success? they didn't know for certain and they took a RISK and educated risk but a risk nonetheless.

 

the risk on a Fusion wagon is a magnitude less than that of the explorer of a minivan. in essence it already exists, it meets all standards and can be built in the US at minimal cost.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Biker16

[akirby]

how can you prove a market for something that doesn't exist?

 

how did Chrysler know the minivan would work? how did for know that the explorer would be a success? they didn't know for certain and they took a RISK and educated risk but a risk nonetheless.

 

the risk on a Fusion wagon is a magnitude less than that of the explorer of a minivan. in essence it already exists, it meets all standards and can be built in the US at minimal cost.

 

You're talking about things that never existed before. The wagon has been sold in the U.S. in many forms by many mfrs including Ford with the Escort and Taurus wagons. Most recently Dodge had a Magnum wagon. Some mfrs still make wagons in the U.S. They don't sell and there is no evidence that that market has changed. Zero. Nada.

 

Unless you can point to something that's changed the market then you can't argue with past sales success or lack thereof.

[FordBuyer]

You're talking about things that never existed before. The wagon has been sold in the U.S. in many forms by many mfrs including Ford with the Escort and Taurus wagons. Most recently Dodge had a Magnum wagon. Some mfrs still make wagons in the U.S. They don't sell and there is no evidence that that market has changed. Zero. Nada.

 

Unless you can point to something that's changed the market then you can't argue with past sales success or lack thereof.

 

Every friciking day I'm out and about I see a ton of used wagons on road. And many I would bet are holding onto them because so few manufacturers other than Germany produce them anymore, and other than Jetta high priced. I would bet there are millions of used wagons still on road, and even if you could only get 10% of them, combining them with Canada's love for them you could make a case of selling 30,000-50,000+ of them without much domestic competition. Ford could even export them from Europe where they have unused capacity and really nothing to lose.

[akirby]

Every friciking day I'm out and about I see a ton of used wagons on road. And many I would bet are holding onto them because so few manufacturers other than Germany produce them anymore, and other than Jetta high priced. I would bet there are millions of used wagons still on road, and even if you could only get 10% of them, combining them with Canada's love for them you could make a case of selling 30,000-50,000+ of them without much domestic competition. Ford could even export them from Europe where they have unused capacity and really nothing to lose.

 

They were offered for sale and people didn't buy them. I don't care how many you see in Metro Detroit. You can't argue with hard cold facts unless you can point to something that has changed in the marketplace recently. If anything we have more CUV choices than ever before which takes away even more potential wagon buyers.

 

It's a niche market and would not warrant diverting Hermosillo production from sedans right now and you can't just import one from Europe without making changes. Perhaps once Flat Rock is up and running and they have extra capacity they could import the stampings and assemble them here but that's a longer term proposition. Even then I'm not sure there is enough demand to warrant the investment.

[MKII]

Engineer Q&A: Adrian Whittle, Fusion chief engineer.................What about the talk of bringing other variants to the U.S.?

 

 

Once we start getting capacity out of Hermosillo, then we'll start looking at other variants. The market just doesn't seem to be going that way -- that's the only thing. You know in the company we love our wagons. In Europe, they're over 50 percent of the mix. It's amazing there's been a big shift in C/D-sized sedan - about 70 percent for us was wagons. So we put a lot of effort into getting it right for Europe. It's a beautiful car, but honestly, I just don't see it for the U.S. market. But maybe... You know, you never say never. The car's global, and we can easily get that car federalized if we wanted it here.

 

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1209_2013_ford_fusion_first_test/viewall.html#ixzz29O8OK11R

[akirby]

Is there an echo in here?

[FordBuyer]

Engineer Q&A: Adrian Whittle, Fusion chief engineer.................What about the talk of bringing other variants to the U.S.?

 

 

Once we start getting capacity out of Hermosillo, then we'll start looking at other variants. The market just doesn't seem to be going that way -- that's the only thing. You know in the company we love our wagons. In Europe, they're over 50 percent of the mix. It's amazing there's been a big shift in C/D-sized sedan - about 70 percent for us was wagons. So we put a lot of effort into getting it right for Europe. It's a beautiful car, but honestly, I just don't see it for the U.S. market. But maybe... You know, you never say never. The car's global, and we can easily get that car federalized if we wanted it here.

 

Read more: http://www.motortren...l#ixzz29O8OK11R

 

Seems to me 30,000-50,000 Fusion wagon number/year is very doable, especially if you consider no high volume competition from those that still sell wagons here. And no competition from domestics. Ford would have niche to themselves. Furthermore, I would bet most would be added Fusion sales in that many would buy Fusion wagon because it's only domestic choice out there. Again, lots of used wagons still running out there, and not just in MI. Ford should most definitely think about it as it retools Flat Rock plant. The more guys like Kirby argue against it with their narrow view of the world, the more it makes sense.

[akirby]

Seems to me 30,000-50,000 Fusion wagon number/year is very doable

 

Seems to me you're pulling numbers out of your arse again.

 

Ford sold 58K Freestyles before the Edge came out. Then sales dropped way off until it was cancelled. The last full year the Taurus X only sold 23K.

 

Crossovers have made wagons a niche market. Once Ford gets Flat Rock up and running we might see a wagon but only if there aren't any other higher priority projects.

You can't build a Fusion wagon for free.

[aneekr]

Ford sold 58K Freestyles before the Edge came out. Then sales dropped way off until it was cancelled. The last full year the Taurus X only sold 23K.

 

The Freestyle and Taurus X were among the best products developed using Ford's D3 platform. It's disconcerting that such a good effort wasn't rewarded with more robust sales numbers. Perhaps this is one reason why Ford is reticent to market a wagon variant of the Fusion/Mondeo in the U.S., unfortunate as that may be.

[NickF1011]

Ford would have niche to themselves.

 

Ask Honda how going after that bloated crossover wagon niche is working out for them. Not saying it's the same as the station wagon niche, but it is a niche they have all to themselves.

 

Exclusivity is no guarantee of success.

Edited October 15, 2012 by NickF1011

[FordBuyer]

Ask Honda how going after that bloated crossover wagon niche is working out for them. Not saying it's the same as the station wagon niche, but it is a niche they have all to themselves.

 

Exclusivity is no guarantee of success.

 

Maybe a valid survey for Ford would be to ask all those driving wagons now including the much older one's out there whether they would buy a wagon again and how many would consider a Ford. I bet a decent number since Ford has always had a reputation for building nice wagons. And we are not talking about mediocre fuel mileage Flex, Freestyle, or Taurus X, but a Fusion or Focus wagon that gets exact, same fuel mileage as sedan. A sedan doesn't fit everyone's lifestyle. I heard the same argument about hatches....no one would buy them until Ford did so with Focus and Fiesta and charge more for them as added bonus/profit.

[NickF1011]

Maybe a valid survey for Ford would be to ask all those driving wagons now including the much older one's out there whether they would buy a wagon again and how many would consider a Ford. I bet a decent number since Ford has always had a reputation for building nice wagons. And we are not talking about mediocre fuel mileage Flex, Freestyle, or Taurus X, but a Fusion or Focus wagon that gets exact, same fuel mileage as sedan. A sedan doesn't fit everyone's lifestyle. I heard the same argument about hatches....no one would buy them until Ford did so with Focus and Fiesta and charge more for them as added bonus/profit.

 

If they are driving significantly older vehicles, wagons or not, they are probably not going to be new vehicle buyers regardless of what you build for them.

[FordBuyer]

If they are driving significantly older vehicles, wagons or not, they are probably not going to be new vehicle buyers regardless of what you build for them.

 

So how did Ford figure out that hatches would sell after ending previous Focus hatch and saying Americans don't like hatches. Make a stylish statement with wagon like you did with Focus hatch that looks better than sedan, and offer same high fuel mileage with a ton of cargo room, and I doubt if everyone would turn their noses up like they didn't with Focus or Fiesta hatch. Arguably, the European Mondeo wagon is better looking than the sedan and especially distinctive. Subaru proves there are more than a few practical people out there with very active lifestyles. I don't know...maybe Ford figures a Fusion/Focus wagon would take away sales from Escape. Could be a valid point I guess, especially since Focus wagon would get better fuel mileage for sure.

[NickF1011]

So how did Ford figure out that hatches would sell after ending previous Focus hatch and saying Americans don't like hatches.

 

If I recall, the only reason the hatch was discontinued on the Focus in the first place was to minimize costs of the C170 refresh. They determined a coupe would be cheaper than a hatch, so they did that. It wasn't for lack of demand. The Focus hatch always sold well. So your comparison is irrelevant.

[MKII]

So the projected low take rate of hatch back sales would not have been a factor in Ford's decision to drop the hatch variant Focus for MY2008?

Wardsauto.com reported the national (USA) overall hatchback take rate of just 8.3 percent in the 2009 model year.

 

Remember when Ford showed the Verve(Fiesta) concept, sedan in USA show & hatch in Euro show, there was some discussion at that

time regarding Ford N.A. saying the surveys told them Americans don't want hatch back cars. But thank goodness for Ford marketing chief,Jim Farley insisted that the original three door hatch concept from the Frankfurt show be displayed as well.

Even though at that time Ford said the hatchback was too European for American tastes, coming to the conclusion after collecting focus group data from both coasts.

 

Not that these historical bits of stuff proves today that Fords conclusions were proven wrong ,or to infer that Ford is wrong with their wagon focus group conclusions.

But I think this is what others are pointing to as useful past data which could be viewed as being a possibility that Fords decision to not try the wagon variant in North America

to be questioned.

 

That said, IMO Ford will not offer a Fusion wagon or Focus wagon as both have same segment CUV's or utilities which I assume garner much higher profit margins. I don't think Ford wants to mess with their at the moment very balanced sales between car, utilities and trucks.

Edited October 17, 2012 by MKII

[FordBuyer]

So the projected low take rate of hatch back sales would not have been a factor in Ford's decision to drop the hatch variant Focus for MY2008?

Wardsauto.com reported the national (USA) overall hatchback take rate of just 8.3 percent in the 2009 model year.

 

Remember when Ford showed the Verve(Fiesta) concept, sedan in USA show & hatch in Euro show, there was some discussion at that

time regarding Ford N.A. saying the surveys told them Americans don't want hatch back cars. But thank goodness for Ford marketing chief,Jim Farley insisted that the original three door hatch concept from the Frankfurt show be displayed as well.

Even though at that time Ford said the hatchback was too European for American tastes, coming to the conclusion after collecting focus group data from both coasts.

 

Not that these historical bits of stuff proves today that Fords conclusions were proven wrong ,or to infer that Ford is wrong with their wagon focus group conclusions.

But I think this is what others are pointing to as useful past data which could be viewed as being a possibility that Fords decision to not try the wagon variant in North America

to be questioned.

 

That said, IMO Ford will not offer a Fusion wagon or Focus wagon as both have same segment CUV's or utilities which I assume garner much higher profit margins. I don't think Ford wants to mess with their at the moment very balanced sales between car, utilities and trucks.

 

I tend to agree. Even if focus groups said wagon model would be successful in all probability and maybe it already has, I suspect Ford is being coy because it is concerned that a Fusion/Focus wagon would pull sales away from Escape and some other utilities that do have higher profit margin. However, I would argue that a Fusion/Focus wagon would have a very high conquest rate since it would have no domestic competition making up for any lost Escape sales. And yep, Nick has a very selective memory of why Focus hatch ended before, and how Farley had to fight for Fiesta hatch since Ford initially had no intentions of bringing it over here. I do remember Ford pulling plug on Focus hatch along with wagon because according to them its sales rate fell too low. I think it was more like we want to reduce costs on redesigned Focus, so no hatch and wagon at this time. So they did coupe only and of course that didn't go well. Used Focus wagons are gone same day they appear on any used car lot.

[NickF1011]

And yep, Nick has a very selective memory

 

I'm selectrive? Tell us all then how well the Accord, Camry, and Taurus wagons sold compared to their sedan counterparts. There's a very valid reason none of them exist anymore.

 

And I think Farley's "fight" for bringing the hatch Fiesta here is largely exaggerated. How many of the other B-cars on the market when the Fiesta was launched were hatchbacks? Pretty much uhh...all of them? Launching the Fiesta and Focus with hatch variants was following the market, not defying it. No brainer decision as far as I'm concerned.

 

However, I would argue that a Fusion/Focus wagon would have a very high conquest rate

 

Conquest rate from what exactly? Higher profit vehicles? Makes a lot of sense to do, huh? Ford would have much better luck trying to steal a Toyota Highlander buy with an Edge or Explorer than they would with a Fusion wagon.

Edited October 17, 2012 by NickF1011

[FordBuyer]

You're talking about things that never existed before. The wagon has been sold in the U.S. in many forms by many mfrs including Ford with the Escort and Taurus wagons. Most recently Dodge had a Magnum wagon. Some mfrs still make wagons in the U.S. They don't sell and there is no evidence that that market has changed. Zero. Nada.

 

Unless you can point to something that's changed the market then you can't argue with past sales success or lack thereof.

 

There has been a big change.....MANY CUSTOMERS NOW STATE THAT FUEL MILEAGE IS NUMBER ONE CONCERN WHEN BUYING. Granted station wagon segment is a minimal market, but if Ford was to enter with great looking Fusion wagon, they would have segment to itself for years domestically anyway, and good reason to believe it would be growth segment (even though minimal) as new CAFE rules get closer, and fuel prices go higher every summer. Ford has always been known as the wagon king, and perfect company to be first to stick toe in and see how the water is. It could only add to Fusion sales figures as I bet many would be conquest sales plus those Ford buyers who loved their Escort, Focus, and Taurus/Sable wagons and really miss them.

[FordBuyer]

I'm selectrive? Tell us all then how well the Accord, Camry, and Taurus wagons sold compared to their sedan counterparts. There's a very valid reason none of them exist anymore.

 

And I think Farley's "fight" for bringing the hatch Fiesta here is largely exaggerated. How many of the other B-cars on the market when the Fiesta was launched were hatchbacks? Pretty much uhh...all of them? Launching the Fiesta and Focus with hatch variants was following the market, not defying it. No brainer decision as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

Conquest rate from what exactly? Higher profit vehicles? Makes a lot of sense to do, huh? Ford would have much better luck trying to steal a Toyota Highlander buy with an Edge or Explorer than they would with a Fusion wagon.

 

You gotta quit thinking as an auto executive because you are only an armchair one living a fantasy. Start thinking like a customer, because that is all you are. Most auto executives are cautious and very conservative. So afraid to make a mistake that they rarely make a decision or green light projects. Kind of like movie producers that keep doing one sequel after another instead of breaking new ground. They milk it till it's dry and then wonder why they tanked. Ford lived with the SUV too long and watched Explorer sales sink to about nothing before doing a CUV. Now I suppose they are going to live and die with 5 and 7 passenger CUV's and ignore the fuel miser crowd that wants something more fuel efficient than Edge/Explorer/Escape and still has lift gate and cargo room of Explorer. The hatches are nice start and have been successful which leads one to believe Focus/Fusion wagons could carve out decent numbers, and be strong contenders when and if CUV segment starts to slow down. There really customers out there like me that would be mighty tempted with a Fusion/Focus wagon. The C Max is a nice start, but comes only in hybrid form, and there is a market, no matter how small, for a ICE Fusion wagon. Beats living on CUV's only and Flex wagon that is not particularly fuel efficient. Still can't figure out why Ford didn't offer 2.0EB in Flex with last MCE.

[akirby]

This is all based on your theory that a Fusion wagon would get far better fuel economy and people would buy them for that reason and that's hogwash. People prefer CUV styling over wagon styling - it's that simple.

 

There is a big difference between taking a chance on something new and throwing money down a hole trying the same thing that others have tried and failed at.

 

The Flex was different yet you hate it and say it wasn't successful. A wagon would be WAY worse.