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June 2012 Sales Results


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Two, the market was "sunk" because of govermment meddling in the finance sector that dates back to the 1990s. Blaming this collapse on the free market run amok is laughable at best.

 

Please. Can you say Lehman Brothers? Knew you could. Now, let's say "derivative trading". Go on, you can do it, I know you can. :hysterical:

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Wrong on both counts. One, as others have noted, GM WAS offered a line of credit similar to the one Ford negotiated, but GM management refused. Yes, GM couldn't get credit in 2008, but that is because no sane lender would have extended it credit even without the collapse of the financial sector. GM needed to file for bankruptcy around 2005. It was evident by then that GM was in deep trouble.

 

Two, the market was "sunk" because of govermment meddling in the finance sector that dates back to the 1990s. Blaming this collapse on the free market run amok is laughable at best.

Gas prices spiked in 2007 killing the lifestyle truck and SUV market and seriously hurting

the income streams of Ford GM and Chrysler before banks started to freeze lending.

A cash strapped GM then started to look at what options were open to it,

their first move in late 2007 was to with hold payments to suppliers...

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I don't like the "Business cause this..."/"Government caused this..." debate.

 

It masks the underlying problem, that people in both realms were in a situation where moral hazard was more or less combined with unintended consequences.

 

 

ABSes, CDSes, and the CRA are all useful tools.

 

The first enables banks to lend more readily, the second provides vital risk management, and the third advances an important policy goal (in short: home ownership is good for community stability).

 

The problem is that the decision makers in all three areas (two private sector, one public) were largely shielded from the negative consequences of bad loans (1,3), or bad contract underwriting (2). Also, none of these tools were developed with the notion that they would be part of a self-perpetuating bubble-inflating system.

 

Finally, it is highly specious to talk about the 'loss of wealth' that occurred during the crash, while simultaneously decrying the mechanisms that enabled this wealth creation. If the mechanisms were bad, then the wealth created by them is fruit of the poison tree. And in a world where CDSes, ABSes and the CRA didn't exist, much of that wealth wouldn't have been created either.

 

Bottom line, IMO, is that these are not 'government' problems or 'private sector' problems, they're people problems.

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Toyota never had the excess capacity issues Ford had in the first place so their need to idle or close anything down didn't exist.

 

they didn't?

 

How about the San Antonio Texas truck plant, designed to build 300,000 tundra's per year or the new plant in Mexico plant for the Tacoma, even the Indiana plant where the sienna 4 runner and sequoia were.

 

 

by definition in a down turn everyone is over capacity. Toyota and Honda took step to reduce production but they did not reduce their build capacity they by closing factories with the exception of NUMMI.

 

They had the money to ride out the Storm without affecting their long-term capacity once the economy improved.

 

Ford, at present, is the only manufacturer without a conventional automatic in its compact car. Because customers are demanding midsize type refinement from compact cars, Ford will offer a conventional automatic either in place of or in tandem with the DCT within the life cycle of the C2 platform. You can make book on that.

 

OK Dick

 

21,000 focus sold in June, sales are up 35% this year.

 

outsold every other compact except the Civic and Corolla.

 

ARe you going to say that the only reason the focus isn't in first place is because of the DCT?

 

have you even driven one?

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Wrong on both counts. One, as others have noted, GM WAS offered a line of credit similar to the one Ford negotiated, but GM management refused. Yes, GM couldn't get credit in 2008, but that is because no sane lender would have extended it credit even without the collapse of the financial sector. GM needed to file for bankruptcy around 2005. It was evident by then that GM was in deep trouble.

 

Two, the market was "sunk" because of government meddling in the finance sector that dates back to the 1990s. Blaming this collapse on the free market run amok is laughable at best.

 

 

 

yes the government liberated the the free market and it crashed in 2008.

 

pretty soon you will say we should have fewer cops because people always do the right thing.

 

Can you explain exactly what the government did in the 1990s?

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I don't like the "Business cause this..."/"Government caused this..." debate.

 

It masks the underlying problem, that people in both realms were in a situation where moral hazard was more or less combined with unintended consequences.

 

 

ABSes, CDSes, and the CRA are all useful tools.

 

The first enables banks to lend more readily, the second provides vital risk management, and the third advances an important policy goal (in short: home ownership is good for community stability).

 

The problem is that the decision makers in all three areas (two private sector, one public) were largely shielded from the negative consequences of bad loans (1,3), or bad contract underwriting (2). Also, none of these tools were developed with the notion that they would be part of a self-perpetuating bubble-inflating system.

 

Finally, it is highly specious to talk about the 'loss of wealth' that occurred during the crash, while simultaneously decrying the mechanisms that enabled this wealth creation. If the mechanisms were bad, then the wealth created by them is fruit of the poison tree. And in a world where CDSes, ABSes and the CRA didn't exist, much of that wealth wouldn't have been created either.

 

Bottom line, IMO, is that these are not 'government' problems or 'private sector' problems, they're people problems.

 

well said!!!

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OK Dick

 

21,000 focus sold in June, sales are up 35% this year.

 

outsold every other compact except the Civic and Corolla.

 

ARe you going to say that the only reason the focus isn't in first place is because of the DCT?

 

have you even driven one?

 

Is the lack of a true auto still hurting those good Focus sales?

 

or turned around,

 

Would adding a true auto push those Focus sales even higher?

 

Would adding an auto to the Escape range push sales even higher?

Edited by jpd80
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they didn't?

 

How about the San Antonio Texas truck plant, designed to build 300,000 tundra's per year or the new plant in Mexico plant for the Tacoma, even the Indiana plant where the sienna 4 runner and sequoia were.

 

 

by definition in a down turn everyone is over capacity. Toyota and Honda took step to reduce production but they did not reduce their build capacity they by closing factories with the exception of NUMMI.

 

They had the money to ride out the Storm without affecting their long-term capacity once the economy improved.

 

 

NUMMI is the only one of those plants that has actually left Toyota's hands since the downturn, and that has as much to do with GM ending its JV as it does with the economic slowdown. Compare that to the permanent closings of Norfolk, Atlanta, Edison, Wixom, Twin Cities, St. Thomas, and others for Ford. No. Toyota did not have the same over capacity problem as Ford. Ford had to close those factories. It wasn't a matter of "weathering the storm" -- the volume that filled those plants was never coming back.

Edited by NickF1011
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The reason Focus isn't in first place is variable, but I would argue that it's simply a less practical car than most in this segment with less interior room, a dodgy transmission, and a firm sporting ride. And more importantly, the nicely equipped SE models (bread and butter) are overpriced for the segment and do not offer enough visual appeal. I say this after loosing my sister to a Hyundai Sonata (and nearly a Chevy Cruze) because the Focus SE looked like rubbish and cost more. And what's worse, the Focus has a poor quality reputation and has been dumped on fleets in big numbers.

 

For me the Focus is one big disappointment mostly because they are so many unhappy customers and it has played a key-roll in wiping out Ford's quality reputation. I'm growing convinced Ford is incapable of delivering consistent quality launches. I'm sure the Focus will improve as they iterate, but other companies don't struggle so badly at launch like Ford.

Edited by BORG
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The reason Focus isn't in first place is variable, but I would argue that it's simply a less practical car than most in this segment with less interior room, a dodgy transmission, and a firm sporting ride. And more importantly, the nicely equipped SE models (bread and butter) are overpriced for the segment and do not offer enough visual appeal. I say this after loosing my sister to a Hyundai Sonata (and nearly a Chevy Cruze) because the Focus SE looked like rubbish and cost more. And what's worse, the Focus has a poor quality reputation and has been dumped on fleets in big numbers.

 

For me the Focus is one big disappointment mostly because they are so many unhappy customers and it has played a key-roll in wiping out Ford's quality reputation. I'm growing convinced Ford is incapable of delivering consistent quality launches. I'm sure the Focus will improve as they iterate, but other companies don't struggle so badly at launch like Ford.

 

eeyore.jpg

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For me the Focus is one big disappointment mostly because they are so many unhappy customers and it has played a key-roll in wiping out Ford's quality reputation. I'm growing convinced Ford is incapable of delivering consistent quality launches. I'm sure the Focus will improve as they iterate, but other companies don't struggle so badly at launch like Ford.

Seems like you're dwelling on issues that the market has now mostly forgotten, over 21,000 sales last month for Focus

which is already up 35% in sales compared to this time last year..

Edited by jpd80
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the Focus SE looked like rubbish

 

It seems the market place disagrees with you, as sales levels certainly aren't "rubbish"-grade, and Ford isn't discounting it any more than the competition, AFAIK.

 

So, by any objective measure, that statement is incorrect.

 

Sorry you're bummed-out. :)

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a firm sporting ride...........And more importantly, the nicely equipped SE models (bread and butter) are overpriced for the segment and do not offer enough visual appeal. I say this after loosing my sister to a Hyundai Sonata (and nearly a Chevy Cruze) because the Focus SE looked like rubbish and cost more. And what's worse, the Focus has a poor quality reputation and has been dumped on fleets in big numbers.

 

 

Borg, Borg, Borg, you come up with such incendiary comments from time to time I can't help but think you do it to raise attention for yourself.

 

As you should remember, virtually every review praised the ride and handling......especially compared to the spaghetti suspension on the Sonata. The flame surface styling on the Sonata is already old. The more Focuses I see the better they look. The Sonata looks like wet spaghetti, no structure....just a lot of senseless limp curves. Focus is taught and purposeful with some aggression thrown in.

 

Focus did take a hit for MFT (an option for top tier models btw, you can still get SYNC in the medium series) but that's been updated and corrected. I doubt MFT is a problem anymore, they didn't even mention it in the last Taurus review. Also for the DCT, which I've heard has also cleared up. I'm not totally sold on that though.....because I prefer manuals anyway.

 

Maybe you'll remember the C&D best small car being a Fusion with the Sport Package and a manual transmission. NOT a Sonata. You failed. Not the Focus. Just because your sister bought one doesn't make her decision right for everyone else. Did she want a flaccid suspension, overwrought styling, steering wandering, trumped up MPGs and a limited option list? Not only is it an import, but Hyundai's president is a criminal, freed from prison for the country's good. (BTW this really pi$$es me off......if it were an American company it would be headline news and boycotts, seems as if Hyundai gets a pass on their politics/cars).

 

The Fleet dump? Really? Are you quoting any figures on that? The article it can from was debunked as being impossible.

Edited by timmm55
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Acadia doesn't bother me. I think it's one of the more handsome large CUVs out there and somewhat conservative in it's appearance in comparison to some of the other offerings out there.

 

You want cartoon?

 

Bleech!

 

nissan-armada-04.jpg

Personally the Armada is a good looking rig, especially for its age and lack of updates, with plenty of power, but a little thirsty. Compared to large CUV's, which this is more your traditional SUV, being of Titan architecture, it may have the best style. Actually see one everyday (neighbor has one) and it actually drives quite well and is nice inside and out.

 

Makes sense since both the Fiesta and Focus are Ford's most affordable vehicles and buyers are generally buying them for that reason alone. The new Escape is a more premium vehicle and buyers are expecting more refinement. Thus no DCT. No funny sounds at start off as DCT declutches and then engages. Those driving Fiesta or Focus are also more likely to have experience with manual at some previous time in their lives. Both Fiesta and Focus also available with manual while Escape and many other Ford vehicles are auto only.

:hysterical2: The Escape, even the new 2013 model, is not a premium vehicle. If you consider the Escape premium, then you must also consider the Focus premium. Cause each come in stripped models, as well as your Titanium or Platinum models with bells and whistles.

 

And what evidence supports your case that Escape owners are more likely auto owners and Fiesta/Focus owners are former manual owners? I see absolutely no basis for those comments.

 

And I did see my first 2013 Escape on the road this past weekend. Didn't get to check out the interior, but on the exterior it's "Meh". Front clip from the front view is nice and aggressive. The rear, well leaves a lot too be desired, but not much you can do with that design. And the profile, just as I thought from the pics posted here, is plain ugly IMO. Looks like a CRV/Rav-4 cabin connected to a Focus like front end. The entire area prior to the windshield/doors, is too low, making it look like a car connected to a CUV.

Edited by V8-X
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Personally the Armada is a good looking rig, especially for its age and lack of updates,

 

It didn't look good when it was launched either, so I don't see what its age has to do with it. The GM and Ford fullsizers are much more attractive, albeit more conservative. Those fenders on the Armada are just...awful. Godly awful.

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Saw my first Escape on the highway today on the way to work. I'll be honest, on first look, I was not too crazy about it. Maybe because it was "different" looking....not sure. It seemed so "hunched up" in the back. I'm sure it will grow on me once they start multiplying like rabbits.

 

I will give Ford some credit though, it stands out.

 

EDIT: Before I get flamed, I did not think it was ugly by any means. Just that it would not appeal to me on first glance. Then again, I said that about a number of cars I've subsequently bought.

Edited by Intrepidatious
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That Armada looks like someone collected parts from different cars and trucks in a junkyard and welded it together.

 

Getting back to the sales... As far as Ford not being up as much as the competition... Could it be because they had their surge when everyone else is floundering, and now they are getting back to where they were before? If this is so, then Ford is still ahead.

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Getting back to the sales... As far as Ford not being up as much as the competition... Could it be because they had their surge when everyone else is floundering, and now they are getting back to where they were before? If this is so, then Ford is still ahead.

 

For the most part. As I mentioned in another post, Ford is one of the few large brands that has had relatively steady sales performance over the past year or so. A lot of other big players had some pretty significant disruptions to overcome which are skewing their percentages higher at the moment.

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NUMMI is the only one of those plants that has actually left Toyota's hands since the downturn, and that has as much to do with GM ending its JV as it does with the economic slowdown. Compare that to the permanent closings of Norfolk, Atlanta, Edison, Wixom, Twin Cities, St. Thomas, and others for Ford. No. Toyota did not have the same over capacity problem as Ford. Ford had to close those factories. It wasn't a matter of "weathering the storm" -- the volume that filled those plants was never coming back.

 

 

 

what happens after the the escape goes to 3 shift and After AAI goes to 3 shifts? How will ford keep up with demand and grow market share, does for care about market share anymore?

 

the Issue is training and hiring new people takes time and has negative effect on quality, pushing your plants with mandatory 6 day per week and optional Sundays sounds good on paper but man and machine can only be pushed so hard without effecting quality.

 

Quality has been affected by the loss of capasity over the last few years, we laugh about ford paying worker to idle at their plants during slow times but this is what the Japanese did during the downturn. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122384818385826909.html

 

Princeton, Ind. -- For years, Detroit's Big Three car makers have paid their workers even when they aren't needed on the assembly line. This year, as the industry's downturn intensifies, Toyota Motor Corp. TM +0.03% finds itself doing the same thing.

Instead of sending the workers home, as the Detroit makers often do, Toyota is keeping them at the plants, though. The employees spend their days in training sessions designed to sharpen their job skills and find better ways to assemble vehicles.

 

while ford was turning their swords into plowshares Toyota and Honda were sharpening their swords.

 

I understand whys and the hows of Ford's transformation but it has come at the cost of market share and quality.

 

This is the lay of the land for Cars in 2013

 

MAP 3 crew

AAI 2 shifts

CAP 3 crew

OAC 2 shifts

HAP 3 crew

LAP 3 crew

Cauliutan 2 shifts

 

Sales per year

C-max 60,000

Foucs 260,000

Fusion 300,000

taurus 90,000

explorer 160000

edge 130000

Escape 280,000

MKT 7000

MKX 30,000

Fiesta 70000

MKS 20,000

MKZ 45,000

mustang 80,000

Flex 45,000

 

HAP,LAP and MAP will be at capacity by next year.

 

AAI when it come back online it will ease capacity constraints, but if ford or Lincoln wants to add more product especially C2 vehicle there could be issues unless another C2 plant is found.

 

I would have liked to see ford be more aggressive in updating one more C/CD plant to ease the transition to newer models.

 

long term ford will be fine, but this year and the next will see alot of money being left on the table because of capasity issues.

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