NickF1011 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I saw three Kugas in the last two days You live in Europe? I mean really. You can stop calling it Kuga now out of resentment that they got rid of the brick. It is the 2013 Escape. And like it or not, it appears to be an initial success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) And like it or not, it appears to be an initial success. The brick outsold the jellymould last month. :P No, I'm not seriously making that argument. Edited July 5, 2012 by sullynd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 No, I'm not seriously making that argument. I would assume you know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I would assume you know better. Yeah, right now it's supply constrained. Once they start piling up on lots, then I'll make that argument. :P 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yeah, right now it's supply constrained. Once they start piling up on lots, then I'll make that argument. :P Mmm hmmm. Can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Yeah, right now it's supply constrained. Once they start piling up on lots, then I'll make that argument. :P They sold 4 new ones for every 6 old ones and that's with a supply constraint (4.5 days) and incentives on the old one. You need to find another argument - that one just doesn't hold water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) The problem is that it was pitched as an automatic but does not behave like an automatic. My SWAG speculation is that this is pretty much how FoE engineers pitched this solution to Ford's product development Brahmins, and that the PD execs bought the argument without testing it. Possibly they were short on time, who knows? At any rate, FoE developed and sold Ford management on a solution that was not well matched to NA buyers, and one hopes that Ford PD has learned from this and will not be repeating the error. wait! the transmisison is made by Getrag and used in other products from other makes. And you say it is a FoE problem? who decided to put a CVT in the 500? FoE? whose fault was MFT? FoE? right? why is the focus an awesome car, surely Ford NA is responsible for it's success and FoE had nothing to do with it. right? how come the Mondeo was deemed by you as unsatisfactory for North America, yet you like the fusion which is a mildly reskinned version of the same Mondeo that you disliked. One day you will understand that ford is no longer FoE or FNA but simply ford, and the bad decisions and the good decisions are both from the same company. the DCT is lighter, cheaper and more economical than the 6F35. this is why it was chosen. Edited July 5, 2012 by Biker16 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) who decided to put a CVT in the 500? FoE? who fault was MFT? FoE? right? Briefly: CVT was similar to DCT: Product was greenlighted without sufficient customer research (notably, the Escape has a conventional automatic). Ford changed management structure post CVT when Fields came in from Europe. That change in structure led to 5 consecutive years of market share gains, driven chiefly by desirable product built on borrowed/obsolete platforms. MFT was good customer research paired with flawed execution. Contrast with Sync which was good customer research paired with fairly solid execution. Edited July 5, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 wait! the transmisison is made by Getrag and used in other products from other makes. And you say it is a FoE problem? who decided to put a CVT in the 500? FoE? whose fault was MFT? FoE? right? why is the focus an awesome car, surely Ford NA is responsible for it's success and FoE had nothing to do with it. right? how come the Mondeo was deemed by you as unsatisfactory for North America, yet you like the fusion which is a mildly reskinned version of the same Mondeo that you disliked. One day you will understand that ford is no longer FoE or FNA but simply ford, and the bad decisions and the good decisions are both from the same company. the DCT is lighter, cheaper and more economical than the 6F35. this is why it was chosen. Makes sense since both the Fiesta and Focus are Ford's most affordable vehicles and buyers are generally buying them for that reason alone. The new Escape is a more premium vehicle and buyers are expecting more refinement. Thus no DCT. No funny sounds at start off as DCT declutches and then engages. Those driving Fiesta or Focus are also more likely to have experience with manual at some previous time in their lives. Both Fiesta and Focus also available with manual while Escape and many other Ford vehicles are auto only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 One day you will understand that ford is no longer FoE or FNA but simply ford, and the bad decisions and the good decisions are both from the same company. :yup: General Motors executives probably wish it could achieve that kind of organizational integration between Opel and GM's other business units both within and outside Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Contrast with Sync which was good customer research paired with fairly solid execution. Huh? Sync (the non-MFT) was excellent. People loved it (often given as a reason to buy a Ford) and it works great. It was IMHO a motive for Ford to make the loooong jump to MFT. Thankfully you can still get Sync w/o MFT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Huh? Sync (the non-MFT) was excellent. Isn't that essentially what he said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Software upgrades seemed to have settled down Powershift problems, interesting that 1.6 EB in Fusion uses an Auto trans maybe this opens the door to a genuine auto trans option for those buyers who still prefer it over the powershift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Sync has its share of glitches... Granted, a fair number of those glitches are due to incorrect/imperfect/incompatible implementations of the BT protocol. Sync is by no means as reliable as the rest of the vehicle's entertainment system, but it is a solid piece of tech, and unquestionably better than the BeSquare version of MFT. Edited July 5, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 Oh, I think the bail outs are now well and truly off the radar, GM and Chrysler are back to making as many vehicles as possible and pushing excess stock with good incentives and lease plans Malibu 0$ down, $139/mth for 24 months - that's very attractive but will hurt resale values... Not for the countless investors that were robbed of their retirement only to have their shares delivered to the UAW. Both GM and Chrysler have done nothing to reimburse them. These people deserve their security... Let alone vengeance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) Not for the countless investors that were robbed of their retirement only to have their shares delivered to the UAW. Both GM and Chrysler have done nothing to reimburse them. These people deserve their security... Let alone vengeance. Sure, I've said my part on investors and the government being made whole but obviously,the market has moved on and GM is now making and selling plenty of product. If there was any severe, continued back lash, it would be manifest in reduced sales. My interest is more on Ford being a mere 45,000 units a month behind GM, GM sales might be surging but so too are Ford's and in the right directions too.. Edited July 5, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Any idea how sales of the Focus Electric are going? Anyone seen a break-down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Briefly: CVT was similar to DCT: Product was greenlighted without sufficient customer research (notably, the Escape has a conventional automatic). I call bullshit where is your source? also where is your source for this: "At any rate, FoE developed and sold Ford management on a solution that was not well matched to NA buyers, and one hopes that Ford PD has learned from this and will not be repeating the error." wouldn't it be more accurate to say that getrag sold ford on this solution not FOE? the escape and fusion don't use a DCT because the Dry clutch DCT cannot handle the torque from the 2.5L or the EB1.6. PERIOD! You could use the wet clutch DCT in the Mondeo, but it is heavier, more expensive and less economical than the Dry clutch, and close to the 6F35 in these areas. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Any idea how sales of the Focus Electric are going? Anyone seen a break-down? I can tell you that they've sold 16 Electric Focus as of June 8th. Don't expect many sales until much later on in the year. The Electric Focus, for now, is only going to a handful of dealers in a handful of states. Mulally says he'll be satisfied with 5,000 sales in 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Not for the countless investors that were robbed of their retirement only to have their shares delivered to the UAW. Both GM and Chrysler have done nothing to reimburse them. These people deserve their security... Let alone vengeance. how about that unregulated derivative market that the mega banks created? I am sure pensioners lost trillions of dollars in that debacle where is the vengeance for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) I call bullshit where is your source? also where is your source for this: "At any rate, FoE developed and sold Ford management on a solution that was not well matched to NA buyers, and one hopes that Ford PD has learned from this and will not be repeating the error." wouldn't it be more accurate to say that getrag sold ford on this solution not FOE? the escape and fusion don't use a DCT because the Dry clutch DCT cannot handle the torque from the 2.5L or the EB1.6. PERIOD! You could use the wet clutch DCT in the Mondeo, but it is heavier, more expensive and less economical than the Dry clutch, and close to the 6F35 in these areas. Briefly: - DCT, like CVT, is getting negative reviews from customers even when working properly or within tolerances (cf BlackHorse) - DCT is not being used on identical engines in newer vehicles in the Ford lineup, which suggests that Ford is either not pleased with it 1) because customers don't like it or 2) because it doesn't deliver promised fuel economy improvements. - FNA managers, having already been burned by the BW CVT fiasco, to the tune of a few hundred million, would almost certainly not have gone along with a dog-and-pony show from a supplier for a novel transmission. Europe based engineers, however, who had charge of the C2 program appear to have bought into the notion. Try not to be cranky about it. The important thing is that Ford learned from their mistakes. Edited July 6, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Briefly: The important thing is that Ford learned from their mistakes. Is Ford ditching DCT? I've been advocating that since the first bad review. How long did the CVT last? Others are still using it, Nissan I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 how about that unregulated derivative market that the mega banks created? I am sure pensioners lost trillions of dollars in that debacle where is the vengeance for them? A completely unrelated reference... But I'm glad you brought it up. By your logic, the derivative market screwed investors because the government had no control. GM and Chrysler investors got screwed because the government took control. Either way, it's apples and oranges. I appreciate your ignorance nonetheless. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ford Motor Company Transmission and Driveline Engineering Livonia, MI DPS6: TDE Takes Global Lead by Piero Aversa, EP Transmission http://www.wordsmithllc.org/uploads/Ford_Quarterly_Newsletters.pdf If RJ is correct in saying FoE controlled the decision to use the dry clutch Powershift in the Focus, it is interesting that Ford Europe did not see this transmission in the Fiesta (yet) which was the 1st Ford vehicle with this dry clutch application. Regarding the dry clutch in the new Focus it became available in the Euro spec 1.6L Focus late 2011, almost a year later then the North American Focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Is Ford ditching DCT? I've been advocating that since the first bad review. How long did the CVT last? Others are still using it, Nissan I think. Will the CVT be in the C-Max? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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