RIGHT TO WORK STATE

[jpd2]

The question was asked if Kentucky had this , how many would really be Union? The example I will give was UAW-Ford Local 882 when they had 2400 at Atlanta Assembly and almost 400 at Atlanta Parts Distribution Center. Total Non-Union people was a steady 5.

[Furious1Auto]

The question was asked if Kentucky had this , how many would really be Union? The example I will give was UAW-Ford Local 882 when they had 2400 at Atlanta Assembly and almost 400 at Atlanta Parts Distribution Center. Total Non-Union people was a steady 5.

 

You May be citing facts, however the relationship between the international and membership has changed allot over the coarse of the last few years. Would that number be the same today?

Edited January 10, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[Fatso]

Both major political parties are corrupt.Everybody likes rich friends.We know these things.I started this topic after listening to Governor Snyder-R on WJR 760 am.He said that while the time is not right to push for Right to Work Legislation in Michigan,he would sign a Right to Work Bill into law today if one was placed on his desk.I cant make a person change their point of view and it soon reaches a point where is counter-productive to argue.Democrats are not perfect but they side with the 'little guy' more than the The Republican Party who`s solution to anything seems to be this:If working-class people would be willing to work for less money and if working-class people who have taxes taken out of their paychecks would be willing to pay all the taxes, then maybe you would all have jobs and then maybe you could be 'Singing on a Star'.I have known hard working,honest,law-abiding,middle-class people who worked in steel mills for decades only to end up screwed out of the pensions they were promised by the company.Who cares,right?Its only a working-class person`s life.There are more of them waiting down at the bus stop.Its not like it`s happening to Lady GaGa or Chaz Bono.Think it cant happen to you?WRONGFORMICHIGAN.ORG.Is it any wonder why the UAW is on the decline?Your union needs political clout!Keep voting Republicans in office and start singing, 'I own my soul to the company store'.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Fatso

[Furious1Auto]

Yet the political topic remains.

[kpc655]

The difference is the UAW is on your side.Think the union does not do enough for you and you dont like em now? Just wait until if,,,,,if Michigan becomes surrounded by Right to Work States or worse yet becomes one itself.Then what can the union do?Where is the leverage required to increase wages and working conditions?Do you think semi-skilled, manual labor work pays up to $30 an hour all around the globe?Republicans will tell you this is bad business and yet Mullaly making hundreds of millions is as it should be and you can do it too!Only it helps a lot if your grandfather was Henry Ford and I am not be-grudgeing a persons family status and I am not saying that Mullaly does not deserve a significantly higher salary than me.I just dont want to see a return to Feudalism.The Republicans want to bust the unions in the interest of their wealthy friends.Imagine ex-Governor John Engler-R on steroids!!!

 

Agree with your point, but therein lies the problem. the automakers (any company) is obligated, via the competitive environment we live in, to seek lower costs. if the only reason pay is so high is that there is an effective monopoly on the work force, then whatever company can avoid the monopoly will win. The uaw may have helped build the middle class long ago but its cost basis must be sustainable and competitive. That's all that right to work does, ensure competition in the labor work force. By attempting to dictate pay AND the size of the workforce, they've put themselves in a tough spot. uaw would be better of picking 1.

 

The comparison to mullaly is also a good comparison. he earned his job and survives not because he is part of a union but because Ford thinks he's worth it. the general market, investors etc seems to agree. If ford found someone else who could do the same job as mullaly for less, they'd hire him tomorrow.

 

Just my .02

[trailfndr]

That's all that right to work does, ensure competition in the labor work force.

 

Just my .02

 

Unfortunly, you are incorrect. RTW Does NOT insure competition, it only serves to destroy a union due to the unfairness of forcing that union to protect, negotiate for, and give all rights of membership (with the exception of voting) to those unwilling to help pay for that privledge. I know I do not want my dues going to protect some damned fool that thinks he is too good to belong to a union, when he gets fired. My Dues should not help fight to get his job back unless he is also a dues paying member.

 

A UNION is a group of like minded employees, with a common goal. If you don't pay dues, you should not have ANY of the rights that a paid member does. Unfortunatly, Federal Law has held that the union must still protect the non-paying person in a RTW State.

[Furious1Auto]

Unfortunly, you are incorrect. RTW Does NOT insure competition, it only serves to destroy a union due to the unfairness of forcing that union to protect, negotiate for, and give all rights of membership (with the exception of voting) to those unwilling to help pay for that privledge. I know I do not want my dues going to protect some damned fool that thinks he is too good to belong to a union, when he gets fired. My Dues should not help fight to get his job back unless he is also a dues paying member.

 

A UNION is a group of like minded employees, with a common goal. If you don't pay dues, you should not have ANY of the rights that a paid member does. Unfortunatly, Federal Law has held that the union must still protect the non-paying person in a RTW State.

 

To be honest if you do your job and keep your mouth shut you don't need a union other then to negotiate your wages. That's all local 5000 does for me. There are chairmen here, but they are suckasses, and couldn't battle their way out of a wet paper bag. I wouldn't want to pay for services I never use either. When I was on the line the only people I saw calling committee people were the trouble makers, who didn't come to work, and tried to weasel their way out of work when they did show up. The comitteman they were calling on weren't any help either cause they were fluffing for the management.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[Fatso]

I keep hearing Republican legislature members talking about making Michigan a Right to Work state on WJR radio.A few NFL players have come out against Right to Work in Indiana.It is hard for me to believe that any UAW member would be in favor of such a law.Dont want to support your union?Then you are gonna lose it.Then complain about the equality of sacrifice greivance to your mitty-man.I tell ya this Governor Snyder is on an agenda and its all business first.Sounds positively lovely until you analyze all the ways that business own the politicians,aka.bribe. and can take advantage of employees as well as customers.General Republican philosophy is that business can never have enough and labor always has too much.Foretold is forewarned.

[Fatso]

To be honest if you do your job and keep your mouth shut you don't need a union other then to negotiate your wages. That's all local 5000 does for me. There are chairmen here, but they are suckasses, and couldn't battle their way out of a wet paper bag. I wouldn't want to pay for services I never use either. When I was on the line the only people I saw calling committee people were the trouble makers, who didn't come to work, and tried to weasel their way out of work when they did show up. The comitteman they were calling on weren't any help either cause they were fluffing for the management.

Thats saying a mouthful, "other than to negotiate your wages" and also pension,benefits,working conditions,holidays,vacation.I understand that most Locals are clicks and most employees who are union members are not in the clicks, therefor they rarely get a break from all the myriad of rules and regulations which can be arbitrarily and capriciously enforced by managemnet at any time.You want no union?I have been there several times.You ever been a white male under 40?I dont like your attitude-----HIT THE DOOR and we are gonna deny you unemployment or at least try to.You ever been a minority?You probably aint getting hired by smaller companies only by larger companies which have government contracts.wrongformichigan.org.As if the going aint tough enough already.I gave up an 8 hour workday.I gave up voluntary weekends.I lost holidays,I will be required to work The MLK Holiday and I cannot convert the hours.There have been several times I have not been paid and it takes at least a month and a visit to the plant on my own time to correct the problem and at this point I am a victim of a crime,yet I have NO way to penalize the company.All this is because of the current political and economic atmosphere of NOW.Wanna see it get worse?Governor Snyder-R wants to!wrongformichigan.orgThe economy,society can play out in a different way,a more equitable way.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Fatso

[Furious1Auto]

I know the pitfalls, and I have been through the process. I have worked both union and non-union. The biggest dicernable difference is tha compensation. Every uoion gig I have worked paid better then the Non, however the same rules apply. I survive everywhere, some places more successfully then others. I have been trough transitions without unemployment.

 

Still in all, the only difference was the wages till I got to Ford. If things were still now like they were back then, then it would be something to fight to keep. However the local at OHAP didn't observe anything that was negotiated. Once the consolidation happened the word delta left the managements vocabulary, and they quit doing simple things like posting open jobs. Instead they placed there buddies in these jobs if they are "A friend of mine." Sorry the rest of the membership doesn't need to support a mini mafia. Paying due for years Without ever getting benefits from their contribution to the boys club. Seniority is not even observed the previous chairmen had his clan installed on lifts, guys with 04' seniority working in stock, and the Chairmen telling senior interested employees they weren't qualified to take these jobs cause they didn't have an in plant license. I listened to the grumblings at the local meetings over it, the membership was angry.

 

So if you call for help that doesn't show, and seniority doesn't account for sh-t, then other then negotiating wages what exactly is the union doing for the membership? Sheltering a handful of slick talking politicians from having to do a real job. How bout they have to work the line till they are called for union business. When I worked at National Gypsum all the committeeman were assigned base operations, and did their union duties only when they were called. Wasn't any worse then what you have now, cause the committeeman there also weren't worth a fuck. The Boilermakers I-Reps negotiated the wages. What's the difference. I didn't say that non-union is better, or that I prefer it. What I said was I would not pay dues to representatives that don't represent me if I was given a choice.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[steve morris]

The root of the problem in all aspects of this topic is GREED. Let's start with the politicians....it don't matter what party you lean towards, they're all puppets to lobbyists and big business. They sell their own country down the river in the form of faulty trade agreements all in the name of fat campaign contributions. You can't even get a bill that makes common sense passed because some idiot politicians won't vote in favor of it unless they get some bullshit added on. (which was asked for by a major campaign donor)

Until ALL FORMS of lobbying are outlawed, this country will never have politicians working to improve things for us OR our country !

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but before all these bullshit trade agreements passed, this country was huge in manufacturing. The issue of "right to work" wasn't nearly discussed as much as it is now because people were working and making a decent living. Now that we are in a global market, we have to slash wages in order to "compete" with these third world countries that the manufacturers are going to. Since the race to the bottom started, "Right to work" it's popping up all over in an attempt to Union bust. Without a Union fighting for fair wages and safe work practices, the company can make more in profits in the name of being "competitive".

 

The problem is that big business has done a excellent job of making the "working class" believe that union members are overpaid and spoiled when in fact we are the last group that still has what working class people SHOULD have. Fair wages and benefits compared to the companies earnings! If the company can afford to pay it's employees decent wages and benefits that they can raise a family on and still turn a great profit, why shouldn't they? Answer......GREED!

what people fail to understand is that without a union, these companies would pay their employees $8.00 - $10.00 per hour without benefits and the price of the cars would not fall one bit! PROOF: the price of the cars that are being produced overseas with cheap labor have not gone down one bit.

 

The problem with our unions is the politics that come into play. We have far too many reps that cater to the 10% of people that always seem to be in trouble or always have issues....all in the name of campaign contributions ( oops, I mean VOTES ) even when they know the employee is in the wrong. We have people running for these positions and getting elected for all the wrong reasons. These people keep getting re-elected because most people don't pay attention to how they do their job and then come election time, these Reps tell you everything you want to hear. Just like true politicians! They move up the chain and eventually get downtown NOT because of what they have done or what they know, but because of WHO they know!

The majority of people that rarely need representation see all this and then see union dues being taken from their checks each month. Most of us still know the importance of having a Union but more than you think question why they should be paying dues. The Union needs to fix the way it is perceived if they want to fight the "right to work" campaign and gain more members.

[Furious1Auto]

I agree on all points. If you want to turn the country around the trade agreements are the first correction. As far as the union, the entire bureaucracy is infected with lazy and selfish, but without it comes wrongful termination and under compensation. Wish I had a solution, but sadly no one ever agrees on what to do to fix things, so nothing changes.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[steve morris]

I agree on all points. If you want to turn the country around the trade agreements are the first correction. As far as the union, the entire bureaucracy is infected with lazy and selfish, but without it comes wrongful termination and under compensation. Wish I had a solution, but sadly no one ever agrees on what to do to fix thing, so nothing changes.

 

The people on the plant floors are the only way to change things. Not all Reps are lazy and selfish but until people start paying attention and asking questions, it will be the same old same old. People on the floor have to stop putting so much stock in a what a Rep says at campaign time and start asking the people that Rep takes care of. Let his/her track record speak for itself.

The other problem is that it is a thankless job and if done right, it takes a lot of time. There are some people on the floor that could be awesome Reps, but they don't want to get involved which sometimes leave us with electing the best of the worst. But until we weed out the people that aren't in there for the right reasons, things will NEVER get better.

[Furious1Auto]

What did Mark Feilds say while they were threatening to close a number of facilities before the first buyout offer? " Change or die! " The same applies to the UAW. Unless they make real strides to turn the ship around, and begin working for the membership, I will support right to work laws in the northern states. If you are paying for it and can't be part of the club, crash the party, and start packing up the favors.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[Die Wahrheit]

What did Mark Feilds say while they were threatening to close a number of facilities before the first buyout offer? " Change or die! " The same applies to the UAW. Unless they make real strides to turn the ship around, and begin working for the membership, I will support right to work laws in the northern states. If you are paying for it and can't be part of the club, crash the party, and start packing up the favors.

 

And I will push for cutting your pensions and benefits! You no longer work for Ford and therefore cannot vote on any contracts. Right to work for less is what it is. This is a blatent attempt to take rights away from workers and get rid of collective bargaining. Just like you UAW republicants who are voting against your best interest. You retirees want the current workforce to keep you in mind when you go out and vote republican. Thats what needs to be addressed. Change or die is right! Its time we let the retirees feel the pain a little bit. They sit on their perch and vote right wing(ANTI UAW) then they come back complaining that the UAW isn't doing enough.....Well I've got news for you, You can't have your cake and eat it to. I'm sure I won't have any problems getting many current workers to go along with this.

 

Right to work = NO RIGHTS AND NO COLLECTIVE BARGAINING!

[Armstrong]

The root of the problem in all aspects of this topic is GREED. Let's start with the politicians....it don't matter what party you lean towards, they're all puppets to lobbyists and big business. They sell their own country down the river in the form of faulty trade agreements all in the name of fat campaign contributions. You can't even get a bill that makes common sense passed because some idiot politicians won't vote in favor of it unless they get some bullshit added on. (which was asked for by a major campaign donor)

Until ALL FORMS of lobbying are outlawed, this country will never have politicians working to improve things for us OR our country !

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but before all these bullshit trade agreements passed, this country was huge in manufacturing. The issue of "right to work" wasn't nearly discussed as much as it is now because people were working and making a decent living. Now that we are in a global market, we have to slash wages in order to "compete" with these third world countries that the manufacturers are going to. Since the race to the bottom started, "Right to work" it's popping up all over in an attempt to Union bust. Without a Union fighting for fair wages and safe work practices, the company can make more in profits in the name of being "competitive".

 

The problem is that big business has done a excellent job of making the "working class" believe that union members are overpaid and spoiled when in fact we are the last group that still has what working class people SHOULD have. Fair wages and benefits compared to the companies earnings! If the company can afford to pay it's employees decent wages and benefits that they can raise a family on and still turn a great profit, why shouldn't they? Answer......GREED!

what people fail to understand is that without a union, these companies would pay their employees $8.00 - $10.00 per hour without benefits and the price of the cars would not fall one bit! PROOF: the price of the cars that are being produced overseas with cheap labor have not gone down one bit.

 

The problem with our unions is the politics that come into play. We have far too many reps that cater to the 10% of people that always seem to be in trouble or always have issues....all in the name of campaign contributions ( oops, I mean VOTES ) even when they know the employee is in the wrong. We have people running for these positions and getting elected for all the wrong reasons. These people keep getting re-elected because most people don't pay attention to how they do their job and then come election time, these Reps tell you everything you want to hear. Just like true politicians! They move up the chain and eventually get downtown NOT because of what they have done or what they know, but because of WHO they know!

The majority of people that rarely need representation see all this and then see union dues being taken from their checks each month. Most of us still know the importance of having a Union but more than you think question why they should be paying dues. The Union needs to fix the way it is perceived if they want to fight the "right to work" campaign and gain more members.

 

 

Good post Steve,

 

These Republicans know that the Middle Class wages and our way of life rest squrely on the Unions ability to ensure the Republican agenda is exposed and all of their anti-worker rhetoric.

 

Voting Republican will cause the Unions to fold and wages, benefits and job security once enjoyed by all 42,000 of us will be gone with no mechanism to return to an organized workforce

 

Vote Republican,,,,,,,,,, Good bye Unions

Edited January 15, 2012 by Armstrong

[Furious1Auto]

Just a little bit dramatic there Die. Let's be clear I voted demcrat in the last election, I was for social medicine (I had the longest standing thread on this topic on BOF), and for the renegotiation of lopsided trade agreements. I will vote Democrat again to see to it Obama's legislation stands. Republican's are for industry, and against the working man. However there are a couple of changes I look forwad to when the next republican takes office. They are less restrictive on industry, so some of the products will be taken from risk, and the tree hugging legislation will soften to keep us working. The EPA put Catterpillar out of the commercial truck business. Also I am tired of this Obama is taking your guns BS artificially driving gun sales, and driving up the cost. An M1-AR 15 use to cost $875.00 today they are over $1,200. So I look forward to the demand and price of firearms to fall.

 

As for the UAW, all other unions, and their complacency, and leaching a free ride off their constituents. They created the dynamic.

 

The precesne of right to work laws in the north, will remove the incentive for companies to move south. Hopefully opening and insourcing new oppertunities and new jobs for the north. Do you remember when the MOA (Modern Operating Agreements) were accepted? Ford gave new product to the plants that had the agreements, and closed the ones that refused them. Being the only state in the US without right to work laws would work in the same manner. It doesn't help that more then half the country already has these laws, it doesn't help that you are competing against all the lower states for work. The manufacturers will move to what ever states provide them with a lower cost base.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[longball]

Just a little bit dramatic there Die. Let's be clear I voted demcrat in the last election, I was for social medicine (I had the longest standing thread on this topic on BOF), and for the renegotiation of lopsided trade agreements. I will vote Democrat again to see to it Obama's legislation stands. Republican's are for industry, and against the working man. However there are a couple of changes I look forwad to when the next republican takes office. They are less restrictive on industry, so some of the products will be taken from risk, and the tree hugging legislation will soften to keep us working. The EPA put Catterpillar out of the commercial truck business. Also I am tired of this Obama is taking your guns BS artificially driving gun sales, and driving up the cost. An M1-AR 15 use to cost $875.00 today they are over $1,200. So I look forward to the demand and price of firearms to fall.

 

As for the UAW, all other unions, and their complacency, and leaching a free ride off their constituents. They created the dynamic.

 

The precesne of right to work laws in the north, will remove the incentive for companies to move south. Hopefully opening and insourcing new oppertunities and new jobs for the north. Do you remember when the MOA (Modern Operating Agreements) were accepted? Ford gave new product to the plants that had the agreements, and closed the ones that refused them. Being the only state in the US without right to work laws would work in the same manner. It doesn't help that more then half the country already has these laws, it doesn't help that you are competing against all the lower states for work. The manufacturers will move to what ever states provide them with a lower cost base.

 

If I read you correctly, you believe we need to work for less per hour in Ohio, if we want more industry....is that what you really think my blue collar friend? I can follow your logic, but isn't that in opposition of all unions....should we all take $5.00 / hr jobs so we are all employed....or should the unions hold their ground and bring the others' wages up to a livable level.....you are probably too young to understand that the unions....UAW in particular are the reason your not working for $2.00 / hr....I don't want to enter the race to the bottom...we have a work ethic here that can not be equaled in the south....

[Furious1Auto]

Longball, for as long as I have been in opposition to right to work laws, and as many times as I have posted against it, and for as much as I have bitched about free trade nothing is changing. I may have helped a few who didn't understand and become enlightened, but nothing has been done to stop it. At this point the existence of these laws in the south are stealing work where I live. I can name several companies who have moved out of my area to set up shop in the south. York International is one, but there are many. In the 1970's my home town was flooded with work. Ford, US Steel, BF Goodrich, Fruehauf, Thew Shovel, American Ship Building CO. Many thousands of good paying jobs.

 

Now just 40 years later there is nothing, it's supported by in large by government poverty entitlements. I had to move from my home town because it is no longer safe to live there. They are starving the people of work, and the crime is rising as a result. I had 4 robbery attempts on my house last year, house broken in to, garage broken in to. The problem is joblessness, how else do you propose to fix this problem? The ones with the coin, have decided to move the work to lower cost labor markets, so what ware we to do. I left home to work, just as my father did once he left school. What do people with no means do? Seriously man, this is not some sad story I am watching on T.V., these are my friends and family living in these conditions.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Furious1Auto

[cal50]

Also I am tired of this Obama is taking your guns BS artificially driving gun sales, and driving up the cost. An M1-AR 15 use to cost $875.00 today they are over $1,200. So I look forward to the demand and price of firearms to fall.

 

 

You are more than a little off on your current pricing.....there are a lot of AR based rifles for well under a grand. Gun shows are loaded with firearms now and prices have come down. Ammo is still high but gold and metals being price higher I doubt it will be coming down any time soon. M1 Garand's can be had for under a grand and a M1A will be over a grand.

 

Obama and liberals are no friend of firearm owners either. As a whole they push more restrictive laws and that drive the prices up and does little to mitigate or punish people that use firearms in crime. Wait and see how his last 2 supreme court appointments rule on any firearm related issue before them. Instead of a decision based on the letter of law it will be another social interpretation against personal freedom and the 2nd amendment that is pretty clearly written but loosely interpreted. Predictable liberal's.

[Armstrong]

As a avid Sportsman and a personally protected American I feel no fear of the Boogie Man Obama comin to get my guns and ammo. I laughed at all of the hysteria around the tax per round rumors and the stockpiling of ammo by severely paranoid people.

 

Let me guess you ran out and bought ammo by the cases cause Obamas comin. The winners were ammo companies and arms manufacturers. People that bought into the hysteria and paid 3 times as much for guns and ammo with no threat.

 

Obama has no anti gun, ammo, hunter agenda, now I see the blame will be on Supreme Court appointments from you comments

 

Keep adding to a non existent threat.

 

You Republicans crack me up

[Furious1Auto]

You are more than a little off on your current pricing.....there are a lot of AR based rifles for well under a grand. Gun shows are loaded with firearms now and prices have come down. Ammo is still high but gold and metals being price higher I doubt it will be coming down any time soon. M1 Garand's can be had for under a grand and a M1A will be over a grand.

 

Obama and liberals are no friend of firearm owners either. As a whole they push more restrictive laws and that drive the prices up and does little to mitigate or punish people that use firearms in crime. Wait and see how his last 2 supreme court appointments rule on any firearm related issue before them. Instead of a decision based on the letter of law it will be another social interpretation against personal freedom and the 2nd amendment that is pretty clearly written but loosely interpreted. Predictable liberal's.

 

Yes, you can buy a Sporticle for under a grand, I said an M1, and they are $1,200. My brother holds an FFL, and is an arms dealer. He has a picture of Obama outside his shop the a says, " You don't know what I'm gonna do next "! The people in the business have capitalized on a Democrat being in office, and have used it as a marketing tool.

[cal50]

As a avid Sportsman and a personally protected American I feel no fear of the Boogie Man Obama comin to get my guns and ammo. I laughed at all of the hysteria around the tax per round rumors and the stockpiling of ammo by severely paranoid people.

 

Let me guess you ran out and bought ammo by the cases cause Obamas comin. The winners were ammo companies and arms manufacturers. People that bought into the hysteria and paid 3 times as much for guns and ammo with no threat.

 

Obama has no anti gun, ammo, hunter agenda, now I see the blame will be on Supreme Court appointments from you comments

 

Keep adding to a non existent threat.

 

You Republicans crack me up

 

 

It must be a coincidence that Obama's home state of Illinois is still one of the few (or 2) states that have zero provision for CHL licensing and a LOT of restrictions on firearms you can not legally own. Face it, most large urban area's run by liberals are shit holes and the one place you might need a firearm the most is the place its hard to legally buy and own. They do have great hospitals with trauma centers thanks to a largely stupid population that shoot, stab and beats each other on a regular basis.

 

As for buying ammo I have always purchased it several cases at a time well before Obama and his like moved to Washington. He only increased the cost of it. Obama's voting record for firearm ownership has sided against it prior to him as president. He has more problems to deal with now so the firearm battle is a lot farther down on his list and the botched BATFE Fast & Furious will set him back ever further. The AG Holder should go to jail or be fired but that is another topic.

 

 

 

On a side note the assault weapon ban expired and you can buy your AR15 or "other" semi automatic rifle with all of the evil features attached. There has not been an increase of drive by bayonet assaults so the once deemed non- sporting features are put back on. Your average AR can be had for $800'ish. Garand's (if collectible) do go for over a grand and higher but there are several service grade rifles under a grand and the DCM still has some available in this price range. I have several of each grade.

 

I dropped my FFL a few years back but still collect and have several class 3 toys which means I will never be an Illinois resident.

I have fired several years at Camp Perry and enjoy long range and highpower service rifle competition all of which costs a lot more now then it did when I started. Good luck finding any flaming liberals on the firing line.

 

A biased opinion from a registered independent firearm owner and NRA certified instructor.

[Furious1Auto]

Hmm, a Link right to DPMS's website. Not one for 800ish. That's what I own, and that's what was 879 pre Obama scare. DPMS

[Furious1Auto]

Arrrg.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Furious1Auto