RichardJensen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) To a certain extent, yes. To the extent that if you were going to build your own dump truck or box truck or fire truck, it would be helpful to know that stuff. But how many people buy cab/chassis vehicles that aren't bodybuilders? And regarding the tractor, I don't know what to tell you. Other than you should see a qualified dealer :D Also, that cut sheets are pretty useless things (we used to call them tear sheets, same idea. You get a bunch of 'em printed and glued up at the top, then you just tear one off and hand it to a customer). Edited January 25, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I wonder if there is any relationship between the truck going into Avon and the NEW CV truck going to be built in the UK transit plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 OOPs, OK, Now I understand... Would increasing the 6.2 V8 to say, 7.0 help the situation by making it a bigger air pump that is less stressed and less prone to over heat or would that create even more problems? I get the feeling that the 6.2 is too small for SD and too big for F150..... The 6.2 "BOSS" is capable of 7.0 liters. Google "Roush 777". 700 HP on E85! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) NO GCW rating. And regarding the tractor, I don't know what to tell you. Other than you should see a qualified dealer :D HAH! Just pulled the heavy duty towing guide off the Ford towing guide website... And I quote: Specific GCWR and Maximum Trailer Weight applicable to a given F-650/F-750 model depend on many variables and customer performance expectations. See your Ford dealership sales consultant for a Commercial Truck Tools (CTT) performance evaluation for a specific vehicle/trailer configuration. (emphasis mine) Edited January 25, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 I wonder if there is any relationship between the truck going into Avon and the NEW CV truck going to be built in the UK transit plant. To steer this thread back on topic (not that I have not enjoyed the 6.2L emission certification discussion)- Yes, I have wondered about that! I have heard rumors that the 'Avon Lake Medium' may not be what we would consider a traditional medium duty truck. Word seems to be that Ford will be targeting specific medium duty markets with the new truck and not building a vehicle line in a multitude of configurations like the International DuraStar or Freightliner M2. If true, that might make a lot of sense for Ford. I think it would allow Ford to offer a price competitive vehicle in the vocations they choose to participate in, and stay out of the less profitable and far more specialized vocations that require a 'custom' truck. Another rumor is Ford's attempts to increase the sales volume of the 6.7L Powerstroke is driving the 'Avon Lake Medium'. Making the engine available in more truck lines is a good way to increase sales, no question. I don't know how reliable these rumors are just yet, but given the sales volume of the current F-650 and F-750, I can't see Ford putting the effort of a new vehicle into a market of less than 10,000 units/year. Sure, medium duty sales will grow as the economy recovers, but what can Ford reasonably expect? Is it worth Ford's efforts to compete with International and Freightliner truck for truck? European style medium duty? Could represent a whole new market, taking sales from traditional medium duty trucks on the higher GVW end, and F-450 and F-550 sales on the lower end. Somewhere between class 5 and 6. One Ford? Stay tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Here is a question for all the Avon Lake Medium fans....would Ford or could Ford introduce the "shelved" 4.4L diesel that was originally planned for F150? I am thinking the 4.4L may be a good fit in the Avon Lake Medium chassis....thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Here is a question for all the Avon Lake Medium fans....would Ford or could Ford introduce the "shelved" 4.4L diesel that was originally planned for F150? I am thinking the 4.4L may be a good fit in the Avon Lake Medium chassis....thoughts? No, I think the 4.4L would probably be too small. Also, if one of the reasons for the 'Avon Lake Medium' is in fact to use the 6.7L Powerstroke, why would Ford want to offer another diesel? I was thinking the 4.4L might find a home in the E-Series cut-aways, but I don't think that's likely since the Transit is on the way. Unfortunately, I think the 4.4L is dead. At least in the U.S........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 No, I think the 4.4L would probably be too small. Also, if one of the reasons for the 'Avon Lake Medium' is in fact to use the 6.7L Powerstroke, why would Ford want to offer another diesel? I was thinking the 4.4L might find a home in the E-Series cut-aways, but I don't think that's likely since the Transit is on the way. Unfortunately, I think the 4.4L is dead. At least in the U.S........ 7Mary3...did Ford ever release any power rating info on the 4.4L....I still believe it would make a case for a sturdy back-bone in conjunction with some type of hybrid setup from Azure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Word seems to be that Ford will be targeting specific medium duty markets with the new truck and not building a vehicle line in a multitude of configurations like the International DuraStar or Freightliner M2. If true, that might make a lot of sense for Ford. I think it would allow Ford to offer a price competitive vehicle in the vocations they choose to participate in, and stay out of the less profitable and far more specialized vocations that require a 'custom' truck. You could be correct on this-however, don't the more specialized options command a better price? and I can't see anything much more basic than the current spec list for 650/750 Another rumor is Ford's attempts to increase the sales volume of the 6.7L Powerstroke is driving the 'Avon Lake Medium'. Making the engine available in more truck lines is a good way to increase sales, no question. No doubt economy of scale is important. If this new "medium"however is to have a lot of "Transit commonality", the V-8 might be kind of hard to shoe horn in- if it won't fit in an E-450, what are the chances it will make it in the Transit given its inline roots. I don't know how reliable these rumors are just yet, but given the sales volume of the current F-650 and F-750, I can't see Ford putting the effort of a new vehicle into a market of less than 10,000 units/year. Sure, medium duty sales will grow as the economy recovers, but what can Ford reasonably expect? Is it worth Ford's efforts to compete with International and Freightliner truck for truck? IMO, the current sales figures are a function of the economy and also a less than max effort on Ford's part to go after the business. Again pure theory on my part but I always had the feeling Bluediamond was a holding operation. 7m-you have been around a long time- look at the old sales figures. If Hino thinks they can crack the market with NO customer base, I would hope there is enough of a loyal customer base still out there that will respond to a world class offering. I always have a tough time accepting the fact that others can do it, but Ford, a former vocational truck powerhouse,can't. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 To the extent that if you were going to build your own dump truck or box truck or fire truck, it would be helpful to know that stuff. But how many people buy cab/chassis vehicles that aren't bodybuilders? Actually, most chassis are bought by the end user who then selects his prefered body installer-be it dump,tank, box hook lift etc. Unless its the dealer who is building a truck for stock as a dump, wrecker etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 HAH! Just pulled the heavy duty towing guide off the Ford towing guide website... And I quote: (emphasis mine) Thx Richard- "towing guide" to me would not apply to tractor configuation-what can I say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 'Loyal customer base'......................... That was us. After the last few years of Blue Diamond products??? Want to see my new Freightliner? Just got it Tuesday. You make some very good points Bob. Like I said, this is all based on rumors and probably a little speculation on the part of those I heard it from. I think the highly specialized end of the vocational market can and is profitably served by companies like International, whose assembly lines and manufacturing process can accomdate such vehicles. I get the impression Ford wants to build medium trucks like they build pickups or Fusions: Fast moving assembly lines, minimum variety. Not to say that Ford won't be able to find a profitable niche with that plan. Think of all the 'cookie-cutter' box van mediums the rental fleets buy in a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 7Mary3...did Ford ever release any power rating info on the 4.4L....I still believe it would make a case for a sturdy back-bone in conjunction with some type of hybrid setup from Azure... Hmmm, now there's a thought. But why a dirty expensive diesel, how about a CNG or LNG engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thx Richard- "towing guide" to me would not apply to tractor configuation-what can I say Regardless, it also doesn't have information about the GCWR. I'm guessing it's a move to save paper/costs. You write a bit of code, train your sales reps (on their dime, not yours), and bam, no more "Please discard" notices and "I'm sorry, you're looking at the 2011 guide. That widget is no longer available." conversations with customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hmmm, now there's a thought. But why a dirty expensive diesel, how about a CNG or LNG engine? If you think CNG is expensive, LNG is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. I have only heard of LNG in conjunction with diesel (the diesel is use to light off the natural gas), The plumbing is incredibly complex and the LNG tank is HUGE ! LNGs biggest advantage over CNG is range. Most medium duty are used locally. I believe the only company doing LNG is Westport and in a JV with Cummins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 And in the F650 the diesel is the 6.7 l Cummins. Today it is. Ford has already announced that future versions of the F650-750 would the Ford 6.7L diesel and the 6.8L 3V gasser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Would increasing the 6.2 V8 to say, 7.0 help the situation by making it a bigger air pump that is less stressed and less prone to over heat or would that create even more problems? I get the feeling that the 6.2 is too small for SD and too big for F150..... The 6.2L was designed as a new "family" of engines. Even though the project was put on the "back burner" several time and had several code names (Hurricane, Big Bore), it succeeded in its primary goal. That is, getting similar power and better fuel economy than the 6.8L in the Super Duty product line. While sales of the 6.2L in the F150 are not breaking any records, it is the standard engine in the Raptor and Harley Davidson models and optional in the Lariat and Platinum models. Personally, I think the engine would be better with 3 or 4 smaller valves and only 1 more centrally located spark plug instead of 2 HUGE valves and 2 spark plugs. But spark plugs are cheaper than valves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I would think the 4.4L would work as a base engine, and considering that Ford was set to go with install in F150 until the price of fuel came out of the stratosphere, I would think that they want to re-coup some of the engineering costs by actually using the engine in Medium Duty. I read where the 4.4 spec'ed out at around 330 HP and over 500 ft. lbs. of torque...not too shabby for such a "small" motor. Pair that with a modern hybrid system from Azure and you would have companies like UPS and FedEx clamoring for the chassis under their Morgan Olson Route Star bodies Morgan Olson Route Star / Ford Azure / F450 product card Edited January 26, 2012 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 While sales of the 6.2L in the F150 are not breaking any records, it is the standard engine in the Raptor and Harley Davidson models and optional in the Lariat and Platinum models. I believe thats more so for CAFE requirements then anything else.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Today it is. Ford has already announced that future versions of the F650-750 would the Ford 6.7L diesel and the 6.8L 3V gasser. Now IMO, if in fact the Cummins is replaced by the Ford V-8, that is not good news. I'm sure that many customers are STILL gun-shy when it comes to V-8's and the Cummins by comparison is a relatively simple, proven design. No doubt, from the perspective of profitability, it sure does make sense to maximize Ford's own engine production. I just hope that is not a short term gain as longevity and operating cost become an issue. Remember the old Power Strokes were initially offered in the 650. That did not last too long however. Recognizing that we are talking apples and oranges when comparing the old 6.0/6.4 International with the new Ford PS, I think the perception about "Power Strokes" remains. Might be okay in a yuppie toy puller hauling a single hoirse trailer, but pulling the Herkimer Summit westbound on the NY Thruway with a 24' box truck grossing 33,000 lbs is another story. IFEG-sounds like you know what I mean. 7m3- This decision adds credence to your theory that a true class 7 truck is not in the cards sad to say. Again an opinion prejudiced by the old days when there was no such thing as a V-8 diesel that could hold a candle to an inline diesel. Interesting to note- all the big guys (Mack, Cummins, Cat, Detroit) at one time or another had V-8 offerings. Guess how many are offered today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAM Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Today it is. Ford has already announced that future versions of the F650-750 would the Ford 6.7L diesel and the 6.8L 3V gasser. And where was this announced?? Keep in mind that the Cummins and the new Powerstroke are both 6.7L................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 And where was this announced?? Keep in mind that the Cummins and the new Powerstroke are both 6.7L................... Boy, is my face RED ! For some months now I have been reading 6.7L diesel in F650/750 and ASSUMING it meant the PowerStroke. I apologize for miss leading all of you ! P.S. The PowerStroke diesel is available in the F250 through F550. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vision street wear 2 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 The 4.4L is actually more expensive to make than the 6.7L. The Scorpion, 6.8L, and 6R140 are going to be making their way to the trucks. Just a matter of sorting out current contracts with Cummins, Allision, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Boy, is my face RED ! For some months now I have been reading 6.7L diesel in F650/750 and ASSUMING it meant the PowerStroke. I apologize for miss leading all of you ! P.S. The PowerStroke diesel is available in the F250 through F550. "Wiz" Glad it was your mistake and NOT Ford's decision to drop the Cummins in favor of the Ford 6.7- how about if we refer to it as the "Ford V8D" If they want to offer the V-8 in the 650, fine, in some applications it should work-just don't make it "THE" engine in 650/750 :beerchug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 "Wiz" Glad it was your mistake and NOT Ford's decision to drop the Cummins in favor of the Ford 6.7- how about if we refer to it as the "Ford V8D" If they want to offer the V-8 in the 650, fine, in some applications it should work-just don't make it "THE" engine in 650/750 :beerchug: And I would like to clarify that I have NOT heard that the 6.7L Cummins wouldn't be in the new mediums, only that the plan is to make the 6.7L Powerstroke available in the new mediums. I have not heard anything about the 6.7L Powerstroke being the exclusive diesel in these trucks. vision street wear 2's comment is interesting, about sorting out contracts with Cummins and Allison. There could be a clue there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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