Are Ford Employees Really Ford Enthusiast?

[RichardJensen]

Be pretty silly for the automakers to put COLA on the table if the UAW negotiators weren't asking for it.

[BrewfanGRB]

 

Social Security benefits to increase 3.6%

 

Goddam, throw grandma from the train.

 

Fuck grandma and her damn COLA.

 

Yeah, well grandma isn't getting ANY lump sum payments--$1000, $16000 or otherwise. It's simply not comparable to begin with because COLA for OASDI beneficiaries is codified in law. (Worth noting: They went 2 years with no increase at all under the COLA because inflation was effectively 0%). So that argument fails. You're welcome to keep trying--I can do this all day.

 

 

This a negotiated outcome. that is up to $16,000 not guaranteed 16,000 dollars. put it this way Give up a COLA increase over 4 years and some restitution for the sacrifices of the past 4 years.

 

For a quick look, let's use round numbers. If someone makes $50,000 a year, then a $1,000 lump sum at GM could cover 2% inflation. A $1,500 lump sum at Ford would cover 3% inflation.

 

 

"Restitution"? Are you kidding? Again...you're arguing for a return to way doing things that caused the labor cost imbalances in the first place! Wow....smh. And that last sentence directly blows your complaint about COLA out of the water anyway--if a lump sum of $1500 covers 3% inflation, then you're getting a larger-than-inflation COLA through the lump sum payments that ARE guaranteed.

 

I know many will take my positions in these last few posts as union-bashing. Not in the least. I PERSONALLY don't really care one way or another. I understand the UAW has been around a long time and many of today's members are just dealing with what was already there when they were hired.

 

It's the entitlement attitude that irritates me--that merely BECAUSE you're in the union you are entitled to certain pay, benefits or other compensation. That's market distortion. This isn't the 1920's--you're not mining coal with no gear at all and dying of black lung at age 40. You're already paid an above market wage with reasonably good (or better) health insurance benefits. Maybe a poor public perception of the UAW isn't a problem---after all Ford is selling lots of cars at a profit and you're getting paid, so who cares, right?

Edited October 22, 2011 by BrewfanGRB

[akirby]

What if teh company decided to let go of 30,000 other workers, cut your pay, and closed your plant all in the span of 5 years, all the while telling you that they needed these concessions in order to stay in business? then a few years later they are making record profits due to no small part to your sacrifices, now behave like a drunken sailor reinstating dividends and handing out bonuses, while pleading poor when they talk about reinstating some of the "temporary" Concessions that were made?

 

The issues is not about how much they made it is about what they promised, vs what was actually done. Promises were made and some were broken, union or not in a employer/employee relationship not honoring commitments, is a very bad thing.

 

You don't get it, do you? Ford had too much capacity for the market. Those changes were necessary to remain competitive - period. And now they're committing new products and new jobs as they start to grow again. These aren't things they just decide to do for fun - it's all driven by the market.

 

As for your "concessions" - those simply brought you back somewhat in line with the going market rates. Ford can't afford to pay you guys more than the market rate and stay competitive with the other mfrs including GM and Chrysler.

 

You were overcompensated for decades and it was great while it lasted. But it's not sustainable going forward. The UAW negotiators and most of the employees understand this and accept it. You need to get over it.

 

If someone offered you 150 dollars to cut their lawn would you turn it down?

 

Of course not. But when they came back and said we can only pay you $100 now I wouldn't bitch, whine and threaten to go on strike.

[Maislebandit]

But the one thing I would never do is go on strike.

 

Probably because you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do so.

 

Educate yourself with the history of the US labor movement and tell me what you think common working conditions would be like today, if our forefathers elected to "never go on strike".

 

Here's what you are not seeing or not wanting to see . You claim you have the luxury of job shopping yourself around. Fine. Any idea why you are able to do so?

 

I don't want to hear the education/mensa/experience/skill crap either. Skip the Labor movement and you geniuses are paupers and slaves like the rest of us.

[mettech]

Probably because you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do so.

 

Educate yourself with the history of the US labor movement and tell me what you think common working conditions would be like today, if our forefathers elected to "never go on strike".

 

Here's what you are not seeing or not wanting to see . You claim you have the luxury of job shopping yourself around. Fine. Any idea why you are able to do so?

 

I don't want to hear the education/mensa/experience/skill crap either. Skip the Labor movement and you geniuses are paupers and slaves like the rest of us.

 

Evolution, technology, competition, Insurance companies and Federal Gov intervention would have solved the common working conditions issues with or without union assistance.

 

It so happens that the union movement happened at the same time.

 

If you believe that unions are primarily responsible for improved working conditions.... then how is it that the military and other government agencies excel in safety training, implementation?

[aneekr]

You claim you have the luxury of job shopping yourself around. Fine. Any idea why you are able to do so?

Freedom of association. Something the modern labor movement in the U.S. aims to vitiate.

 

The "education/mensa/experience/skill crap" plays a role too.

[Sixt9coug]

I work for a major automotive paint company. I love what I do, and I love the field. Obviously, I am also a car guy. It never ceases to amaze me though, on how many of my coworkers aren't car guys, or who have never really painted anything before in their lives. I know that just because you work with auto paint doesn't mean you HAVE to have been a painter, but there are certain positions where that might be important.

[Biker16]

The $16k is guaranteed. Profit sharing is over and above this amount.

 

They already had profit sharing, how that be consider Extra.

 

$6,000 lump sum upon

ratifi cation for employees with

one or more years of seniority

or $5,000 for employees with

less than one year.

• $1,500 Infl ation Protection

lump sums in 2012, 2013, 2014

and 2015.

 

 

$16,000 is not guaranteed.

[BrewfanGRB]

Educate yourself with the history of the US labor movement and tell me what you think common working conditions would be like today, if our forefathers elected to "never go on strike".

 

Here's what you are not seeing or not wanting to see . You claim you have the luxury of job shopping yourself around. Fine. Any idea why you are able to do so?

 

And if we accept this to be true, what does that have to do with paying over-market wages and benefits NOW---when NOW the government (and the market itself) demand safe working conditions and the 40 hour work week....and the market itself has set vacation time, health insurance benefits, etc as de facto standards for most workers.

 

Additionally, at the time unions were important to worker protections (when coal miners WERE mistreated and other workers had no benefits), this was in the middle of the industrial revolution/peak industrialization. Our economy is now heavily service-oriented, so I don't really need workplace SAFETY protections like workers in dangerous occupations do. So, yes, unions might very well deserve thanks for being part of the evolutions of worker benefits...but they are not needed NOW to ensure those protections continue.

[BrewfanGRB]

They already had profit sharing, how that be consider Extra.

 

He said it was ABOVE the $16,000 lump sum payments....so fine, the $16,000 is EXTRA, not the profit sharing.

Edited October 22, 2011 by BrewfanGRB

[Biker16]

Evolution, technology, competition, Insurance companies and Federal Gov intervention would have solved the common working conditions issues with or without union assistance.

 

It so happens that the union movement happened at the same time.

 

If you believe that unions are primarily responsible for improved working conditions.... then how is it that the military and other government agencies excel in safety training, implementation?

 

It sounds so magical.

 

Magic like somehow the When the unions lost their strength, beginning in the 80s, this happens to be when the wages of the middle class began to stagnate.

 

You infer that thing work themselves out, without issues like worker safety, and wage increases being forced by the workers themselves.

 

It is telling that Even the Chinese Government is allowing workers to organize into unions, because it is the most effective way to increase wages and benefits for workers, even in non-union shops.

 

A Labor Movement Stirs in China

 

You do realize that 30 years ago benefits, that today are considered luxurious were standard fare for both union and non union shops.

 

That a Pensions and small bit of security for worker was a commonplace before the 80s? That itisn't the benifit packages that the UAW enjoys that have changed it is the benefit packages that the rest of labor market have become so much worse. Unless you are in the military, of course. My concern is that the people take the side of business over the Rights of workers, under some delusional idea that what is good for business is good for everyone. I am a Ford Stockholder I have money invested in this company I read their SEC fillings too, and they could have easily reinstated COLA, they could have Rejigged it to be less generous, even less generous than the bonuses they are paying right now. it was in ford interest to have the appearance of Fixed costs savings than true cost savings. this is what got their credit rating upgraded, it makes sense, to them.

 

Ford could have matched the GM signing bonus, and reinstated COLA and nit would have saved them tens of million of dollars. but paying the bonus allows them to "appear" to keep their costs in check. like I said before in the end it does not matter because The industry is too complex to make it a Simple UAW vs Ford thing. Ford will have 4000 entry level worker by the end of this contract, hopefully the UAW will have 2 or more transplants organized in that same time period. VW will be first, maybe Hyundai next. long term the Ford and UAW need to organize the transplants, and Ford needs more tier 2 workers.

 

Things will begin to move much faster, thing that were considered Wasteful will come back. 3 shifts, in-sourcing, and unions.

 

Remember there will always be a difference of opinion, in everything.

[mettech]

It sounds so magical.

 

Magic like somehow the When the unions lost their strength, beginning in the 80s, this happens to be when the wages of the middle class began to stagnate.

 

You infer that thing work themselves out, without issues like worker safety, and wage increases being forced by the workers themselves.

 

It is telling that Even the Chinese Government is allowing workers to organize into unions, because it is the most effective way to increase wages and benefits for workers, even in non-union shops.

 

A Labor Movement Stirs in China

 

You do realize that 30 years ago benefits, that today are considered luxurious were standard fare for both union and non union shops.

 

That a Pensions and small bit of security for worker was a commonplace before the 80s? That itisn't the benefit packages that the UAW enjoys that have changed it is the benefit packages that the rest of labor market have become so much worse. Unless you are in the military, of course. My concern is that the people take the side of business over the Rights of workers, under some delusional idea that what is good for business is good for everyone. I am a Ford Stockholder I have money invested in this company I read their SEC fillings too, and they could have easily reinstated COLA, they could have Rejigged it to be less generous, even less generous than the bonuses they are paying right now. it was in ford interest to have the appearance of Fixed costs savings than true cost savings. this is what got their credit rating upgraded, it makes sense, to them.

 

Ford could have matched the GM signing bonus, and reinstated COLA and nit would have saved them tens of million of dollars. but paying the bonus allows them to "appear" to keep their costs in check. like I said before in the end it does not matter because The industry is too complex to make it a Simple UAW vs Ford thing. Ford will have 4000 entry level worker by the end of this contract, hopefully the UAW will have 2 or more transplants organized in that same time period. VW will be first, maybe Hyundai next. long term the Ford and UAW need to organize the transplants, and Ford needs more tier 2 workers.

 

Things will begin to move much faster, thing that were considered Wasteful will come back. 3 shifts, in-sourcing, and unions.

 

Remember there will always be a difference of opinion, in everything.

 

Appreciate the differences of opinion statement...

 

Agreeing to a fixed amount of pay increase vs COLA protects the company from an unmanageable and possible runway overhead. A company and the market can predict what the cost will be per worker from day one of the contract to the last day of the contract.

 

I will be surprised if the UAW is able to get any transplants soon. I would think that BMW and VW would be at the top of the list of the possible UAW creep into the transplants.

 

I hope the UAW and Detroit 3 does not repeat poor business practices of the past that bankrupt two of the three and caused the other one to mortgaged everything to include the name.

 

To lose a few... or many disgruntled workers is better than losing a whole company. Without the company... no one has a job.

[jpd80]

1) They already had profit sharing, how that be consider Extra.

 

 

 

 

2) $16,000 is not guaranteed.

 

Two things:

 

1) It's the level of profit sharing that's important, I believe it's now around $1 per $1 million in pre tax profit earned each quarter...

Ford is talking around $3,700 for the first six months of 2011, not sure when or how much your last bonus was........2010?

 

2) Since reductions began in 2006, most remaining employees have at least five years with the company and are thus eligible.

 

All I hope for is that workers start seeing cash in their pockets for a job well done and plenty of overtime for financial breathing space...

Edited October 23, 2011 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

They already had profit sharing, how that be consider Extra.

 

 

 

 

$16,000 is not guaranteed.

The profit sharing has been expanded. That's what makes it 'extra'.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ford-uaw-contract-gains-support-ongoing-vote-165313586.html

Over the term of the contract, Ford workers are guaranteed at least $16,000 in bonuses

[RichardJensen]

Evolution, technology, competition, Insurance companies and Federal Gov intervention would have solved the common working conditions issues with or without union assistance.

 

It so happens that the union movement happened at the same time.

 

If you believe that unions are primarily responsible for improved working conditions.... then how is it that the military and other government agencies excel in safety training, implementation?

Helpfully, I will edit your statement so that only statements which can be supported by credible sources remain:

 

[mettech]

LOL.. good one..

 

Does anyone believe that the phonograph would have been invented without Edison?

 

So.. did the unions lead the way for change? Yes.

Did the government allow the changes? Yes

 

Does anyone really think that the evolution of a better work environment would have happened without unions?

 

 

 

[Biker16]

Appreciate the differences of opinion statement...

 

Agreeing to a fixed amount of pay increase vs COLA protects the company from an unmanageable and possible runway overhead. A company and the market can predict what the cost will be per worker from day one of the contract to the last day of the contract.

 

I will be surprised if the UAW is able to get any transplants soon. I would think that BMW and VW would be at the top of the list of the possible UAW creep into the transplants.

 

I hope the UAW and Detroit 3 does not repeat poor business practices of the past that bankrupt two of the three and caused the other one to mortgaged everything to include the name.

 

To lose a few... or many disgruntled workers is better than losing a whole company. Without the company... no one has a job.

 

there were decision made by The Big 3's management that placed them at an extreme disadvantage. primarily their lack of investment in products and improving operating efficiency.

 

COLA's formula could have been adjusted to be less rich, and it would have been cheaper than the current bonus structure. COlA is less predictable than bonuses are.

 

how come COLA is ok for the military but not UAW workers?

 

COLA in the military

[mettech]

there were decision made by The Big 3's management that placed them at an extreme disadvantage. primarily their lack of investment in products and improving operating efficiency.

 

COLA's formula could have been adjusted to be less rich, and it would have been cheaper than the current bonus structure. COlA is less predictable than bonuses are.

 

how come COLA is ok for the military but not UAW workers?

 

COLA in the military

 

 

Military personnel does not campaign for, nor do we vote for any type of pay or benefits. In fact, none of our pay or benefits are guaranteed. There is no law, there are no promises, there are no contracts for military personnel pay or benefits.

 

That is the way it has to be... and there is a reason for it too.

 

The previous pay raises for the past 30 years have been linked more toward catching up to the private sector pay for equal responsibility, education requirements and skills.

[Biker16]

Military personnel does not campaign for, nor do we vote for any type of pay or benefits. In fact, none of our pay or benefits are guaranteed. There is no law, there are no promises, there are no contracts for military personnel pay or benefits.

 

That is the way it has to be... and there is a reason for it too.

 

The previous pay raises for the past 30 years have been linked more toward catching up to the private sector pay for equal responsibility, education requirements and skills.

 

There is a inherent difference between Private and public sector workers, the people determine you pay and benefits, You are working for a higher power, the citizens of the united states, We the people are not seeking to maximize profits but to maximize utility. in the private sector the incentives for business are for more profit, as much legal profit as possible. left unchecked corporations would maximize their own profits at the expense of thier workers, paying as little as posible, generally workers have very little leverage in these matters, even in Skilled professional larbor the Floor and the ceilings of each field are set by employers, not workers. It is about leverage, non professional worker have very little without collective bargaining, It is collective Self interest of worker to maximize their pay and benefits. you are arguing that this is wrong? how can it be any less wrong to want to pay as little in wages and benefits to maximize your profits? both collective bargaining and profit increases by reducing wages and benefits left unchecked can destroy a company. look at Circuit City, labor costs are looked at as low hanging fruit, that short term cost savings can hide real problems from Stockholders, and the public.

[BrewfanGRB]

Does anyone really think that the evolution of a better work environment would have happened without unions?

 

Yes. But, it would have taken longer and more people would have endured poor conditions, low pay, etc. It's simply not logical to say that all the things unions take credit as being solely responsible for would have NEVER happened.

[RichardJensen]

LOL.. good one..

 

Does anyone believe that the phonograph would have been invented without Edison?

 

So.. did the unions lead the way for change? Yes.

Did the government allow the changes? Yes

 

Does anyone really think that the evolution of a better work environment would have happened without unions?

1 - The phonograph WAS invented without Edison: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Cros

 

2 - Brandeis Brief. Economic Due Process. Look them up.

[grbeck]

Ford will have 4000 entry level worker by the end of this contract, hopefully the UAW will have 2 or more transplants organized in that same time period. VW will be first, maybe Hyundai next. long term the Ford and UAW need to organize the transplants, and Ford needs more tier 2 workers.

 

The UAW's problem is that it was born under a very specific set of circumstances that are not necessarily applicable today.

 

The UAW was born in an environment that followed the rules laid down by Henry Ford I and reinforced by Alfred P. Sloan:

 

1. Management was the absolute boss, and ran the company and factory as it saw fit.

2. Workers needed to be supervised carefully and harshly, otherwise, they would goof off.

3. Workers were paid for their physical labor; other contributions were not needed or wanted.

4. The goal was always to speed up the line and produce as many cars as quickly as possible.

 

In that environment, it was no wonder the union gained a foothold (helped by the thuggishness of Harry Bennett).

 

The problem for the UAW is twofold. One, the transplants have learned from those mistakes, and are unlikely to repeat them. Two, Toyota and Honda in particular use Lean Production Methods, which tap the innate knowledge of people working on the line to improve the product and the process. That type of environment wears down the "us versus them" mentality that the UAW still relies on to a large extent.

 

The bitter truth is that the UAW has nothing to offer transplant workers, except for the possibility of paying union dues, so Mr. King's bluster aside, the UAW is going to have a very tough time organizing any transplant operations. His only hope is that VW turns out to be as dumb at handling labor relations in North America as Daimler was at running Chrysler.

Edited October 26, 2011 by grbeck

[Biker16]

The UAW's problem is that it was born under a very specific set of circumstances that are not necessarily applicable today.

 

The UAW was born in an environment that followed the rules laid down by Henry Ford I and reinforced by Alfred P. Sloan:

 

1. Management was the absolute boss, and ran the company and factory as it saw fit.

2. Workers needed to be supervised carefully and harshly, otherwise, they would goof off.

3. Workers were paid for their physical labor; other contributions were not needed or wanted.

4. The goal was always to speed up the line and produce as many cars as quickly as possible.

 

In that environment, it was no wonder the union gained a foothold (helped by the thuggishness of Harry Bennett).

 

The problem for the UAW is twofold. One, the transplants have learned from those mistakes, and are unlikely to repeat them. Two, Toyota and Honda in particular use Lean Production Methods, which tap the innate knowledge of people working on the line to improve the product and the process. That type of environment wears down the "us versus them" mentality that the UAW still relies on to a large extent.

 

The bitter truth is that the UAW has nothing to offer transplant workers, except for the possibility of paying union dues, so Mr. King's bluster aside, the UAW is going to have a very tough time organizing any transplant operations. His only hope is that VW turns out to be as dumb at handling labor relations in North America as Daimler was at running Chrysler.

 

Ford those workers at Hyundai they can offer better benefits and at least 3 dollars extra per hour.

 

never forget that Honda and Toyota worker make almost as much as UAW workers do. this is intentionally done to keep the UAW out. another way to think about it, is that they do it to better compete with UAW, in order to keep them out of their plants.

[mettech]

Ford those workers at Hyundai they can offer better benefits and at least 3 dollars extra per hour.

 

never forget that Honda and Toyota worker make almost as much as UAW workers do. this is intentionally done to keep the UAW out. another way to think about it, is that they do it to better compete with UAW, in order to keep them out of their plants.

 

 

Another way to think about it:

UAW is overpaid and their wages are being brought inline with the transplants.:reading:

 

One of the many reasons that the transplants are not flocking to the UAW for protection is: The UAW causes division in the work place.

[Hard Driver]

I'm not so sure that everyone working for Toyota is throwing flowers in the air while they whistle happy tunes. I recently spent a few days in KY and had the opportunity to have a couple of drinks with 3 guys from their assembly plant body shop. They don't seem to feel as free to speak up regarding the negatives in the workplace as union employees do. That's as much as I will say about that conversation.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Hard Driver