Occupy Wall Street

[cal50]

It depends upon your viewpoint.

 

From many peoples' perspective, the "system" allowed Gates to KEEP most of the money he made. (what he does with it is a side issue)

 

 

Yes and that same system allowed GE to pay zero in taxes in the US and they are exporting a medical division off shore currently.

All legal like and above board if you believe the GE CEO while Obama looks the other way .

(He did appoint him for his jobs panel)

 

If Gates paid his tax on earnings he paid his deemed "fair share" per the US tax code as does the little guy. When people get creative and find a hole in the tax code (expensive CPA's and tax attorney's ) is where the system fails the average guy. Buffet does pay less in income tax than his secretary because the bulk of his earning are on capitol gains and not earnings taxed at a higher rate.

 

The tax code needs revamped with a flat tax with no creative exemptions and that would be a good start.

 

There is a moral balance that the rich do not need all that they have so someone (government) should take some of it.

Is it fair Mullaly and Ford Jr. split 100 million each as a bonus?

(No)

 

Is it legal and OK with the shareholder and people that run the company

(Yes)

 

The real question is how much do you let a person keep in revenue they earn or produce. If the tax is too high you will stifle growth and no incentive to try. To little the have not's still point to others that have more and want a piece of it. I have no beef with the rich and wish everyone could be rich. Its not governments job to enrich others by giving away someone else earned money.

[Edstock]

Here's an excerpt from a very thoughtful comment:

 

Will the Anchor Hold?

 

One lesson I have drawn from watching Occupy Wall Street is that we're saddled with a political class that's obsolete. If the OWS people tell us anything it just might be that we're witnessing what could turn into a mass extinction of our conventional politicos.

 

These, our supposed leaders, are of a different time and they're incapable of evolving to survive the rapidly changing events that are overtaking them - and us. They have no answers for us, no guidance, no vision. The engines are still churning but we're rudderless in a sea of shoals.

 

How can one tell they're obsolete? That's actually quite easy. All you need to do is look at the future leaders. They're people not already invested in the existing, sputtering machine. They can see politics for what it is and they don't hesitate to point out what needs fixing. They're not radical. Compared to the existing bunch with their heads buried in the sands of convenience and narrow self-interest, these future leaders are infinitely rational. Unlike the existing leadership, the future leaders want to fix what's broken, to salvage what can still be reclaimed. They want to do these things because they know how much hangs in the balance for their generation and those to follow if they fail. They are not of us. We have seen to that.

 

I've seen their faces, some of them at least. They're part of a movement that toppled Mubarak, revolted in the streets of Athens and Madrid and now occupies Wall Street. The future leader our country, our world, needs will be cut from that cloth.

 

Why do I think the OWS will prevail where so many others have failed? Because this movement is so well anchored by the dual scourges of inequality and climate change. These are two malignancies that the movement's adversaries create and nurture and have absolutely no interest in treating. They're not going away, either of them. All the movement need do to win is persevere until its adversaries inevitably have to own the diseases of their own making.

 

Skepticism on our part is natural. It is only when you get really close into this movement that you can appreciate that it is inevitable and really unstoppable. It is the only vehicle that even attempts to respond to what vexes our youth and what threatens to make their future unlivable. This is not to say that the immediate effort will overturn the world order. That will take some time and follow a path that is not by any means predictable.

 

 

 

 

 

[NickF1011]

It may be that Bill Gates has provided some of the tools for the tripling in productivity that has taken place over the last 30 years (up 400% since 1950). That means nothing if only 1% of society is feeling the benefit.

 

If it wasn't for Microsoft and their shoddy, bug-ridden software, I'd be unemployed. So, go ahead and toss me in that 1%. :shades:

[NickF1011]

How can one tell they're obsolete? That's actually quite easy. All you need to do is look at the future leaders. They're people not already invested in the existing, sputtering machine. They can see politics for what it is and they don't hesitate to point out what needs fixing. They're not radical.

 

Do they go on to identify any of these future leaders here? If not, I'll believe it when I see it. I think drawing comparisons between OWS and the toppling of regimes in Africa is drawing lines where they don't necessarily exist.

[Edstock]

Do they go on to identify any of these future leaders here? If not, I'll believe it when I see it. I think drawing comparisons between OWS and the toppling of regimes in Africa is drawing lines where they don't necessarily exist.

You may be right, you may be wrong; I don't have a dog in this fight, so I really don't care. However, the political scientist in me looks forward to seeing the results of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

 

However, this may just be a real tipping-point in US domestic politics. Again, may be; it's early days yet, and the organization of this effort is like an iceberg — you don't see 90% of it.

 

 

But the summation is really rather simple: for the first time since the Vietnam war, a large segment of educated, committed Americans are linking up in protest and unlike the Vietnam era, these people have the Web, Twitter, Facebook and cell phones to stay in touch.

 

So the oligarchs like the Koch Bros and their minions like Goldman Sachs are waking up to find that the "game" is changing. Thus we get the disparaging comments from their propagandists. Understandable; those Robb Reports are expensive.

 

 

[goinbroke2]

You may be right, you may be wrong; I don't have a dog in this fight, so I really don't care. However, the political scientist in me looks forward to seeing the results of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

 

However, this may just be a real tipping-point in US domestic politics. Again, may be; it's early days yet, and the organization of this effort is like an iceberg — you don't see 90% of it.

 

 

But the summation is really rather simple: for the first time since the Vietnam war, a large segment of educated, committed Americans are linking up in protest and unlike the Vietnam era, these people have the Web, Twitter, Facebook and cell phones to stay in touch.

 

So the oligarchs like the Koch Bros and their minions like Goldman Sachs are waking up to find that the "game" is changing. Thus we get the disparaging comments from their propagandists. Understandable; those Robb Reports are expensive.

 

A whole lot of optimistic rhetoric there.

 

Or

 

It might NOT be a tipping point, just some complainers got together for a while a few years ago and...oh you don't remember? Back in 2010 or 2011 or something like that, they "occupied" bay street or wallstreet or somewhere.

 

For the first time since the vietnam war....uh really? Anyway, kids complaining about the war after how many years and the country tired of it too..(kinda like the irac and afghan protests) and political will changes, normally booting out the president at the same time....yeah, the hopey-changey thing worked out real well didn't it....

 

The "oligarchs" who made millions on one issue and saw times changing and then made millions on another issue, then changed YET AGAIN to make millions more...are this time going to "miss the writing on the wall" and suddenly be lost and lose everything......um...yeah..ok...

 

Talk to me in a year and we'll see if we even remember this. (remember how imports were the new rage and domestic muscle cars were dino's?????)

[cal50]

If it wasn't for Microsoft and their shoddy, bug-ridden software, I'd be unemployed. So, go ahead and toss me in that 1%. :shades:

 

 

Linux.....its not just for routers.....

[grbeck]

I'm betting that this movement will soon implode. The movement as a whole still hasn't conveyed a consistent message, except that members are mad and don't like corporations. And they like to protest. At some point, they need to form a coherent set of positions on issues that concern Americans - visits by Susan Sarandon and Michael Moore will only carry the movement for so long.

 

One website posted an exchange between various Occupy Wall Street leaders in New York, and the main issue of discussion was...the allegedly Zionist occupation of Israel, and whether Israelis are really like Christopher Columbus.

 

Among the regular folk who are upset about the direction of the country but necessarily don't care for the Tea Party, those aren't exactly burning issues right now...

Edited October 18, 2011 by grbeck

[goinbroke2]

You may be right, you may be wrong; I don't have a dog in this fight, so I really don't care. However, the political scientist in me looks forward to seeing the results of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

 

However, this may just be a real tipping-point in US domestic politics. Again, may be; it's early days yet, and the organization of this effort is like an iceberg — you don't see 90% of it.

 

 

But the summation is really rather simple: for the first time since the Vietnam war, a large segment of educated, committed Americans are linking up in protest and unlike the Vietnam era, these people have the Web, Twitter, Facebook and cell phones to stay in touch.

 

So the oligarchs like the Koch Bros and their minions like Goldman Sachs are waking up to find that the "game" is changing. Thus we get the disparaging comments from their propagandists. Understandable; those Robb Reports are expensive.

 

A whole lot of optimistic rhetoric there.

 

Or

 

It might NOT be a tipping point, just some complainers got together for a while a few years ago and...oh you don't remember? Back in 2010 or 2011 or something like that, they "occupied" bay street or wallstreet or somewhere.

 

For the first time since the vietnam war....uh really? Anyway, kids complaining about the war after how many years and the country tired of it too..(kinda like the irac and afghan protests) and political will changes, normally booting out the president at the same time....yeah, the hopey-changey thing worked out real well didn't it....

 

The "oligarchs" who made millions on one issue and saw times changing and then made millions on another issue, then changed YET AGAIN to make millions more...are this time going to "miss the writing on the wall" and suddenly be lost and lose everything......um...yeah..ok...

 

Talk to me in a year and we'll see if we even remember this. (remember how imports were the new rage and domestic muscle cars were dino's?????)

[goinbroke2]

double post

 

 

(I'll blame it those darned rich)

Edited October 18, 2011 by goinbroke2

[grbeck]

The Koch Brothers are libertarians. They take the following positions on various issues:

 

1.decriminalize drugs,

2.legalize gay marriage,

3.repeal the Patriot Act,

4.end the police state,

5.cut defense spending.

 

Yes, they really sound like right-wing Republicans!

 

They are also anti-union, but the idea that unions represent anyone but their members (or, more accurately, union leadership) is a fantasy.

 

Education is worthless if it doesn't result in:

-a better understanding of the issue at hand;

-a better understanding of history;

-at least a rudimentary understanding of economics and taxation.

 

So far, the Occupy Wall Street crowd has shown that being having a degree is not synonomous with being better informed on those issues. Based on their own statements, I have yet to see that Occupy Wall Street members are any better educated or informed than Tea Party members, unless we assume that the liberal position is the educated one. Experience has shown that this certainly isn't the case.

[akirby]

Well thats because the Tea Party is bankrolled and basically run by GOP insiders.

 

My stepmother-in-law is an avid Tea Party organizer in Florida. She is neither a GOP insider or even a Republican and she certainly isn't bankrolled by anybody - it's 100% volunteers.

 

They simply want a smaller, more responsible government with much less government spending and to put that money back into the pockets of the citizens who earned it.

 

The difference is they're actively investigating, supporting and opposing candidates who do or do not support their position. In other words, they're actually doing something instead of grandstanding with useless demonstrations that accomplish nothing.

[grbeck]

Apparently, the ideas that "property is theft" and "we need to redistribute the wealth" aren't quite as attractive when it's your property that is being stolen or redistributed:

 

It’s a den of thieves!

 

Occupy Wall Street protesters said yesterday that packs of brazen crooks within their ranks have been robbing their fellow demonstrators blind, making off with pricey cameras, phones and laptops -- and even a hefty bundle of donated cash and food.

 

“Stealing is our biggest problem at the moment,” said Nan Terrie, 18, a kitchen and legal-team volunteer from Fort Lauderdale.

 

“I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500. Every night, something else is gone. Last night, our entire [kitchen] budget for the day was stolen, so the first thing I had to do was . . . get the message out to our supporters that we needed food!”

 

She obviously isn't too sympathetic to the "Mac-less." What about the whatever percentage who don't have a Mac? Don't they deserve one, too?

 

It's enough to make a protestor sound like a Republican...or at least Dirty Harry Lite:

 

Crafty cat burglars sneaked into the makeshift kitchen at Zuccotti Park overnight and swiped as much as $2,500 in donated greenbacks from right under the noses of volunteers who’d fallen asleep after a long day whipping up meals for the hundreds of hungry protesters, the volunteers said.

 

“The worst thing is there’s people sleeping in the kitchen when they come, and they don’t even know about it! There are some really smart and sneaky thieves here,” Terrie said.

 

“I had umbrellas stolen, a fold-up bed I brought because my back is bad -- they took that, too!”

 

Security volunteer Harry Wyman, 22, of Brooklyn was furious about the thievery -- and vowed to get tough with the predatory perps.

 

“I’m not getting paid, but I’m not gonna stand for it. Why people got to come here and do stupid stuff? All it does is make people not wanna come here anymore,” Wyman fumed.

Edited October 18, 2011 by grbeck

[NickF1011]

“I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500.

 

...says the 18 year old. With wise financial decisions like this, I can't imagine why they are all saddled with debt???

[akirby]

“Stealing is our biggest problem at the moment,” said Nan Terrie, 18, a kitchen and legal-team volunteer from Fort Lauderdale.

 

“I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500. Every night, something else is gone. Last night, our entire [kitchen] budget for the day was stolen, so the first thing I had to do was . . . get the message out to our supporters that we needed food!”[/i]

 

She obviously isn't too sympathetic to the "Mac-less." What about the whatever percentage who don't have a Mac? Don't they deserve one, too?

 

It's enough to make a protestor sound like a Republican...or at least Dirty Harry Lite:

 

Crafty cat burglars sneaked into the makeshift kitchen at Zuccotti Park overnight and swiped as much as $2,500 in donated greenbacks from right under the noses of volunteers who’d fallen asleep after a long day whipping up meals for the hundreds of hungry protesters, the volunteers said.

 

“The worst thing is there’s people sleeping in the kitchen when they come, and they don’t even know about it! There are some really smart and sneaky thieves here,” Terrie said.

 

“I had umbrellas stolen, a fold-up bed I brought because my back is bad -- they took that, too!”

 

Security volunteer Harry Wyman, 22, of Brooklyn was furious about the thievery -- and vowed to get tough with the predatory perps.

 

“I’m not getting paid, but I’m not gonna stand for it. Why people got to come here and do stupid stuff? All it does is make people not wanna come here anymore,” Wyman fumed.

 

They could always just......you know........GO HOME!!!!!!!!

[Ron W.]

5K For a Mac? Hope he kept the receipt cause the insurance company ain't gonna cough up that kind of cash without proof.

[Ron W.]

By the way, good conversation with valid points on both sides.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Ron W.

[RangerM]

...says the 18 year old. With wise financial decisions like this, I can't imagine why they are all saddled with debt???

If that was an 18-yo, you can bet he/she wasn't saddled with the debt on that Mac. No one who's not rich already and spent that much of their own money would be that careless.

 

5K For a Mac?

One of the girls in the office just paid close to that for one. I have no idea what reasonable advantage it affords over a PC that costs half (1/3? 1/5?) as much.

Edited October 18, 2011 by RangerM

[NickF1011]

If that was an 18-yo, you can bet he/she wasn't saddled with the debt on that Mac. No one who's not rich already and spent that much of their own money would be that careless.

 

Meh, you'd be surprised. Do you not remember how careless you were (perhaps about different things, but careless nonetheless) when you were 18? I sure do.

 

One of the girls in the office just paid close to that for one. I have no idea what reasonable advantage it affords over a PC that costs half (1/3? 1/5?) as much.

 

I bought a perfectly functional Windows 7 laptop for $600. Can't see anything an 18 year old would need more for, unless they were a graphic arts major in college or something, and even then you probably wouldn't need anything more until junior or senior year... :shrug:

Edited October 18, 2011 by NickF1011

[akirby]

Meh, you'd be surprised. Do you not remember how careless you were (perhaps about different things, but careless nonetheless) when you were 18? I sure do.

 

When I was 18 I couldn't afford a $5K computer nor could I afford to go sit in a park all day. I was too busy working to pay my own way through college.

[NickF1011]

When I was 18 I couldn't afford a $5K computer nor could I afford to go sit in a park all day. I was too busy working to pay my own way through college.

 

So you were fiscally responsible. I'm sure there are some things (or people :lol:) you did though that you look back on now and say to yourself "What the hell was I thinking?"

[RangerM]

Meh, you'd be surprised. Do you not remember how careless you were (perhaps about different things, but careless nonetheless) when you were 18? I sure do.

Walking the railroad tracks back to campus after getting drunk, then stoned, then going out to Waffle House, then running from the police (on the way back), hiding my car behind an abandoned house, and getting back to my dorm room three hours before a Final Exam?

 

Yup, what was I thinking?

I bought a perfectly functional Windows 7 laptop for $600. Can't see anything an 18 year old would need more for, unless they were a graphic arts major in college or something, and even then you probably wouldn't need anything more until junior or senior year... :shrug:

The HP I have is two years old and still going strong. I'm not a graphical artist, but it certainly does what I need it to.

[NickF1011]

Walking the railroad tracks back to campus after getting drunk, then stoned, then going out to Waffle House, then running from the police (on the way back), hiding my car behind an abandoned house, and getting back to my dorm room three hours before a Final Exam?

 

 

Yeah, I think that would qualify.

[RangerM]

 

Yeah, I think that would qualify.

The bad thing is I got a B on that exam; and subsequently put myself in the mindset that I didn't have to work to make decent grades (in college, high school had already been a joke).

 

It took me two years to climb out of the GPA hole I created for myself because of behavior like that.

Edited October 18, 2011 by RangerM

[akirby]

So you were fiscally responsible. I'm sure there are some things (or people :lol:) you did though that you look back on now and say to yourself "What the hell was I thinking?"

 

Hundreds of them. Like the time I went to the open carport (roof only), walked around behind my dad's car (gorgeous 1974 orange hornet station wagon with plaid seats), jumped in, cranked it, put it in reverse and ran right into my brother's Cougar parked just a few feet behind it. And I walked right between the vehicles to get to the driver's door. To this day I can't believe I did that.