Occupy Wall Street

[retro-man]

I'm a bit surprised to note that there is no thread yet on OWS. I was just reading an item (CNN.com) about the protests in various parts of the world.

 

For a long time - long before the "Great Recession" kicked off - I have been a critic of globalization and financialization. My main criticism is that global corporate and financial institutions shred the sovereignty of the traditional nation-state, and undermine the ability of people to control their own economic future. (surprised to hear that from me?)

 

It occurs to me that the global nature of these protests is validation of that fact. The institutions that are to blame for the current mess are not national or domestic in nature: they are global. They know no national boundaries. They are beyond the democratic control of citizens of the traditional nation-state. Free market globalist apologists will claim that they are controlled by "the market". On the contrary: I believe they control the markets - not the other way around.

 

Interesting to see even Eric Cantor backpedaling on his earlier dismissal of the protesters as a "mob". You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

 

What say you, fellow BONers?

[RangerM]

It's a mixed bag. One that should be held at an arms length (by both sides) until a cogent message becomes apparent.

 

For instance.....

.....I am going to address the issue of this "Occupy Wall Street" fervor that has been sweeping the land like a breath of cleansing air!

 

THE NATIVES ARE GETTING RESTLESS.......finally!

 

I urgently URGE all of you to TAKE PART and JOIN IN when these protests hit your neck of the woods. Produce some flyers......it won't immediately "scare off" some of these scaredy-cats for even looking at our FACTS - for FACTS they ARE!

 

If you are unable to produce your own leaflets - check out the "support" section of our website - there are a LOT of good flyers there to utilize.

 

As I have so often in the past spoke on - the....Working Class - is going PAST, the BOILING POINT, and is quickly reaching ULTIMATE EXPLOSION! THEY want ANSWERS! THEY want RESULTS! All of which this evil corrupt.....SYSTEM is incapable of giving them. WHY? Because its BOUGHT and SOLD to the CORPORATE ELITISTS who are fast turning America into a "South American" style - THIRD WORLD WAGE-SLAVE STATE - (complete with MILLIONS of illegal aliens willing to ACCEPT YOUR JOB for LOW WAGES and NO BENEFITS ) where, currently 3% of the population CONTROL 85% of the nation’s WEALTH! And the "GREAT DIVIDE" is GROWING each and every year that passes.

 

WE - the.....WORKING CLASS - have been LIED TO and totally DECIEVED - just the other day, the system APPROVED THREE MORE so-called "Free-Trade" deals. ALL of which mean that MORE JOBS are going to be SENT OVERSEAS - YOUR JOBS! Don't you CARE? Enough to DO SOMETHING?

 

NOW is the TIME! GET INVOLVED! IT’S YOUR FUTURE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

 

YOU can DO - ONE of TWO THINGS - SUBMIT to the uncaring GREED of these CORORATE, WALL STREET THUGS and their SOCK-PUPPETS in GOVERNMENT. OR, - YOU can RESIST! I CHOOSE RESISTANCE for MY FAMILY and MYSELF!

 

Marching over a cliff,by Steve Davenport

 

The people of the US have let themselves be led by greedy idiots to the edge of a cliff. If something isn't done soon, the.....middle class will simply cease to exist. We're practically there already........

 

.......Our ruling elite have been waging class warfare for quite a while now. Up to now, they've kept it low key, so as not to rile the ignorant masses. Now.......they feel its OK to be brazen about it. The rich are dumping the financial mess on everyone else. They intend to never pay taxes. Certainly not their fair share. Did anyone see any millionaires, or billionaires step up to the plate for the big bank bailout, and offer their mucho bucks to help the nation? No, it was the US govt, the American taxpayer, who got stuck with the check. This is truly outrageous. The American middle class is barely surviving, thanks to the big money types, sending our jobs overseas to......cheap labor (to put it kindly) nations. What nerve. What utter gaul. Then to add insult to injury, they tell us that we need to do away with social programs, as there is no money to pay for them, and pay the national debt, which is now much too high. How can we pay for anything, without jobs?......

 

The.....predator govt/system we have now, is bound and determined to make sure that the......middle class is enfeebled, if not outright eliminated totally. Every opportunity for a decent wage, is being destroyed. Our kids are being left with a world of nothingness to look forward to. Decent wages a thing of the past. It is truly amazing how our rulers don't get it that a consumer nation needs consumers. People need jobs to make money to consume. They talk about creating jobs, but all they need do is NOT give them away. Giving rich people tax breaks, is senseless. Rich people are rich, they need not spend money. They can happily deposit it in banks, and collect interest. Why would they bother creating jobs? How does that really benefit them? We've lived in la la land for too long. We can expect (and should have expected) NOTHING from the rich elite. They have no love for us, nor respect. As far as they're concerned they don't need us, and there is no convincing them otherwise.......

 

.......That TRILLION-DOLLAR BAILOUT to the WALL STREET BANKERS was the LAST STRAW for ANYONE to have to bear! It was SUPPOSED to "FIX THINGS" - just WHAT did it FIX? It’s been BUSINESS as USUAL for the BANKSTERS - while America's.....Workers have FELT the RAMMING and JAMMING, until we have had ENOUGH.

 

Like I wrote at the time - IF that TRILLION had been GIVEN to the PEOPLE - instead of the BANKSTERS, this economy would be FLUSH with cash! In turn, people would have BOUGHT things, and NEW JOBS would have been CREATED - IF, of course this SYSTEM would have INVESTED in AMERICA, instead of INVESTING in their "GLOBAL ECONOMY" of INTERNATIONAL BANKSTERS.

 

.......the "BLINDERS" are finally COMING OFF many Americans! They are SEEING ala the movie "They Live!" - the CRUEL, EVIL ENEMY that CONTROLS America. OUR America! And their ANGER is STIRRING. It’s TIME to FAN those FLAMES! THIS is only the beginning.....

 

Much of what is excerpted above would seem like a typical rant from many of the protesters, except when you consider it was taken from the American Nazi Party website.

[goinbroke2]

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, you wanted a response huh?

In Halifax one protestor was saying he lost his house because the banks let him buy a house for $300,000 when he was only making $10.00 an hour......REALLY? One, how about PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY? Two, How about uh....gee, I make $10 an hour and they're offering me a boing 747....COOL! I'll buy it......oh wait, what do you mean I lost it?

 

This is a bunch of whiney little bitches that won't take responsibility for what THEY have done. WE make choices in life and end up where we are because of OUR choices!

 

Another group of people looking to pass blame onto somebody else because they're not millionaires. (bbbut I worked at mcdonalds and lived in moms basement for two years, I'm still poor because THAT guy is rich)

[grbeck]

It's hard to make a judgment about the movement on a national scale because it has been very decentralized, with no real common, nationwide goal, except for a strong dislike of corporations.

 

The Occupy Harrisburg movement actually took the time to enunciate several policy positions which, while I didn't agree with all of them, were, with one exception, coherent and a starting point for discussion. But some of other Occupy movements have been more about the protest itself, and the positions and rhetoric of these local units have been very extreme and/or downright silly.

Edited October 17, 2011 by grbeck

[NickF1011]

It's hard to make a judgment about the movement on a national scale because it has been very decentralized, with no real common, nationwide goal, except for a strong dislike of corporations.

 

Pretty much where I stand on it. I'm all for their right to peacefully assemble and make a statement, but please, make a statement already. What is it exactly do they want to accomplish? I can't really agree or disagree with them if they don't have a coherent message.

[TomServo92]

I actually caught wind of OWS before it started on twitter and I still don't know what they are trying to say other than they are unhappy. They need a clear message if they expect to effect change.

[cal50]

Why not occupy Hollywood or celebrities homes?

 

I love the people like Michael Moore that speaks out against capitalism yet its the same system he used to make lots of money for himself. I think one of the Baldwin brothers did a cameo appearance at the OWS yet he is the same one that did a Capitol 1 commercial. Its similar to an actor lobbying for the homeless when they have a couple +30,000 square foot homes. They have nothing in common with any factory worker I know or have known.

 

Bill Gates has given millions to charity and still gets slammed as "not good enough", Oprah can give someone a new car and is hailed as a god.

[retro-man]

It's a mixed bag. One that should be held at an arms length (by both sides) until a cogent message becomes apparent.

 

For instance.....

 

 

Much of what is excerpted above would seem like a typical rant from many of the protesters, except when you consider it was taken from the American Nazi Party website.

You went right for the big guns didn't you? As a matter of fact, I happen to pretty much agree with that post. What parts of what they say in there aren't true? Do 3% of the population not control 85% of the wealth? Is the divide not growing larger with each passing year? Did the tax payers not bail out the financial institutions only to see them rewarding record compensation packages and bonuses while unemployment and foreclosures hit the rest of the country at levels not seen since the Great Depression? Did all that not happen?

 

You know, there were valid points in Mein Kampf too for that matter. You might have trouble painting me as a Nazi, given my support for Obama and my interracial marriage - but I am not so phobic about the association that I have to reject out of hand everything they ever did or thought (for instance, I kind of like the Beetle). Just because somebody might realize with horror that the shoe fits, and squeal like a stuck pig when called on it doesn't mean that the criticism is unfounded. If somebody is looking for a cogent criticism, and suggestion of an alternate path, a good place to start is a book I have recommended on here many times: "When Corporations Rule the World" (and make no mistake about it - they do) by David Korten, 1995 Kumarian Press. Not only is it a cogent analysis and critique of our economic system; with 16 years hindsight, it has proved to be amazingly (and tragically) prescient. He cuts no slack for either the Democrats or the Republicans.

 

Korten's bio: MBA and PhD degrees from Stanford University Graduate School of business, faculty member at Harvard University Graduate School of Business, Researcher at Harvard Institute for International Development, Ford Foundation project specialist in Manila, Asia Regional Advisor for the U.S. Agency for International Development, and founder and President of the People-Centered Development Forum. I think it's safe to say he is not naive about economics. grbeck, I read "The Reckoning" a few years back. Your turn.

[retro-man]

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, you wanted a response huh?

In Halifax one protestor was saying he lost his house because the banks let him buy a house for $300,000 when he was only making $10.00 an hour......REALLY? One, how about PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY? Two, How about uh....gee, I make $10 an hour and they're offering me a boing 747....COOL! I'll buy it......oh wait, what do you mean I lost it?

 

This is a bunch of whiney little bitches that won't take responsibility for what THEY have done. WE make choices in life and end up where we are because of OUR choices!

 

Another group of people looking to pass blame onto somebody else because they're not millionaires. (bbbut I worked at mcdonalds and lived in moms basement for two years, I'm still poor because THAT guy is rich)

I am old enough to see long term trends. There are a lot of jobs that used to pay a decent, if not spectacular, living wage, that don't anymore. And I'm not talking about things that have been obsoleted. I'm talking about jobs like grocery store cashier (used to be union, usually not now), sign painter (same), school teacher, construction worker..... all facing downward pressure on wages and benefits. In 30 years the productivity of the US workforce has something like tripled, while the incomes of the bottom 3 quintiles have remained stagnant. Where did all that gain go? Well, the top 1% have seen incomes go up nearly 500% in the past 10 years. Did those people alone all of a sudden get the work ethic and start working 5 times as hard? Have the ones realizing all the gain become literal whirling dervishes of productivity themselves - or has the table become so tilted that they are getting fat off of everybody else working harder and harder? You know the answer to that. Why do you continue to deceive yourself? If the system is incapable of fairly distributing the wealth it creates (I didn't say equally, I said fairly - when the economy overall triples in productivity and the gains all go to the top 1%, I think that is pretty objective evidence of unfairness), then it needs to be changed. That's simple enough. This country was founded on that.

 

The $10.00 / hr. guy who bought the $300,000 house? Yeah, he's a dickwad. But who is the presumption of professional responsibility on: the financial "professionals" making (and bundling and repackaging and leveraging) the loan, or your $10.00 / hr. dickwad? Between those 2, who should have known better? Anyway, I can name several people who aren't $10.00 / hr. dickwads, who have also lost their homes. When the foreclosure rate goes up whatever percent it has gone up between 2006 and now, it is safe to say that there are a large number of regular, responsible, salt-of-the-earth folks, who are just caught up in a shitstorm not of their making.

[retro-man]

Bill Gates has given millions to charity and still gets slammed as "not good enough", Oprah can give someone a new car and is hailed as a god.

So a system that let's a very few people accumulate more wealth than the almighty himself, then dribble (trickle down?) some of it back out like alms for the poor .... that's your vision of a healthy economic system? Bill Gates estimated net worth is $56bn. That's (sorry - I love to do little exercises like this) that's $13,388.00 / hr., 2,080 hrs. / yr. since Christ was born.

[akirby]

So a system that let's a very few people accumulate more wealth than the almighty himself, then dribble (trickle down?) some of it back out like alms for the poor .... that's your vision of a healthy economic system? Bill Gates estimated net worth is $56bn. That's (sorry - I love to do little exercises like this) that's $13,388.00 / hr., 2,080 hrs. / yr. since Christ was born.

 

So what's your solution? All I hear is griping and yearning for yesteryear.

 

Where did Bill Gates get his money? He created a product that millions of people have bought over the years. The rest came from stocks because a whole bunch of people wanted MS stock and that drove up the price.

 

It's no different than movie stars or professional athletes. They make millions per year because people are willing to pay millions to see them perform.

 

I could understand it if we were talking about the financial sector where they seem to push piles of money from one side to the other and skim off the top as they do it. But Bill Gates and Oprah? Seriously?

[TomServo92]

So a system that let's a very few people accumulate more wealth than the almighty himself, then dribble (trickle down?) some of it back out like alms for the poor .... that's your vision of a healthy economic system? Bill Gates estimated net worth is $56bn. That's (sorry - I love to do little exercises like this) that's $13,388.00 / hr., 2,080 hrs. / yr. since Christ was born.

 

More about the evil robber baron known as Bill Gates

[retro-man]

Tomservo - I have mixed feelings about the case of Gates. On the one hand, what you posted is a very noble gesture - and yes, he is doing much good work in Africa and elsewhere. He and his father, Bill Gates Sr. are usually on the side of liberal political and social issues. For example, recently: LINK. I can't fault him for becoming richer than Croesus in a system that allowed him to do so. He did produce something of much more material value (I guess... personally, I was plenty happy and fulfilled before we had computers) than just rearranging others' wealth and siphoning off the top. But the fact remains that all the wealth that flowed to him, could have been left elsewhere in the economy, for others to enjoy and employ - perhaps his programmers, or lower prices for his products, or ....... He, or his company, have engaged repeatedly in highly monopolistic and anti-competitive practices, and have routinely extorted billions of dollars in tax concessions from the people of Washington State, who then have to make up the difference (all of which helps make Microsoft stock so attractive to investors) I don't know the answer to tell you the truth - maybe all income above 100x median should be taxed at 100% (I can hear the cries of Marxist-Leninism now - ok, how about 1000x? - that would be about $40m annually.). Certainly, and at the very least, unearned income should be taxed like any other income. Money that gets reinvested - in plant or research or employment, gets deducted. If he only made $40m / yr., perhaps he still would've been able to contribute to charity. I managed to on barely 1/400 of that. The incomes of the top 10 Hedge Fund managers alone, would be sufficient to create enough minimum wage jobs to lower the unemployment rate to zero.

 

40 - 50 years ago, we used to talk about the world of the future, when automation would make all our lives easier, giving us increased time for leisure, culture, and family pursuits. A future world in which technological and productivity gains would be so unevenly distributed, leaving millions unemployed or underemployed to fend for themselves, and a relatively small number realizing all the gains, was not envisioned.

Edited October 18, 2011 by retro-man

[TomServo92]

I'd be curious to see how much aggregate wealth Bill Gates created in the economy through his products. I read somewhere that the multiplier effect is 3.4 jobs for every Microsoft hire. I suspect (but have nothing to prove it) that Bill Gates has contributed more to the economy than his $58 billion personal worth.

[retro-man]

I'd be curious to see how much aggregate wealth Bill Gates created in the economy through his products. I read somewhere that the multiplier effect is 3.4 jobs for every Microsoft hire. I suspect (but have nothing to prove it) that Bill Gates has contributed more to the economy than his $58 billion personal worth.

It may be that Bill Gates has provided some of the tools for the tripling in productivity that has taken place over the last 30 years (up 400% since 1950). That means nothing if only 1% of society is feeling the benefit.

[napfirst]

It may be that Bill Gates has provided some of the tools for the tripling in productivity that has taken place over the last 30 years (up 400% since 1950). That means nothing if only 1% of society is feeling the benefit.

 

Means nothing to who?....you?..how about all the "people that did benefit?........I see shades of RED in your writing.....

[retro-man]

:pig: :pig: :pig:

 

LINK

 

Check out the source.

 

:pig: :pig: :pig:

[napfirst]

:pig: :pig: :pig:

 

LINK

 

Check out the source.

 

:pig: :pig: :pig:

 

You do know who Sally Kohn is, right? She's a progressive "community organizer" (ever heard that), I would expect no less from her.

[cal50]

So a system that let's a very few people accumulate more wealth than the almighty himself, then dribble (trickle down?) some of it back out like alms for the poor .... that's your vision of a healthy economic system? Bill Gates estimated net worth is $56bn. That's (sorry - I love to do little exercises like this) that's $13,388.00 / hr., 2,080 hrs. / yr. since Christ was born.

 

 

The "system"did not put money in his pocket, an original idea that he produced and marketed did. Gates is in the same category as Steve Jobs that they both produced a product millions of people use. Their idea's also employed many people to produce those products. The people that I find offensive is the Soros types of people. He made his money (obscene money) shorting British currency. He made millions and produced absolutely zero product. This is similar to Wall street types today. Shuffle paper and make millions. This is more of a problem than the Gates or Job's of the world. Either of those guys deserved a Nobel price over someone like Obama who got it for an idea. You can see where his ideas have taken the country. Some ideas are great , produce jobs and wealth.

Other ideas are just that , and idea or ideology that goes no where.

[goinbroke2]

Retro, your line "But the fact remains that all the wealth that flowed to him, could have been left elsewhere in the economy, for others to enjoy and employ " says it all.

 

Using THAT logic, I must be enjoying the billions that was never given to bubba who didn't invent the time machine and didn't employ millions in it's manufacture/use/regulation/etc, right? After all, all the wealth was left in the economy for us to "enjoy and employ" instead of him, right?

 

I agree that some hard working people through no fault of their own have lost their homes. They got caught in something bigger than them and that sucks. What to do now....sit and cry or move on? It would be devastating to lose everything you've worked your whole life for, I understand that, but I'll ask something;

When you see a donald trump who is rich, then find out he's been bankrupt many times, why do you think that is?

Why do some people lose it all and then 2, 5 or 10 years later are back where they were?

Why do "welfare" people, win the lottery or bingo or whatever and regrdless of the amount, are broke in a short time?

 

I refuse to "settle" and be poor. I was poor growing up. It f%^&ing SUCKED! I swore I would never be that way again. I swore my kids would be better off than me.

 

They are.

 

By far.

 

Don't spend more than you make.

Don't put yourself in the position of losing everything.

If the worse case scenario happens, NEVER GIVE UP!

 

The whole thing proves that if you promise something left wing, the lame stream media will be there to cover it. Even when there IS no story! Even when sum total of the movement is "I don't know, man, I'm just pissed off"...... REALLY? THAT is what your "movement" is about? It is an orchestrated "demonstration" by either anarchist's/communist/etc and they are all rallying to each other in their common goal of "hating those who have".

Kinda like when your 5 year old (who you feed/clothe/support in every way) gets mad that your going to the mall and they can't go so they stomp their foot and scream they're MAD! Don't know what about, just...MAD!

 

Well, you know what? I'm mad too!

Mad that I'm paying taxes for welfare bums who are 3rd generation welfare.

 

Mad that I work 50-60hr's a week while everyone around me doesn't have to.(and I'm salary)

 

Mad that although this is the greatest country in the world, people are still pissing and moaning about shit that doesn't really matter.

(complained I didn't have shoes until I saw the guy with no feet)

 

Mad that spoiled brats who have been raised in the last 20 years are causing shit and they have no right to bitch.

 

Mad that people don't recognise all these years of every-kid-gets-a-trophy, and everybody-is-equal has turned this generation of kids into a "ME" generation with a "sense of entitlement"! EVERYBODY IS NOT EQUAL! Some people are better at some things than others, get over it!

 

Maybe I should start a "boohoo, poor me" movement too?

[RangerM]

You went right for the big guns didn't you?

Not really. The point is you don't know what the ultimate agenda (or who) is behind the curtain.

 

It's fine with me if Obama and the democrats want to adopt the Occupy movement as their own. I hope they do. Once the curtain is pulled back, we'll find out what Monte had back there.

Edited October 18, 2011 by RangerM

[TomServo92]

It may be that Bill Gates has provided some of the tools for the tripling in productivity that has taken place over the last 30 years (up 400% since 1950). That means nothing if only 1% of society is feeling the benefit.

 

His entrepreneurship created jobs that might not have existed before.

[RangerM]

You might have trouble painting me as a Nazi...

 

I know you aren't a Nazi, Retro. Nor would I have any interest in accusing you. (No offense intended, see my post above for the point).

 

Here's what I think you (and a lot of other people) are thinking.......

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMBZDwf9dok

 

This is the way the Tea Party got started. Does the Occupy movement hope to get rolling the same way? Perhaps.

 

But after all the shouting, all the griping, all the chanting, all the singing, all the dancing, all the pot smoking, and on and on........the question is ultimately, what do they hope to accomplish? And how does what they're doing now direct anyone or anything toward that goal?

 

The Tea Party is focused, disciplined and has a definitive goal. Can the Occupy movement make that same claim?

 

At this point, the Occupy-ers have little or none of the Tea Party's attributes and the movement could metastasize into anything; which is why it's so foolish for any politician to get near it. But as I said above, I hope Obama does, because I see it as the surest way to drive away independents faster than he already is.

Edited October 18, 2011 by RangerM

[RangerM]

The "system"did not put money in his pocket, an original idea that he produced and marketed did.

It depends upon your viewpoint.

 

From many peoples' perspective, the "system" allowed Gates to KEEP most of the money he made. (what he does with it is a side issue)

[Mark B. Morrow]

I'd be curious to see how much aggregate wealth Bill Gates created in the economy through his products. I read somewhere that the multiplier effect is 3.4 jobs for every Microsoft hire. I suspect (but have nothing to prove it) that Bill Gates has contributed more to the economy than his $58 billion personal worth.

 

 

The same could be said for Henry Ford making the automobile accessable to the great multitude. The businesses that sprung up to service automobiles and the huge demand for other products created by well paid Ford workers. The middle class made the wealthy business owners much wealthier by buying their products. We need more Fordism, more middle class purchasing power, not more tax welfare for the rich.