silvrsvt Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Propaganda or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Propaganda or not? Propaganda? Not to me. I own a new 2012 Focus SEL with the Powershift and this video explains exactly some of the sensations you experience and feel when driving a dual-clutch transmission vehicle. I especially agree with the statement that the transmission gets smoother with use. Mine, at 3,000 miles, drives much different than when it was new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivytractors Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Propaganda? Not to me. I own a new 2012 Focus SEL with the Powershift and this video explains exactly some of the sensations you experience and feel when driving a dual-clutch transmission vehicle. I especially agree with the statement that the transmission gets smoother with use. Mine, at 3,000 miles, drives much different than when it was new. IMHO this clutch may be better than it is made sound. GETRAG -the manufacturer- is a major player in this field. Many of the praised DCT's of higher end cars are made by GETRAG. For an overview of design rationale, current and future use, and features follow My link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) The big problem with this transmission is that it makes a bad first impression for many shoppers, especially those who are not familiar with the technology. And as you can see, this is not easy to explain to anybody who doesn't already know the principles of a manual transmission. As they say, European customers love it...Ford is starting to resemble VW more than Toyota. Edited December 11, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The big problem with this transmission is that it makes a bad first impression for many shoppers, especially those who are not familiar with the technology. It's not just a matter of being familiar with the technology, but also willing to accept what it means. To an owner (or potential one) "The car is working like it is supposed to" when it feels like it is not is not a valid explanation. Blackhorse isn't the first who has reported trading in his Focus here (I can think of at least four) that can't leave a good taste in a customer's mouth. Having had a loaner Fiesta for four days while my Flex was being derattled I don't think I'll ever own a Powershit, at least not this generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Its a hell of a thing to tell owners that some vibration, clicking and shuttering is normal and that it will go away once broke in. Yeah ok. Nobody is going to believe that even though its likely true. Color me unimpressed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Its a hell of a thing to tell owners that some vibration, clicking and shuttering is normal and that it will go away once broke in. Yeah ok. Nobody is going to believe that even though its likely true. Color me unimpressed. Mine had nearly 9000 miles when I got rid of it and the shuddering and rattling was worse, not better, even though Ford was insisting that it is perfectly normal and acceptable. I know that I'm not the only one who experienced the shuddering and rattling that didn't go away like they told us it would. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) Mine had nearly 9000 miles when I got rid of it and the shuddering and rattling was worse, not better, even though Ford was insisting that it is perfectly normal and acceptable. I know that I'm not the only one who experienced the shuddering and rattling that didn't go away like they told us it would. So I take it those software upgardes didn't do anything? Somehow I doubt the quirky behavior of this transmission is going to be resolved with software, it's the nature of the beast. I really want to drive one of these cars to find out for myself...but I have a feelign this is a transmission that is geared toward an entirely different car culture and Focus risks becoming a niche player like VW. Edited December 12, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So I take it those software upgardes didn't do anything? Somehow I doubt the quirky behavior of this transmission is going to be resolved with software, it's the nature of the beast. I really want to drive one of these cars to find out for myself...but I have a feelign this is a transmission that is geared toward an entirely different car culture and Focus risks becoming a niche player like VW. The software update held the car in gear higher into the rpm range thus elminating the annoying low end shift but the car still rattled and still shuddered all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So I take it those software upgardes didn't do anything? Somehow I doubt the quirky behavior of this transmission is going to be resolved with software, it's the nature of the beast. I really want to drive one of these cars to find out for myself...but I have a feelign this is a transmission that is geared toward an entirely different car culture and Focus risks becoming a niche player like VW. Ding ding ding! we have a winner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 IMO, for the US market Ford should have gone with a 6F35 to get the job done and a nice 6-speed manual as an option. Leave the good, reliable wet clutch Powershift with Ecoboost applications where it works fine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So, from what I see, most of the issues seem to be related to the use of dry clutches. Hey, it is the nature of the beast, dry clutches have different engegement and slip characteristics than wet clutches. Dry will always be a little "rougher" and more prone to "stick-slip" in lightly loaded transitions. But the break in could be shortened for the customer, but that would require a few more steps in manufacturing. I do know that Ford does not really accept similar explanations for clutch performance in production equipment they purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) So I take it those software upgardes didn't do anything? Somehow I doubt the quirky behavior of this transmission is going to be resolved with software, it's the nature of the beast. I really want to drive one of these cars to find out for myself...but I have a feelign this is a transmission that is geared toward an entirely different car culture and Focus risks becoming a niche player like VW. I also think this transmission represents a risk to Ford, and also represents one of those areas where FoE's old "if it's good enough for us, it certainly better than you need" mentality is showing. In North America, with excellent, reliable automatic transmissions from Japan and the U.S. and some good RWD boxes from ZF in Europe, customers are in the position of absolutely not caring about the transmission. Or even noticing it, particularly as the number of speeds has increased and calibrations have become more sophisticated. They don't have to be told about the transmission by the manufacturer or dealer except in a few instances where there might be a marketing benefit -- "8-speeds" "CVT" etc. They certainly don't have to be told that they're going to get some vibration, and that "it's normal." Because they don't expect any vibration, clattering, clicks, or whirrs and when they experience them, they think something is wrong with the core mechanicals of the vehicle. They are reminded every day they drive the car. And when you have doubts about the mechanical core of your vehicle and its reliability, then you become less satisfied with the vehicle as a whole and start looking for problems with resulting lower overall satisfaction and reliability reporting. I think on paper Mazda's solution is much better with a small torque converter to get things going smoothly. But Ford determined it was "oh so much better" to cast its fate with FoE and Getrag than to involve Mazda in the future. BTW, I would be very interested to know what the reaction is in Europe to the Powershift, both in Ford and Peugeot applications. I suspect much less harsh. Edited December 12, 2011 by Austin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 6,000 mile Powershift update (my 2012 Focus). For all practical purposes, this tranny now shifts like an ordinary torque converter auto trans. I lent my car to a friend a few weeks back, who knows nothing about cars, and asked her what she thought about my new Focus. She made absolutely no mention of the transmission, even after I told her that it was "different" from an ordinary auto trans. As for me, if given the choice in the future, I'll always opt for a dual-clutch transmission over a torque converter auto trans. I'm that impressed by the dual-clutch tranny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) IMO, for the US market Ford should have gone with a 6F35 to get the job done and a nice 6-speed manual as an option. Leave the good, reliable wet clutch Powershift with Ecoboost applications where it works fine... If it is the case as Austin said with FoE forcing the dry clutch PS on Ford N.A, I wonder why the wet clutch DCT was not forced (decided by FoE) into Ford N.A high out put powertrains? And was the decision by Ford N.A. with the Fiesta to be the fuel efficient leader (magic 40mpg) probably why they went with the Getrag dry clutch, plus cheaper then the traditional auto tranny to produce. And I thought all the development on the dry clutch was done in Livoinia led by Piero Aversa. Edited December 12, 2011 by MKII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So again, what makes the Powershift for the consumer better than an ordinary 6 speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 So again, what makes the Powershift for the consumer better than an ordinary 6 speed? Fuel economy increase, weight savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 6,000 mile Powershift update (my 2012 Focus). For all practical purposes, this tranny now shifts like an ordinary torque converter auto trans. I lent my car to a friend a few weeks back, who knows nothing about cars, and asked her what she thought about my new Focus. She made absolutely no mention of the transmission, even after I told her that it was "different" from an ordinary auto trans. As for me, if given the choice in the future, I'll always opt for a dual-clutch transmission over a torque converter auto trans. I'm that impressed by the dual-clutch tranny. And we seem to keep forgetting that Ford's Powershift gets about 3-5mpg more than conventional auto trans and that is significant. I would think that Ford knew that customers expected exceptional fuel mileage from the new Focus and Ford tried to give it to them. Again, most Cruze models get 23mpg city and the Focus comes in at 27 or 28mpg which is significantly more. When I had a 2006 Focus as company car, I only got about 26mpg in mixed driving. The new one is more like 32mpg or higher. That being said, Ford certainly could have introduced this new trans better on many fronts, but from what I have read the reflashes are significantly improving driver experience with trans. And with select shift, the new trans is a lot more fun also as added bonus than conventional automatic. So I hope Ford doesn't give in and offer a conventional auto on this great handling, great looking compace. Then it would just become another middle of the road compact with mediocre fuel mileage and performance. Might as well buy the mundane, dated, pedestrian, dowdy, appliance, don't look at me Corolla if you want that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Fuel economy increase, weight savings. Also with select shift, more fun as in holding gear longer and operating it more like manual. It also sounds more like manual which adds to the fun qoutient. So you get the best of both worlds....more efficient and more fun. On luxury vehicles, DCT is often a $3,000-$4,000 option. So the Ford DCT is a bargain at about $900. And yes, some drivers of luxury DCT vehicles complain about its action also, but most love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtion Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) Being one with the dreaded shifting and what gear is it in now on start off. I had the latest update done about 4-5 weeks ago. I haven't commented about it till we had some miles and time on the new upgrade. The car now start off in low gear and shifts at a higher rpm and much firmer. You can step down on the gas about half pedal and it jumps down into 3rd gear, sort of like passing gear on the 4 sp automatics, only a little softer... Overall the car runs much better, with only one draw back, and that's the mileage around town, it's about a mile or so off compared to before the reflash..The shudder upon stopping is still there, but we never had the real bad shudder as some have complained on here.. 4700 miles on the Focus at present. Edited December 12, 2011 by fordtion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Mine had nearly 9000 miles when I got rid of it and the shuddering and rattling was worse, not better, even though Ford was insisting that it is perfectly normal and acceptable. I know that I'm not the only one who experienced the shuddering and rattling that didn't go away like they told us it would. The discount, blue light, rental car Corolla really was your best buy by far. Enjoy your many boring, Rip Van Winkle like moments in the thing. Seems like you deserve a vehicle like that. Just stay out of the way of the truly fun cars out there and you will be fine. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97svtgoin05gt Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 The problem here is simply a matter of introducing something new to a group of stubborn, spoiled Americans that as someone else mentioned aren't concerned and don't care to be concerned about their transmissions. Had this introduction been made 20 years ago, probably not an issue. Now, post economic boom the cronic complaining everyday citizen isn't going to respond real positively to this. I need to go check one out so I can get a first hand feel for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 My daughter's first 2012 SEL hatchback had a slight shudder about 1/3 of the time at low speeds. Not bad just noticeable. She totalled that one and the new one has no shudder whatsoever at any speed (with only 120 miles on the odo). I think there are some hardware problems out there on some transmissions that causes the shudder or worse problems. I don't think this is a widespread problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Fuel economy increase, weight savings. Fuel economy on paper is no better. Hyundia is rated at 30/40 with their autos and 6 speed manuals. 29/ 40 on the Elantra. Plus, you dont have to buy some goofy SFE package to get it or sacrifice mileage with the manual. You can argue real world results all you want but this is what is on the sticker. Two reasons come to mind why Ford used this transmission. Weight and cost. Weight does matter but I betcha Ford is not passing along the savings. They are slipping. How can you keep a straight face and tell a potential customer that shuttering, clicking, grinding and what ever else is normal? Fail is all I can say if this is the way it is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Fuel economy on paper is no better. Hyundia is rated at 30/40 with their autos and 6 speed manuals. 29/ 40 on the Elantra. Plus, you dont have to buy some goofy SFE package to get it or sacrifice mileage with the manual. You can argue real world results all you want but this is what is on the sticker. Two reasons come to mind why Ford used this transmission. Weight and cost. Weight does matter but I betcha Ford is not passing along the savings. They are slipping. How can you keep a straight face and tell a potential customer that shuttering, clicking, grinding and what ever else is normal? Fail is all I can say if this is the way it is. However the Elantra uses a 1.8L vesus the Focus' 2.0L and according real world figures the Elantra gets worse mileage than the Focus. Elantra vs Focus 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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