40 MPG!

[akirby]

The owner's manual is very clear. Many many modern engines are tuned to make more power on premium by advancing the timing. The difference is whether the manufacturer chooses to advertise the higher power figures in which case they must "require" premium or whether they use the lower numbers on regular fuel and note that premium fuel is optional and will provide better performance. This happens ALL THE TIME and is common knowledge. Apparently your racing engine background doesn't translate to modern engine design.

 

This has nothing to do with replacement parts - I'm only talking about octane. You were wrong about high octane making fuel burn slower and you're wrong about premium not adding performance to the Focus. Wrong wrong wrong. Please stop before you make more of a fool of yourself.

[kylake]

Chibana, I am impressed!

 

You're are a physicist who is (self described) a driving enthusiast who cares about performance and doesn't care about economy. Since I have a degree in sociology, philosophy, and business I wonder about the reasoning behind why you bought an economy Focus? Is it because you want to push the limits and see if you are better than the engineers that designed the car? Is it because you are on a budget and cannot afford a high performance car (there are cars for about the same price with less economy and more performance) or was it simply your were impressed by the "look" of the car or that the car was American made?

Just curious as to the reasoning behind your purchase as I may be able to apply it in some of my classes.

 

If this was to push the limits of the car I hope you are successful and can give us "all" advice in the future.

[GaryG]

The owner's manual is very clear. Many many modern engines are tuned to make more power on premium by advancing the timing. The difference is whether the manufacturer chooses to advertise the higher power figures in which case they must "require" premium or whether they use the lower numbers on regular fuel and note that premium fuel is optional and will provide better performance. This happens ALL THE TIME and is common knowledge. Apparently your racing engine background doesn't translate to modern engine design.

 

This has nothing to do with replacement parts - I'm only talking about octane. You were wrong about high octane making fuel burn slower and you're wrong about premium not adding performance to the Focus. Wrong wrong wrong. Please stop before you make more of a fool of yourself.

 

Okay, you must have a link to that many, many modern engines are tuned BS because all of my research says premium only prevents pre-ignition and you agreed in this thread. Now you want to spin again! If you can't read the manual that for this vehicle, that it recommends 87 octane, you are a spinning fool. Show me and others a link to this BS you know you're spinning like the others you've done, so we can read them.

 

You responded to my entire post JACKWAGON! I responded to your entire post. You didn't exclude what I said about aftermarket parts, so eat the pie you made because I'm not. Where in the hell do you see higher octane increases performance in this engine? You can't! That's why I call you JACKWAGON! You have no idea about performance! You have no idea about MPG! and for you to suggest anything to me, you are a fool.

[akirby]

Okay, you must have a link to that many, many modern engines are tuned BS because all of my research says premium only prevents pre-ignition and you agreed in this thread. Now you want to spin again! If you can't read the manual that for this vehicle, that it recommends 87 octane, you are a spinning fool. Show me and others a link to this BS you know you're spinning like the others you've done, so we can read them.

 

You responded to my entire post JACKWAGON! I responded to your entire post. You didn't exclude what I said about aftermarket parts, so eat the pie you made because I'm not. Where in the hell do you see higher octane increases performance in this engine?

 

Try to follow me here. I'll type slowly so you can understand it.

 

First, do you understand that advancing the engine timing creates more power? If you don't then we can stop here.

 

What happens when you advance the timing? You increase the chances of detonation. So when you advance the timing you have to run higher octane to prevent detonation.

 

Engines that are only designed for 87 octane aren't capable of advancing the engine timing so they can't take advantage of premium to get more power.

 

Modern PCMs in some vehicles are programmed to advance the timing as far as possible (up to a point) in order to produce more power. You have the option of running regular or premium. You get less power on regular because the timing has to be retarded to prevent knocking (detonation). You get more power on premium because the timing can be advanced due to the higher octane.

 

This is what aftermarket tuners do to increase power. They advance the timing which requires premium fuel but yields a few more HP and sometimes better mileage.

 

And since you probably won't believe me.......

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-08-06-premium-gas-regular_N.htm

 

Stephen Russ, a technical leader in Ford's powertrain operations, says engines in the MKS and Ford Edge were designed to detect whether premium or regular fuel was added to the tank. Ford will roll out the technology on more engines in coming years, he says.

 

Though premium gas is recommended for many models, most will run — with a little less horsepower — on regular gas.

 

http://www.autosite.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/6335

 

 

 

If you still don't get it then I give up. This is modern engine design 101 that even the most basic engine tuner knows.

[GaryG]

Try to follow me here. I'll type slowly so you can understand it.

 

First, do you understand that advancing the engine timing creates more power? If you don't then we can stop here.

 

What happens when you advance the timing? You increase the chances of detonation. So when you advance the timing you have to run higher octane to prevent detonation.

 

Engines that are only designed for 87 octane aren't capable of advancing the engine timing so they can't take advantage of premium to get more power.

 

Modern PCMs in some vehicles are programmed to advance the timing as far as possible (up to a point) in order to produce more power. You have the option of running regular or premium. You get less power on regular because the timing has to be retarded to prevent knocking (detonation). You get more power on premium because the timing can be advanced due to the higher octane.

 

This is what aftermarket tuners do to increase power. They advance the timing which requires premium fuel but yields a few more HP and sometimes better mileage.

 

And since you probably won't believe me.......

 

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-08-06-premium-gas-regular_N.htm

 

 

 

http://www.autosite.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_id_int/6335

 

 

 

If you still don't get it then I give up. This is modern engine design 101 that even the most basic engine tuner knows.

 

I've already stated this very issue in this article. If you can't remember, just read back in this thread to the point I made about the Highlander Hybrid. It's all about the design of the engine.

 

I know all about advancing and retarding the timing and I can see you don't get it. Again, you are in spin overdrive and nothing in the Focus Manual says anything about advancing the timing regarding octane. I've already stated in this thread about the Highlander Hybrid which is designed to run on regular gas, but is also designed to get better MPG and performance with premium gas. The article you provided is about these kinds of engine designs, not the '12 Focus.

 

If you knew anything about advancing the timing, you would know it is to ignite the fuel mixture with the spark plug in advance before Top Dead Center (TDC) on the compression stroke. This allows the burning of the fuel to provide power to the engine and wheels as the piston is pushed down the cylinder after TDC. If you advance the timing to early before TDC, the gas mixture ignites to far before TDC creating a loss of power similar to pre-ignition.

 

The emissions play a big part of engine design and is part of the design of the engine and the recommended fuel. For instance, Ford has a patent on their warm-up strategy in my FEH to reduce emissions. The computer retards the timing to heat up the CAT converter quicker so it can start reducing emissions earlier. Ford also recommends 87 octane in my FEH. I've already said 93 octane reduced my MPG and performance was also lost because they go hand in hand.

 

The '12 Focus 2.0L DI engine was designed to use 87 octane. It is recommended that 87 octane is used in the engine specifications at the Ford site. It was clearly the intentions of Ford Engineers to get the best performance out of 87 octane because that is what the Focus class of buyers want to purchase.

[ClutchTime]

Back to the original point of this thread(if anyone remembers)...

 

Edited July 15, 2011 by ClutchTime

[akirby]

The '12 Focus 2.0L DI engine was designed to use 87 octane. It is recommended that 87 octane is used in the engine specifications at the Ford site. It was clearly the intentions of Ford Engineers to get the best performance out of 87 octane because that is what the Focus class of buyers want to purchase.

 

The owner's manual is VERY CLEAR but for some reason you choose not to believe it. Fine. Move on.

 

Octane recommendations

Your vehicle is designed to use

“Regular” unleaded gasoline with a

pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87.

Some stations offer fuels posted as

“Regular” with an octane rating

below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. Fuels with octane levels

below 87 are not recommended. Premium fuel will provide improved

performance.

 

Edited July 15, 2011 by akirby

[mysticbluebmw]

You really have to love the anonymity of the internet. I've been silently following the discussion here and in other threads on the subject. It's quite obvious with the exception of probably Akirby and limited few others, many here seem to not be as they describe themselves. Some of these opinions that are supposedly based on experience/education are seen here by many that TRULY have the education and experience to have a nice, quiet laugh at home. I won't bother to add my two cents, but suffice to say, Akirby is one of the few to actually base his statements on publicly accessible facts W/O supposition or prejudicial interpretation.

[ClutchTime]

I thought about giving my view on the subject of premium fuel benefits, but decided asking Ford Motor Co. directly was a better use of time. Here's a copy of their e-mail response to me on the subject. Nothing has been changed other than the removal of my personal information. My question to them is at the bottom.

 

 

Hi *****,

 

I am Jane, a representative from Ford. I received your email inquiring about the premium fuel of your 2012 Ford Focus.

 

You have certainly reached the right department and I am more than happy to assist you with this matter.

 

I have consulted our Technical Subject Matter Expert (techSME) with regards to this matter and I was advised that the use of premium fuel is in respect to the quality of the fuel provider. Ford recommends the use of top tier suppliers due to the fact that most premium top tier fuels will include special additives which may or may not be present when using other fuel suppliers. Some of the additives used by top tier suppliers may inhibit the formation of carbon or varnish on the fuel system components and the intake valves and combustion chambers which will improve performance and fuel economy. Fuels lacking these additives can form carbon deposits which rob the engine of power and fuel economy. There would not be any performance gain from using fuel with an octane rating taht is higher than 87 octane and use of fuels less than 87 octane is of course not recommended.

 

Additionally in some cases, the supplier may only include these additives with their higher octane fuels which may provide a benefit when used but not due to the increased level of octane.

 

I hope this information helps and clarifies everything to you.

 

Thank you for writing and have a great day!

 

Sincerely,

Jane

Customer Relationship Center

Ford Motor Company

 

Sometimes e-mail communication does not allow us to gain additional information that may be helpful in responding to your inquiry. Should you feel that we have not adequately addressed your questions, please feel free to contact us via telephone at (800)392-3673 between the hours of 8am and 5pm, local time, Monday through Friday. Hearing-impaired callers with access to a TDD may contact 1-800-232-5952.

 

For online support visit us at: www.customersaskford.com which contains answers to frequently asked questions and links to other key product and service information.

 

Ford Confidentiality:

--------------------

For security reasons, please do not submit any sensitive personally identifiable information, such as credit card numbers, driver license number, SSN, DOB, etc. Thank you.

 

[THREAD ID:1-5UOOLL]

 

-----Original Message-----

 

From: ********************

Sent: 7/14/2011 01:22:50 AM

To:

Subject: Vehicle Service Issues

 

 

Ford Motor Company

Main Topic: VehicleServiceIssues

Your Inquiry: I have a 2012 Ford Focus with the 2.0L GDI 4 cylinder engine rated at 160 hp. I am inquiring about the true meaning of the octane recommendation section in the owner's manual. It states the following:

 

"Octane recommendations- Your vehicle is designed to use“Regular” unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87. Some stations offer fuels posted as “Regular” with an octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. Fuels with octane levels below 87 are not recommended. Premium fuel will provide improved performance."

 

What is meant by "premium fuel will provide improved performance"? By it's placement in the paragraph some think it means premium fuel will provide improved performance over lower than 87 octane regular gas that Ford does not recommend. Others read it just at it's face value that premium gas provides better performance than 87 octane gas that the engine is designed to run on. Also, if this is the case what is the improvement. Which view is correct? Thank you for your time.

Owner: Yes

Vehicle Identification Number: 1FAHP3F2XCL******

[transitman]

Clutchtime, thanks for the clarification. I felt that was the case, but I know better than to try to get between two fighting dogs. My thought was it applies to places like rural North Texas. I drive through there on my way to and from Mpls. and Phoenix. The lowest octane fuel there is 86, which forces you to purchase the slightly more expensive 88 octane to satisfy the minimum 87 rating. I don't know why their octane ratings are different than every other State in the Union, maybe it's a Texas thing, or a farm equipment thing, I don't know.

[akirby]

If that's true then they need to change the OM wording because it's totally misleading. But I'd like to hear it from a Ford engineer not a customer rep.

[GapBoyPCS]

If that's true then they need to change the OM wording because it's totally misleading. But I'd like to hear it from a Ford engineer not a customer rep.

 

The issue seems to be how we put "improved performance" into context. "Ford" wants to define it as general driveability (with better detergents in the gas, etc.). For a vehicle owner, I can read it as you get more power i.e. horsepower and torque.

 

If one reads the improved performance sentence with the blurb about stations having lower octane ratings, then yes use premium because of the higher octane reading. However, because that whole paragraph talks about 87 as being the minimum you need, it's pretty easy to assume that use of premium fuel will increase performance - irrespective of using 87 or lower octane gas.

 

I honestly can't fault anyone who takes either point of view.

[GaryG]

The issue seems to be how we put "improved performance" into context. "Ford" wants to define it as general driveability (with better detergents in the gas, etc.). For a vehicle owner, I can read it as you get more power i.e. horsepower and torque.

 

If one reads the improved performance sentence with the blurb about stations having lower octane ratings, then yes use premium because of the higher octane reading. However, because that whole paragraph talks about 87 as being the minimum you need, it's pretty easy to assume that use of premium fuel will increase performance - irrespective of using 87 or lower octane gas.

 

I honestly can't fault anyone who takes either point of view.

 

Good points, but that paragraph really doesn't say 87 octane is the minimum, it just says "Fuels with octane levels below 87 are not recommended". The key sentence is "Your vehicle is designed to use “Regular” unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87. The word "designed" in my opinion means the vehicle's engine will perform the best with 87 octane. No where does the paragraph suggest a higher octane than 87 will increase performance, but I think some here think it should. I'm not one of those people because I have experienced the opposite in a few Fords I've had a chance to hypermile. My guess is that the same should apply to the '12 Focus, but I'm not willing to conduct that test personally in my sons Focus.

 

akirby, the representative from Ford who was kind enough to respond back to Clutch Time and all of us does not need to be degraded as a customer rep. Jane sounded professional and consulted the Technical Subject Matter Expert (techSME) who may be a top engineer in this field. My review of Jane's e-mail was spot on with everything in my research on this matter. Maybe you should read some links of what I've posted here again:

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Gasoline_Octane_Facts_102902052227_OctaneFacts.pdf

 

All and all except for the dog fight, a lot was learned in this thread!

[akirby]

Good points, but that paragraph really doesn't say 87 octane is the minimum, it just says "Fuels with octane levels below 87 are not recommended". The key sentence is "Your vehicle is designed to use “Regular” unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87. The word "designed" in my opinion means the vehicle's engine will perform the best with 87 octane. No where does the paragraph suggest a higher octane than 87 will increase performance, but I think some here think it should. I'm not one of those people because I have experienced the opposite in a few Fords I've had a chance to hypermile. My guess is that the same should apply to the '12 Focus, but I'm not willing to conduct that test personally in my sons Focus.

 

akirby, the representative from Ford who was kind enough to respond back to Clutch Time and all of us does not need to be degraded as a customer rep. Jane sounded professional and consulted the Technical Subject Matter Expert (techSME) who may be a top engineer in this field. My review of Jane's e-mail was spot on with everything in my research on this matter. Maybe you should read some links of what I've posted here again:

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Gasoline_Octane_Facts_102902052227_OctaneFacts.pdf

 

All and all except for the dog fight, a lot was learned in this thread!

 

Nothing against customer service reps but they don't always have access to engineering details. I don't understand why you think this is so far-fetched. My 2000 Lincoln LS was tuned to run on premium but it ran just fine on regular with the timing retarded too. Cadillac does it as do the imports. It's becoming common. Why do you think luxury brands require premium? So they can advertise the higher power numbers on premium with advanced timing.

[GaryG]

Nothing against customer service reps but they don't always have access to engineering details. I don't understand why you think this is so far-fetched. My 2000 Lincoln LS was tuned to run on premium but it ran just fine on regular with the timing retarded too. Cadillac does it as do the imports. It's becoming common. Why do you think luxury brands require premium? So they can advertise the higher power numbers on premium with advanced timing.

 

Look akirby, you lost the dog fight, octane does not improve performance or MPG unless the engine is designed to do so. Call any Ford engineer or the number provided in Jane's post for the answer you need to change the opinion I've stated,

[GaryG]

You really have to love the anonymity of the internet. I've been silently following the discussion here and in other threads on the subject. It's quite obvious with the exception of probably Akirby and limited few others, many here seem to not be as they describe themselves. Some of these opinions that are supposedly based on experience/education are seen here by many that TRULY have the education and experience to have a nice, quiet laugh at home. I won't bother to add my two cents, but suffice to say, Akirby is one of the few to actually base his statements on publicly accessible facts W/O supposition or prejudicial interpretation.

 

I would think you feel like shit for your statements here!

[akirby]

Look akirby, you lost the dog fight, octane does not improve performance or MPG unless the engine is designed to do so. Call any Ford engineer or the number provided in Jane's post for the answer you need to change the opinion I've stated,

 

You're the one who thought premium burned slower and produced less power which was totally wrong. I based my statement on what the owner's manual said. It's not my fault if the OM was wrong or worded incorrectly.

[a351mus2]

Very understandable that akirby would suspect the Focus advances timing to the edge of knock which will give it more power when running premium fuel.

 

2011+ Mustang GT is well documented as having this technology in the 5.0L TiVCT engine.

2011+ Mustang V6 is not documented as having this technology in the 3.7L TiVCT engine.

2012 Focus is not documented as having this technology in the 2.0L TiVCT engine.

 

All 3 cars above seem to have the same wording in the Owner's manual stating: "Premium fuel will provide improved performance."

 

The two engines pushed as economy engines are rated at their 87 octane HP and gas mileage ... I'd be pretty confident to assume HP increase and gas mileage decreases in all 3 of these engines when running premium fuel.

 

Just no proof on the Focus until someone runs a few dyno runs of regular vs premium in a 2012 Focus.

[GapBoyPCS]

Just no proof on the Focus until someone runs a few dyno runs of regular vs premium in a 2012 Focus.

 

That's dangerous -- the mod bug will bite as soon as the owner sees their dyno run lol

[GaryG]

Very understandable that akirby would suspect the Focus advances timing to the edge of knock which will give it more power when running premium fuel.

 

2011+ Mustang GT is well documented as having this technology in the 5.0L TiVCT engine.

2011+ Mustang V6 is not documented as having this technology in the 3.7L TiVCT engine.

2012 Focus is not documented as having this technology in the 2.0L TiVCT engine.

 

All 3 cars above seem to have the same wording in the Owner's manual stating: "Premium fuel will provide improved performance."

 

The two engines pushed as economy engines are rated at their 87 octane HP and gas mileage ... I'd be pretty confident to assume HP increase and gas mileage decreases in all 3 of these engines when running premium fuel.

 

Just no proof on the Focus until someone runs a few dyno runs of regular vs premium in a 2012 Focus.

 

I've already provided links that supported that higher octane does not improve performance or gas mileage in engines designed for 87 octane. The Ford response is the same from Cluch Time's post from Ford. Akirby just posted I was wrong in posting that the octane was slower in higher octane, but I posted articles he was wrong by articles provided. I tried to settle the argument . Screw you stupid people! I get the best MPG and performance with my Ford vehicle's and the '12 Focus with 87 octane in which it was designed for! Ford said this and I will confirm this.

[akirby]

Akirby just posted I was wrong in posting that the octane was slower in higher octane, but I posted articles he was wrong by articles provided.

 

But the articles you posted were WRONG. Premium is harder to ignite but once ignited it burns the same. Everybody but you seems to know and understand this.

 

I conceded that the 2012 Focus APPEARS to not be tuned for Premium based on Ford's customer service inquiry. But the OM is totally misleading and would lead you to believe it is tuned for premium as are many other vehicles.

 

Have a nice day.

[jgretch44]

can you two stop measuring your *&$%s and allow the rest of us to talk about the actual post, which is great fuel efficiency? I am excited to hear that my new car may reach my goal of 40 mpg on my 60 mi/day commute!

[akirby]

can you two stop measuring your *&$%s and allow the rest of us to talk about the actual post, which is great fuel efficiency? I am excited to hear that my new car may reach my goal of 40 mpg on my 60 mi/day commute!

 

We did - 3 weeks ago.

[GaryG]

We did - 3 weeks ago.

 

Maybe we should gang up on this guy! Just kidding.

[GaryG]

can you two stop measuring your *&$%s and allow the rest of us to talk about the actual post, which is great fuel efficiency? I am excited to hear that my new car may reach my goal of 40 mpg on my 60 mi/day commute!

 

There is no question the '12 Focus can get over 40mpg with that kind of commute. My 19 year old Son is starting to learn the tricks and techniques of hypermiling and has his lifetime MPG average at 33.55 so far and he is about to log close to a 40mpg tank soon:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=garage&displayunits=MPG%28US%29&viewcar=3738

 

He showed little interest at first, but I came up with a plan to motivate him that seems to be working now. I gave him a Scangauge and told him I would give him $5 for every MPG over the combined city/highway EPA of 32mpg. He gives me his gas receipt and the OD readings and I hand him cash. So far he has earned a total of $128 and is learning to save on gas the rest of his life with his new driving habits.

 

Those of you who want to get serious about gas mileage, the members at http://www.cleanmpg.com/ will help you by joining for free. As a member like you are here, you can post and tell them what you drive and your commute and the safe tricks and techniques will flow. I'm a senior member there and have a lifetime MPG average of 53.8mpg in ~30,000 miles with my '09 FEH. It does not matter what kind of vehicle you drive because every vehicle is welcome. All the members are good people and will help you improve your mileage. The owner of the site is the top hypermiler in the World and the nicest person you will meet.