Greek debt default timebomb set to explode mid July?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

EU community have given the Greece money pit (Needs another 12 billion Euro's just to keep it a float, taking the total EU bailout money owed to $110 billion Euro's) the ultimatum if you want our bailout money loans get an 78 billion Euros austerity package in place or you don't get another Euro off us.

 

Greek 2 year bonds are paying out 29% over two years at the moment.

 

 

Greeks are having a vote of no confidence in the government, then they take the vote on putting the EU austerity package in place. If they take the EU bailout money the Greeks will probably burn the government building to the ground. Greeks are up to their eyeballs in government debt, they already have asset stripped the country so massive government job cuts that have already been cut back to the bone will cause rioting in the streets as the Greeks know that with massive layoffs & cutbacks that noway will they be able to pay $110 billion Euro's back as the unemployment skyrockets, tax revenue income gets worse with the economy still in a crap state with not a hope in hells chance of improving thing will get a lot worse & the Greek people sense & know that they have no real way of ever digging themselves out.

 

EU banks must be shitting bricks if the Greeks default on the debt as the contagion will spread to the rest of a already very fragile Europe. Greek banks will collapse go under if they default on payments, a lot of European banks & governments will get hard dragging Ireland & Portugal into default almost instantly followed by Spain & Italy that are also teetering on the edge of collapse.

 

This could cause the collapse of the EU, hit the French hard between the legs where it really hurts if the Greeks default Yeeeeeees. UK taxpayer gets bugger all from the EU except huge tax bills, another tier of expensive EU government to pay for & our industry gets shafted by them.

 

 

 

 

LINK

Edited June 20, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[memphiscbrider]

sounds like they need president obama over there to help them out. hes already done enough to us... err i mean for us

[Ford Jellymoulds]

 

LOL - We don't your commie bastards over here, we are all moving far right now with Cameron whose killing off all our jobs like Thatcher did in the 80's as part of austerity cutback. It's taken us decades to get rid of Labours loonie lefties Blair & Brown who raped our pensions, sold off all our gold to look good.

 

Your $14.3 trillions of debt, somebody said nearer to $100 trillions with social & medicare on CNBC is looking a bit out of control & looking more like Greece with their huge $485 billions of debt.

LINK

 

 

 

Its hitting UK shares & Pensions hard at the moment.

 

 

 

 

DAILY MAIL

Britain could be hit with losses of up to £366billion from the collapse of the Greek economy, it has emerged.

 

The warnings came as the Greek government last night won a vote of confidence in the Athens Parliament, clearing the way for a second bailout to go ahead. The crunch will come next week when the Greeks vote on a £25billion austerity package demanded by the EU before they hand over any more cash.

 

The potential devastation of banks and other City institutions would be equal to 24 per cent of our annual national output, or £14,640 for every family in the UK.

 

 

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1Q16DEKtH

If the Greek people had paid their taxes in the past rather than boast and brag how clever they are at avoiding not paying any tax, then they would have not been in the terrible mess they are in today.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[TStag]

I'm a bit surprised the world markets are so calm about Greece. If they default, it could well cause a second credit crunch as the banking system goes into shock. Spain, Ireland and Italy could also then get into trouble as all lending dries up causing a third banking crisis.

 

At this point we really need the richer Eurozone countries to bail out the poorer ones. It's no different to when Bush bailed out the US banks.... It's unpalatable but it must be done.

[jpd80]

Greece is like the European equivalent of Lehman Brothers,

if it falls then Portugal, Spain and Italy could all fall over.....

[Ford Jellymoulds]

I'm a bit surprised the world markets are so calm about Greece. If they default, it could well cause a second credit crunch as the banking system goes into shock. Spain, Ireland and Italy could also then get into trouble as all lending dries up causing a third banking crisis.

 

At this point we really need the richer Eurozone countries to bail out the poorer ones. It's no different to when Bush bailed out the US banks.... It's unpalatable but it must be done.

 

French are gonna offer Greeks a cheap 30 year loan as they are so up to their neck in deep shit be cause the French stand to lose the most if the Greeks default.

 

Greek people know its big bloated massively overpaid oversized government have no alternative other than to accept the bailout austerity package or face a total collapse of the greek economy & entire Greek banking will collapse instantly. Greek people that work in the private sector are mostly very low paid already have declared all out full blown civil war if the package gets passed as they see children not born yet will be saddled with 30 years of debt & know it won't solve any problems they know their government will need another bailout 12 months down the road.

 

Your right if Greece fails then all the weak economies fall like a pack of cards Ireland will fail default next which in turn could hit the UK who have loaned the Irish $100's of billions to help keep them afloat it will hit banks & hurt the bond markets big time. French 30 year cheap loans might put

put the Greek debt problem on hold for 12 month buy a bit of time by just pushing the problem further down the line for another Greek to face - Greek people seem to sense that French loans won't fix anything just add more to their massive debt mountain.

 

First big protest against UK austerity cutbacks starts here on the 30th when just a few of the government public unions & 750,000 Brits go out on strike, cars trains & planes will be hit hard come to a standstill, it won't be long before all 3.5 million British public start the first National Strike since the great depression of the late 1920's.

 

UK Public sectors workers feel they are being being made the scapegoat for failed banks, big bank bailouts who now have pay with it with pay cuts, huge job cuts & huge cutbacks in pension whilst Bankers walk away totally unscathed with zero pain to them. Some would say we can no longer can afford big bloated governments in the west now most of what used to be our manufacturing base now operates out of China.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDvs1vgA5ZQ&feature=related

Edited June 28, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[sprinter]

Do you all think the largest debtor nation with over $14 trillion in liabilities can 'skate through' this with out missing a beat? Our country's debt is almost 3 times greater than the next on the list. For the amount owed, Greece is not even in the top 10.

[retro-man]

jubilee

[jpd80]

Do you all think the largest debtor nation with over $14 trillion in liabilities can 'skate through' this with out missing a beat? Our country's debt is almost 3 times greater than the next on the list. For the amount owed, Greece is not even in the top 10.

The difference is capacity to pay and also ability to increase borrowings,

the US is heads and shoulders above any other country in those two areas...

 

Greece has limited capacity to repay and without EU support will fall over,

the US can continue to trade on and manage its debt....albeit a huge one.

[retro-man]

Free olives and Feta for everybody for 100 years! Get crackin'!

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Greece is like the European equivalent of Lehman Brothers,

if it falls then Portugal, Spain and Italy could all fall over.....

 

What l can't understand is governments all around the world said never again will we allow the Sub-Prime mess to ever happen again JPD.

 

Yet now Governments are going to themselves with the banks are going lend some of the most poisonous toxic sub-prime loans out to the Greeks that have not got a hope in hells chance of ever paying back, now millions face the dole queue as part of the austerity package terms & conditions of getting the toxic loans.

 

The private sector in Greece will be unable to absorb such huge job losses, it will just make things a lot worse as a knock-on private companies feel the pinch they in turn will close down as folk stop spending because they have lost their jobs & those in work will feel the pinch as their taxed to death to pay for bailouts, tax revenue is going fall off the cliff & unemployment social security costs will skyrocket & Greece will default like on its sub-prime toxic loans & like you say JDP it will become another banks & governments Lehmans Brothers crisis but on a scale 10 times worse.

 

Talk about practice what you preach JPD hypocrite governments in Europe will be wrapped up in their own sub-prime toxic loans scandal sometime in the put off future, its gonna explode in their faces.

Edited June 30, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Edstock]

the banks are going lend some of the most poisonous toxic sub-prime loans out to the Greeks

Jelly, "sub-prime" is a buzzword that gets used incorrectly many places, like here. "Sub-prime" really refers to dubious mortgages. These bank loans may be below the prime lending rate charged by EU banks to other customers, and in that sense, yes, they are sub-prime, to give the Greeks a chance to pay them off because of the lower interest rate, but in the general sense, they are not sub-prime, like all those US garbage mortgages.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Do you all think the largest debtor nation with over $14 trillion in liabilities can 'skate through' this with out missing a beat? Our country's debt is almost 3 times greater than the next on the list. For the amount owed, Greece is not even in the top 10.

 

Lets hope you raise your debt ceiling soon why do you always leave it until the very last second of the 23 hour before you act on it? Some say you will go from a AAA to a D economy overnight which would drag the worlds economy down with you as well. Some are already saying they will drop drop US credit rating to D if you default.

LINK

 

 

 

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Jelly, "sub-prime" is a buzzword that gets used incorrectly many places, like here. "Sub-prime" really refers to dubious mortgages. These bank loans may be below the prime lending rate charged by EU banks to other customers, and in that sense, yes, they are sub-prime, to give the Greeks a chance to pay them off because of the lower interest rate, but in the general sense, they are not sub-prime, like all those US garbage mortgages.

 

 

Greeks like a low paid American wanting to get on the housing ladder have not got a hope in hell of paying back those so called easy to payback 30 year mortgages sorry loans to the French, French banks will collapse with the Greeks banks as well when the Greeks default again within the next year or two as the Greeks austerity package kicks in brings the Greek economy to a standstill millions lose their jobs like Americans who could not keep up the payments on mass suddenly they can't afford to pay back their French sub-prime mortgage, then watch the deck of cards fall one by one in Europe.

 

If the US was default on their debt ceiling or Peak Oil graph starts to plunge they would be into Canada take it over steal your resources in a instant Ed as well, its only a matter of time. You only got Trim with his bow and arrow to defend yourselves with.

 

 

 

Mac's View - 'Aaaah Goodbye strike ridden Britain for a few days, hello Athens!'

Edited June 30, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[sprinter]

The difference is capacity to pay and also ability to increase borrowings,

the US is heads and shoulders above any other country in those two areas...

 

Greece has limited capacity to repay and without EU support will fall over,

the US can continue to trade on and manage its debt....albeit a huge one.

 

Nobody is buying our debt anymore except the Federal Reserve.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

It looks like the French & Germans who look likely to lose the most are just going to kick the Greek debt can down the road for a very short period of time..

 

But Greece are definitely not Europe's Lehmans's - That is Spain - But Greece is Europe's Sub-Prime borrower. By 2010 Greece had managed to amass a total debt of $494 billion or 155pc of its national income.

 

That equates to a debt of $43,628 for every Greek man, woman and child, in a country where the average wage is only $29,000 per annum. There is no way it can possibly pay back this debt, no matter how many bailouts are thrown at it.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[retro-man]

You only got Trim with his bow and arrow to defend yourselves with.

 

 

 

 

 

go away.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

 

 

 

go away.

 

LOL

 

Looks like they have Weapons of Mooose Destruction hidden in Trims Hut Tony Blair...

[silvrsvt]

Lets hope you raise your debt ceiling soon why do you always leave it until the very last second of the 23 hour before you act on it?

 

Its all Political posturing...annoying

 

 

[Mark B. Morrow]

One of Greece's bigest problems is a long history of rampant tax evasion.

 

One of the core issues at the heart of the Greek financial crisis is the enormous reluctance of the Greeks to pay tax. It's been estimated that the so-called shadow or black economy in Greece represents at least 30% of gross domestic product.

 

Average tax payments in Greece should, if tax were paid, be more than 30% of average income. So, when Greece's current deficit is running at just over 13% of its GDP it's easy to see that if 30% tax was collected on the 30% shadow economy, then the deficit would fall to about 4% of GDP overnight

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/2010/05/14/greece-taxes-debt-opinions-contributors-richard-murphy.html

 

 

Athens: In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

 

“There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year,” Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. “You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income.”

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

[Roadtrip]

"One of Greece's bigest problems is a long history of rampant tax evasion."

 

This may come as a surprise, but one of the consequences of too-high tax rates is tax avoidance (like the underground economy cited above) and "rampant tax evasion."

 

Liberals love to recount the 94 percent marginal tax rate on top income earners during the late 1950s, but the truth is, no one actually paid taxes at those rates. Even back then, the U.S. tax code afforded top income earners plenty of loopholes that they could -- and did -- use to avoid taxation at such an unconscionable rate.

 

Irrespective of fluctuating tax rates since WWII, tax revenues have held at a relatively stable 18.5 percent of GDP. That is a fact.

 

Raise tax rates all you want, and raise taxes on the rich if it makes you feel good. But history demonstrates that when you raise taxes too much, people will find ways to avoid paying them. And thanks to the absurdly complex U.S. tax code, it's a sure bet that people will find innumerable ways to do just that.

 

Most people -- rich or poor -- will jealously guard the fruits of their labor. It's just human nature.

 

Most people -- if they are patriots -- do not mind paying a reasonable sum for funding their government, provided that their government is accountable, efficient, and providing for national security, and otherwise doing its job as set forth in the Constitution.

 

What most people -- rich or poor, patriotic or not -- will not stand for is extending the fruits of their labor to corrupt, inept, kleptocratic, deceitful, narcissistic, incompetent, and inefficient governance. Which is exactly what our tax dollars are paying for!

 

The point is, I don't think most Americans would mind paying a little more in taxes if they felt that the money would be spent efficiently and effectively. Problem is, most informed people are too jaded after the TARP bailout and the Obama stimulus plan that, he assured us, was gonna keep unemployment below eight percent. As the saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." After this, there is no sound reason that raising taxes will result in increased revenue to the government. Very few people trust the government custodians of taxpayer dollars to spend those dollars efficiently, so they will do whatever it takes to avoid paying taxes. Thanks to human nature, and thanks to a dysfunctional government.

 

Go ahead. Tax, tax, and tax away. And watch that capital fly away. And then watch the jobs go bye, bye.

 

The best prospect for increased tax revenue and reducing the national debt is to implement policies that encourage economic growth. Only with growth comes increased tax revenue.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Roadtrip

[Ford Jellymoulds]

One of Greece's bigest problems is a long history of rampant tax evasion.

 

One of the core issues at the heart of the Greek financial crisis is the enormous reluctance of the Greeks to pay tax. It's been estimated that the so-called shadow or black economy in Greece represents at least 30% of gross domestic product.

 

Average tax payments in Greece should, if tax were paid, be more than 30% of average income. So, when Greece's current deficit is running at just over 13% of its GDP it's easy to see that if 30% tax was collected on the 30% shadow economy, then the deficit would fall to about 4% of GDP overnight

 

 

http://www.forbes.co...ard-murphy.html

 

 

Athens: In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

 

"There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year," Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. "You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income."

 

http://www.nytimes.c.../02evasion.html

 

There is the truth Mark. Greeks love to boast how much tax they have avoided paying.

 

Just wondered are there any States in the US on the brink of a bailout close to bankruptcy , how do you deal with it Stateside?

 

Portugal are next they have gone cap in hand to the EU for bailout money 2, l wonder when these never ending bailouts will stop?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds

[retro-man]

"One of Greece's bigest problems is a long history of rampant tax evasion."

 

This may come as a surprise, but one of the consequences of too-high tax rates is tax avoidance (like the underground economy cited above) and "rampant tax evasion."

 

 

No, Mark had it right: Rampant tax avoidance is the result of an endemic culture of corruption LINK, not of too high tax rates. Look at Sweden. Think things through man, before you give out what passes for analysis on Fox News. Greece scored 4.6 (0 being absolutely corrupt, 10 being no corruption whatsover), Sweden scored 9.3, the US scored 7.2 (new record low, despite the Bush tax cuts - must be "the new entitlement" e.g. "mine mine mine" kicking in). Canada scored 8.7, Australia scored 8.8, the UK scored 8.6 (and they all have higher taxes than we do, as you well know). There are multiple different studies for this, and they all give roughly the same result.

 

Here: LINK This chart gives tax revenues (aggregate from all sources, Federal, State, and Local, income, sales, VAT, tarrifs - whatever) as a percent of GDP. As you can see, the US is much lower on the list than the average for OEDC, at about 28% - not the half that Fox News has been putting in your head (information from The Tax Foundation - conservative anti-tax watchdog group - agrees with this figure). Mind you, if we were taxing what the government is spending, we'd be at about 32% or so, with no deficit; still considerably lower than the 36% average for OEDC. The much less corrupt Scandinavian countries are taxed much more heavily than us - all the way up to roughly 50% (Fox News territory!) for Denmark.

 

"Starving the Beast" since 1980. Yay, we're going all the way back to the days of the Founding Fathers! Dont worry, we'll fit 'ya with some wooden choppers when your teeth go, and this time the slaves will be called "human resources".

Edited July 6, 2011 by retro-man

[RangerM]

......the US scored 7.2 (new record low, despite the Bush tax cuts - must be "the new entitlement" e.g. "mine mine mine" kicking in).

Actually Retro, in 2010 the US scored a 7.1 under President Obama, as shown in the most recent data. I'd attribute that to the "crony capitalism" experienced in the stimulus, bailouts, and Obamacare waivers. Your opinion?

 

I'm not sure the relationship between "corruption" and the level of taxation. I don't think anyone could argue that the the former USSR was less corrupt than the US, and its taxation was (theoretically) 100%.

 

Consider the recent actions by the Obama Administration regarding the Boeing plant in South Carolina. The NLRB has filed a complaint to retaliate (against a perceived slight to the union) and stop the transfer of production, within the Continental United States. If Boeing had moved that facility to Mexico, there'd be no complaint and there's nothing the NLRB could do about it. Is that legalized "corruption", or just merely unfairness?

 

Here's one for you, Retro........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4o0kVX7iNc

 

Is this something for "reasonable people" or just propaganda? From my point of view, the demonization of "the rich" is no different than what is portrayed in the cartoon regarding the Axis.

Edited July 6, 2011 by RangerM

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Biggest problem for the US is high unemployment (24 million people are unemployed, underemployed or marginally employed the economic stimulus has failed to bring it down?) its not coming down fast enough & the inability to pay down the national debt, which will in turn force Helicopter Ben to print a lot more money with QE3 before the next election which will in turn cause bigger & bigger debt ceilings which at some point will become unsustainable.

 

Nobody seems to be bold enough to want to create 21 million proper jobs or tackle the huge ever growing debt mountain in the US for fear of making themselves unpopular.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Ford Jellymoulds