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#1 OFFLINE   sprinter

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:22 AM


Edited by sprinter, 05 May 2011 - 09:23 AM.

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“One thing to realize about our fractional reserve banking system is that, like a child’s game of musical chairs, as long as the music is playing, there are no losers.”
Andrew Gause, Monetary Historian

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson

“The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight-of-hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in inequity and born in sin... But if you want to continue to be slaves of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit .” Josiah Charles Stamp

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” Henry Ford







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#2 OFFLINE   Mark B. Morrow

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 02:09 PM

http://www.foxbusine...ollar-strength/

So the price of oil on the world market plunges to below $100.00 /bl. It isn't that anyone suddenly started producing more (nor was the rise in prices due to anyone producing less). It is the speculative commodities market making bets on the future price someone will pay.

Here's the answer to the bogus Brazilian Oil Claims now being reprated in TV ads all over the country.

http://www.factcheck...ian-oil-claims/

Edited by Mark B. Morrow, 05 May 2011 - 02:09 PM.

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#3 OFFLINE   Deanh

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 02:19 PM

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/05/05/oil-plunges-demand-concerns-dollar-strength/

So the price of oil on the world market plunges to below $100.00 /bl. It isn't that anyone suddenly started producing more (nor was the rise in prices due to anyone producing less). It is the speculative commodities market making bets on the future price someone will pay.

Here's the answer to the bogus Brazilian Oil Claims now being reprated in TV ads all over the country.

http://www.factcheck...ian-oil-claims/

Mark , I see someone accused you of being a fake attourney...so it WAS you I saw in Madam Tussauds.....as an exhibit....LMAO!
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#4 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 02:41 PM

So the price of oil on the world market plunges to below $100.00 /bl. It isn't that anyone suddenly started producing more (nor was the rise in prices due to anyone producing less). It is the speculative commodities market making bets on the future price someone will pay.


You have to look at the whole picture.

The DJIA is down over 150 points (today at 3:40 PM Eastern), and new jobless claims are at an 8-month high (most recent report). Expected demand can have influence on the price just as expected supply can.
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#5 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 10:54 AM

U.S. households spent nearly 9% of their total income on gas last month
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

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#6 OFFLINE   grbeck

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 12:19 PM

U.S. households spent nearly 9% of their total income on gas last month


The larger picture is that the rush of developing nations to improved standards of living is going to increasingly drive oil prices, which means gasoline prices will be more volatile. We will simply have to be more careful of how we use gasoline, and take that into account when making a major purchase. It's not the responsibility of any president to ensure our ability to commute to work in an F-150 or Suburban.

(Given that fact, I'm amused that many liberals and Democrats who were blaming George W. Bush for higher gasoline prices a few years ago have suddenly discovered how world oil markets really work.)

Higher prices do encourage conservation over the long run, which is a good thing. I'd rather have conservation encouraged by market forces, as opposed to having the government enact dumb, largely cosmetic measures like the 55 mph speed limit or CAFE so that it looks as though it's "doing something."

Edited by grbeck, 06 May 2011 - 12:21 PM.

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#7 OFFLINE   Ralph Greene

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 03:31 PM

I don't consider myself a liberal, but I've changed my mind over the past few years about what we need to do, as a nation, to reduce our need to import fuel. As noted above, we are not the drivers of demand anymore, and sure don't control supply.

So I favor gradually phasing in a big gasoline tax, to reduce demand, and to force fuel conservation. By doing that, fuel prices might actually decline at the pump, you might not notice the tax increase.

The bigger question I'm not comfortable with, is how to make our congress use the money wisely. Our national infastructure could use it, as an example.

I know this is not a popular view on this forum, but many car people favor this idea, and I haven't seen a better idea to reduce demand. The current high cost of gasoline is a "tax" on our economy, and a transfer of our wealth to foreign countries. At at least with an increased US fuel tax, reducing demand and pump prices, this tax would stay in our country for our use.
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#8 OFFLINE   xr7g428

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 07:20 PM

Ralph you are a liberal, it just makes you sound foolish when you give us that BS about changing your mind. Spare the BS, just state your opinion.

Artificially raising the coast of fuel will raise the cost of EVERYTHING. Even a simpleton can predict that. Is that what you really want? No, you are just pushing the liberal agenda to have government take over increasing large segments of business and society and the economy. The gasoline tax already far exceeds the profits made by any body else that actually produces delivers or sells the stuff. Mostly you just see this as a way to give enven more power and money to your friends in Washington.

Raising the tax here reduces total demand, (at the expense of our economy) and give China an additional competitive benefit of having cheaper energy as well as cheaper labor. Think, for once, about the consequences of government meddling in the economy...
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#9 OFFLINE   retro-man

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 07:56 PM

On a weighted average of 100 worldwide, US gas price is at 77. There are some very successful economies that have gas prices far higher than ours. Not saying we should pile taxes on - just pointing that out.

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#10 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 08:09 PM

On a weighted average of 100 worldwide, US gas price is at 77. There are some very successful economies that have gas prices far higher than ours. Not saying we should pile taxes on - just pointing that out.

Posted Image


Retro, would a mild gas tax be out of line for the US, something like 50 cents a gallon
that goes straight to deficit reduction?

I know tax can be inflationary but maybe that has the added benefit of stimulating
the economy through higher prices or would that create some form of stagflation?

Edited by jpd80, 06 May 2011 - 08:10 PM.


#11 OFFLINE   Ralph Greene

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 09:01 PM

Ralph you are a liberal, it just makes you sound foolish when you give us that BS about changing your mind. Spare the BS, just state your opinion.

Artificially raising the coast of fuel will raise the cost of EVERYTHING. Even a simpleton can predict that. Is that what you really want? No, you are just pushing the liberal agenda to have government take over increasing large segments of business and society and the economy. The gasoline tax already far exceeds the profits made by any body else that actually produces delivers or sells the stuff. Mostly you just see this as a way to give enven more power and money to your friends in Washington.

Raising the tax here reduces total demand, (at the expense of our economy) and give China an additional competitive benefit of having cheaper energy as well as cheaper labor. Think, for once, about the consequences of government meddling in the economy...


And your idea is??????

How do you know phasing in a (say) .50 gas tax will increase the price at the pump of gasoline? We now see demand destruction around the $4 level. If part of that $4 was added tax, what would be the problem? Especially if the tax was earmarked for road and bridge maintenance.

BTW....I would also do away with the ethanol subsidy. I don't mind using E10 in my cars (but hate it for my lawn equipment), but don't understand why we subsidize it. Brazil W/B happy to sell us ethanol cheap....if the market wants it.
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#12 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 09:23 PM

Retro, would a mild gas tax be out of line for the US, something like 50 cents a gallon
that goes straight to deficit reduction?

I know tax can be inflationary but maybe that has the added benefit of stimulating
the economy through higher prices or would that create some form of stagflation?

If you take $1 out of someone's (or some company's) pocket, that is $1 less available for consumption or capital investment.

You can take a $1 from Peter to pay Paul, but Paul will always get less than $1 because the cost of doing government's business removes it.

And any time you add another overhead cost to society (like the expansion of government) the more you lower the overall amount of discretionary income.

Edited by RangerM, 06 May 2011 - 09:32 PM.

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#13 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 09:26 PM

And your idea is??????

How do you know phasing in a (say) .50 gas tax will increase the price at the pump of gasoline? We now see demand destruction around the $4 level. If part of that $4 was added tax, what would be the problem?


Problem is, a $0.50 gas tax would be part of the $4.50, not $4.00.

You don't stimulate an economy by removing that fuel (ie. money) that it runs on.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#14 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 09:50 PM

Problem is, a $0.50 gas tax would be part of the $4.50, not $4.00.

You don't stimulate an economy by removing that fuel (ie. money) that it runs on.


It forces the consumer to be more efficient with choices made,
hitting everything touched by transport including goods and food....

Edited by jpd80, 06 May 2011 - 09:50 PM.


#15 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 09:59 PM

It forces the consumer to be more efficient with choices made,
hitting everything touched by transport including goods and food....

I suppose driving up the cost of everything to where the average consumer can only affort Malt-o-meal instead of Cheerios might be a good thing to some, but I don't think so.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#16 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 10:12 PM

U.S. households spent nearly 9% of their total income on gas last month

The larger picture is that the rush of developing nations to improved standards of living is going to increasingly drive oil prices, which means gasoline prices will be more volatile. We will simply have to be more careful of how we use gasoline, and take that into account when making a major purchase. It's not the responsibility of any president to ensure our ability to commute to work in an F-150 or Suburban.

(Given that fact, I'm amused that many liberals and Democrats who were blaming George W. Bush for higher gasoline prices a few years ago have suddenly discovered how world oil markets really work.)

Higher prices do encourage conservation over the long run, which is a good thing. I'd rather have conservation encouraged by market forces, as opposed to having the government enact dumb, largely cosmetic measures like the 55 mph speed limit or CAFE so that it looks as though it's "doing something."

Another piece of the mosaic......

The House passed a bill to force the administration to sell offshore drilling permits in the Gulf of Mexico and off the Virginia coast, and the price of oil fell 8.6% in one day, the largest drop in over two years!

Coincidence perhaps? All things are considered by speculators.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#17 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 11:39 PM

I suppose driving up the cost of everything to where the average consumer can only affort Malt-o-meal instead of Cheerios might be a good thing to some, but I don't think so.


You'd think that reducing a deficit of over $14 trillion was way more
important than choosing which snack food to buy but here we are....
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#18 OFFLINE   retro-man

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 02:34 AM

I'll also add that, looking at the "green" zones on that gas price map (areas where gas is cheaper than in the US), most of them are shit holes. (Is that too strong a term?)

Most people who complain the loudest about deficits don't really want to do what it would take to pay them off. Ranger, I think you overstate the case that gubmint money disappears into a black hole without benefit to the economy. I don't consider pothole free roads, sound bridges, potable tap water, halfway credible police protection, and the education my kids got boondoggles. I don't consider the follow-on consumer and tax spending by the people who provided them to be without value to the economy. No-bid contracts for Halliburton in a hostile, backwards country on the other side of the world wrecked in a ginned up war? Maybe.
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#19 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:34 AM

I'll also add that, looking at the "green" zones on that gas price map (areas where gas is cheaper than in the US), most of them are shit holes. (Is that too strong a term?)

I was going to object to the term "most"........

Most people who complain the loudest about deficits don't really want to do what it would take to pay them off. Ranger, I think you overstate the case that gubmint money disappears into a black hole without benefit to the economy. I don't consider pothole free roads, sound bridges, potable tap water, halfway credible police protection, and the education my kids got boondoggles. I don't consider the follow-on consumer and tax spending by the people who provided them to be without value to the economy. No-bid contracts for Halliburton in a hostile, backwards country on the other side of the world wrecked in a ginned up war? Maybe.

I think the Government needs a Ford styled reformation:
- Right size Government to true constituent need in terms of tax, spending and personnel.
- Start paying down that debt.
- Treat tax payers like customers and provide better service.

Surely eliminating that debt is going to save huge amounts of interest that would otherwise line a lending institution's pockets, that money could go towards paying for social programs that benefit all citizens and improve everyone's lives.

Not meaning to sound too liberal but both sides of politics should be working on this problem for the good of the country.

Edited by jpd80, 07 May 2011 - 03:34 AM.

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#20 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 08:13 AM

Ranger, I think you overstate the case that gubmint money disappears into a black hole without benefit to the economy.

The "gubmint" is not a black hole, but it is an overhead cost.

In your professional life, you don't simply decide to purchase a new drafting table-even if it's an improvement over the old one--unless you must or it provides such an advantage that the cost-to-benefit ratio makes sense.

You also don't decide to hire someone, move to a new office, or go on a sales trip without considering the same thing.

No-bid contracts for Halliburton in a hostile, backwards country on the other side of the world wrecked in a ginned up war? Maybe.

Apparently, you and I agree that this aspect (cost-to-benefit) is NOT considered with a myriad of government functions. We may just not agree on which ones are boondoggles.

I don't consider pothole free roads, sound bridges, potable tap water, halfway credible police protection, and the education my kids got boondoggles. I don't consider the follow-on consumer and tax spending by the people who provided them to be without value to the economy.

Can you find anyone who believes that those things aren't important? It's a matter of priority. But the order of those priorities may differ between us. That's why you live in a State that prioritizes its money differently than I do. How about we agree to keep it that way?

Taxing someone and giving it to someone else (or spending it) has a cost. Those 106,000 Federal IRS employees don't work for free. Many of their functions are mimicked at the State level, as well. And I'm sure you'd agree with me that while the IRS performs a function, it produces nothing of value (in a literal sense) to you or I (unless pamphlets are your thing). The dollar the IRS takes in is reduced by the amount it costs to run the IRS. And every dollar distributed by the IRS is further diminished by the overhead costs of whatever agency implements whatever program. And on, and on.

Overhead costs are just that, costs.

If you want your priorities met in a given order, then you and your fellow Seattleites (Washingtonians) should decide that and pay for them in that order. So long as you want to force the "red" states to adopt the "blue" states' point of view, this argument will never end. Hell, even the blue states don't agree with each other's priorites (same as the red states). With so many points of view, does it really make sense to have a one-size-fits-all policy? I guess it does if you're the one deciding it, but what if I am?

Now as far as the price of gas, how much is profit for the greedy oil company and how much is tax? (Source)
Posted Image

The actual tax varies....
Posted Image

Edited by RangerM, 07 May 2011 - 01:17 PM.

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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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