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http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/05/05/oil-plunges-demand-concerns-dollar-strength/

 

So the price of oil on the world market plunges to below $100.00 /bl. It isn't that anyone suddenly started producing more (nor was the rise in prices due to anyone producing less). It is the speculative commodities market making bets on the future price someone will pay.

 

Here's the answer to the bogus Brazilian Oil Claims now being reprated in TV ads all over the country.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/bogus-brazilian-oil-claims/

Edited by Mark B. Morrow

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http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/05/05/oil-plunges-demand-concerns-dollar-strength/

 

So the price of oil on the world market plunges to below $100.00 /bl. It isn't that anyone suddenly started producing more (nor was the rise in prices due to anyone producing less). It is the speculative commodities market making bets on the future price someone will pay.

 

Here's the answer to the bogus Brazilian Oil Claims now being reprated in TV ads all over the country.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/bogus-brazilian-oil-claims/

Mark , I see someone accused you of being a fake attourney...so it WAS you I saw in Madam Tussauds.....as an exhibit....LMAO!

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So the price of oil on the world market plunges to below $100.00 /bl. It isn't that anyone suddenly started producing more (nor was the rise in prices due to anyone producing less). It is the speculative commodities market making bets on the future price someone will pay.

 

You have to look at the whole picture.

 

The DJIA is down over 150 points (today at 3:40 PM Eastern), and new jobless claims are at an 8-month high (most recent report). Expected demand can have influence on the price just as expected supply can.

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The larger picture is that the rush of developing nations to improved standards of living is going to increasingly drive oil prices, which means gasoline prices will be more volatile. We will simply have to be more careful of how we use gasoline, and take that into account when making a major purchase. It's not the responsibility of any president to ensure our ability to commute to work in an F-150 or Suburban.

 

(Given that fact, I'm amused that many liberals and Democrats who were blaming George W. Bush for higher gasoline prices a few years ago have suddenly discovered how world oil markets really work.)

 

Higher prices do encourage conservation over the long run, which is a good thing. I'd rather have conservation encouraged by market forces, as opposed to having the government enact dumb, largely cosmetic measures like the 55 mph speed limit or CAFE so that it looks as though it's "doing something."

Edited by grbeck

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I don't consider myself a liberal, but I've changed my mind over the past few years about what we need to do, as a nation, to reduce our need to import fuel. As noted above, we are not the drivers of demand anymore, and sure don't control supply.

 

So I favor gradually phasing in a big gasoline tax, to reduce demand, and to force fuel conservation. By doing that, fuel prices might actually decline at the pump, you might not notice the tax increase.

 

The bigger question I'm not comfortable with, is how to make our congress use the money wisely. Our national infastructure could use it, as an example.

 

I know this is not a popular view on this forum, but many car people favor this idea, and I haven't seen a better idea to reduce demand. The current high cost of gasoline is a "tax" on our economy, and a transfer of our wealth to foreign countries. At at least with an increased US fuel tax, reducing demand and pump prices, this tax would stay in our country for our use.

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Ralph you are a liberal, it just makes you sound foolish when you give us that BS about changing your mind. Spare the BS, just state your opinion.

 

Artificially raising the coast of fuel will raise the cost of EVERYTHING. Even a simpleton can predict that. Is that what you really want? No, you are just pushing the liberal agenda to have government take over increasing large segments of business and society and the economy. The gasoline tax already far exceeds the profits made by any body else that actually produces delivers or sells the stuff. Mostly you just see this as a way to give enven more power and money to your friends in Washington.

 

Raising the tax here reduces total demand, (at the expense of our economy) and give China an additional competitive benefit of having cheaper energy as well as cheaper labor. Think, for once, about the consequences of government meddling in the economy...

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On a weighted average of 100 worldwide, US gas price is at 77. There are some very successful economies that have gas prices far higher than ours. Not saying we should pile taxes on - just pointing that out.

 

gasmap1.png

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On a weighted average of 100 worldwide, US gas price is at 77. There are some very successful economies that have gas prices far higher than ours. Not saying we should pile taxes on - just pointing that out.

 

gasmap1.png

 

Retro, would a mild gas tax be out of line for the US, something like 50 cents a gallon

that goes straight to deficit reduction?

 

I know tax can be inflationary but maybe that has the added benefit of stimulating

the economy through higher prices or would that create some form of stagflation?

Edited by jpd80

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Ralph you are a liberal, it just makes you sound foolish when you give us that BS about changing your mind. Spare the BS, just state your opinion.

 

Artificially raising the coast of fuel will raise the cost of EVERYTHING. Even a simpleton can predict that. Is that what you really want? No, you are just pushing the liberal agenda to have government take over increasing large segments of business and society and the economy. The gasoline tax already far exceeds the profits made by any body else that actually produces delivers or sells the stuff. Mostly you just see this as a way to give enven more power and money to your friends in Washington.

 

Raising the tax here reduces total demand, (at the expense of our economy) and give China an additional competitive benefit of having cheaper energy as well as cheaper labor. Think, for once, about the consequences of government meddling in the economy...

 

And your idea is??????

 

How do you know phasing in a (say) .50 gas tax will increase the price at the pump of gasoline? We now see demand destruction around the $4 level. If part of that $4 was added tax, what would be the problem? Especially if the tax was earmarked for road and bridge maintenance.

 

BTW....I would also do away with the ethanol subsidy. I don't mind using E10 in my cars (but hate it for my lawn equipment), but don't understand why we subsidize it. Brazil W/B happy to sell us ethanol cheap....if the market wants it.

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Retro, would a mild gas tax be out of line for the US, something like 50 cents a gallon

that goes straight to deficit reduction?

 

I know tax can be inflationary but maybe that has the added benefit of stimulating

the economy through higher prices or would that create some form of stagflation?

If you take $1 out of someone's (or some company's) pocket, that is $1 less available for consumption or capital investment.

 

You can take a $1 from Peter to pay Paul, but Paul will always get less than $1 because the cost of doing government's business removes it.

 

And any time you add another overhead cost to society (like the expansion of government) the more you lower the overall amount of discretionary income.

Edited by RangerM

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And your idea is??????

 

How do you know phasing in a (say) .50 gas tax will increase the price at the pump of gasoline? We now see demand destruction around the $4 level. If part of that $4 was added tax, what would be the problem?

 

Problem is, a $0.50 gas tax would be part of the $4.50, not $4.00.

 

You don't stimulate an economy by removing that fuel (ie. money) that it runs on.

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Problem is, a $0.50 gas tax would be part of the $4.50, not $4.00.

 

You don't stimulate an economy by removing that fuel (ie. money) that it runs on.

 

It forces the consumer to be more efficient with choices made,

hitting everything touched by transport including goods and food....

Edited by jpd80

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It forces the consumer to be more efficient with choices made,

hitting everything touched by transport including goods and food....

I suppose driving up the cost of everything to where the average consumer can only affort Malt-o-meal instead of Cheerios might be a good thing to some, but I don't think so.

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The larger picture is that the rush of developing nations to improved standards of living is going to increasingly drive oil prices, which means gasoline prices will be more volatile. We will simply have to be more careful of how we use gasoline, and take that into account when making a major purchase. It's not the responsibility of any president to ensure our ability to commute to work in an F-150 or Suburban.

 

(Given that fact, I'm amused that many liberals and Democrats who were blaming George W. Bush for higher gasoline prices a few years ago have suddenly discovered how world oil markets really work.)

 

Higher prices do encourage conservation over the long run, which is a good thing. I'd rather have conservation encouraged by market forces, as opposed to having the government enact dumb, largely cosmetic measures like the 55 mph speed limit or CAFE so that it looks as though it's "doing something."

Another piece of the mosaic......

The House passed a bill to force the administration to sell offshore drilling permits in the Gulf of Mexico and off the Virginia coast, and the price of oil fell 8.6% in one day, the largest drop in over two years!

Coincidence perhaps? All things are considered by speculators.

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I suppose driving up the cost of everything to where the average consumer can only affort Malt-o-meal instead of Cheerios might be a good thing to some, but I don't think so.

 

You'd think that reducing a deficit of over $14 trillion was way more

important than choosing which snack food to buy but here we are....

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I'll also add that, looking at the "green" zones on that gas price map (areas where gas is cheaper than in the US), most of them are shit holes. (Is that too strong a term?)

 

Most people who complain the loudest about deficits don't really want to do what it would take to pay them off. Ranger, I think you overstate the case that gubmint money disappears into a black hole without benefit to the economy. I don't consider pothole free roads, sound bridges, potable tap water, halfway credible police protection, and the education my kids got boondoggles. I don't consider the follow-on consumer and tax spending by the people who provided them to be without value to the economy. No-bid contracts for Halliburton in a hostile, backwards country on the other side of the world wrecked in a ginned up war? Maybe.

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I'll also add that, looking at the "green" zones on that gas price map (areas where gas is cheaper than in the US), most of them are shit holes. (Is that too strong a term?)

I was going to object to the term "most"........

 

Most people who complain the loudest about deficits don't really want to do what it would take to pay them off. Ranger, I think you overstate the case that gubmint money disappears into a black hole without benefit to the economy. I don't consider pothole free roads, sound bridges, potable tap water, halfway credible police protection, and the education my kids got boondoggles. I don't consider the follow-on consumer and tax spending by the people who provided them to be without value to the economy. No-bid contracts for Halliburton in a hostile, backwards country on the other side of the world wrecked in a ginned up war? Maybe.

I think the Government needs a Ford styled reformation:

- Right size Government to true constituent need in terms of tax, spending and personnel.

- Start paying down that debt.

- Treat tax payers like customers and provide better service.

 

Surely eliminating that debt is going to save huge amounts of interest that would otherwise line a lending institution's pockets, that money could go towards paying for social programs that benefit all citizens and improve everyone's lives.

 

Not meaning to sound too liberal but both sides of politics should be working on this problem for the good of the country.

Edited by jpd80

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Ranger, I think you overstate the case that gubmint money disappears into a black hole without benefit to the economy.

The "gubmint" is not a black hole, but it is an overhead cost.

 

In your professional life, you don't simply decide to purchase a new drafting table-even if it's an improvement over the old one--unless you must or it provides such an advantage that the cost-to-benefit ratio makes sense.

 

You also don't decide to hire someone, move to a new office, or go on a sales trip without considering the same thing.

No-bid contracts for Halliburton in a hostile, backwards country on the other side of the world wrecked in a ginned up war? Maybe.

Apparently, you and I agree that this aspect (cost-to-benefit) is NOT considered with a myriad of government functions. We may just not agree on which ones are boondoggles.

I don't consider pothole free roads, sound bridges, potable tap water, halfway credible police protection, and the education my kids got boondoggles. I don't consider the follow-on consumer and tax spending by the people who provided them to be without value to the economy.

Can you find anyone who believes that those things aren't important? It's a matter of priority. But the order of those priorities may differ between us. That's why you live in a State that prioritizes its money differently than I do. How about we agree to keep it that way?

 

Taxing someone and giving it to someone else (or spending it) has a cost. Those 106,000 Federal IRS employees don't work for free. Many of their functions are mimicked at the State level, as well. And I'm sure you'd agree with me that while the IRS performs a function, it produces nothing of value (in a literal sense) to you or I (unless pamphlets are your thing). The dollar the IRS takes in is reduced by the amount it costs to run the IRS. And every dollar distributed by the IRS is further diminished by the overhead costs of whatever agency implements whatever program. And on, and on.

 

Overhead costs are just that, costs.

 

If you want your priorities met in a given order, then you and your fellow Seattleites (Washingtonians) should decide that and pay for them in that order. So long as you want to force the "red" states to adopt the "blue" states' point of view, this argument will never end. Hell, even the blue states don't agree with each other's priorites (same as the red states). With so many points of view, does it really make sense to have a one-size-fits-all policy? I guess it does if you're the one deciding it, but what if I am?

 

Now as far as the price of gas, how much is profit for the greedy oil company and how much is tax? (Source)

gastax.jpg

 

The actual tax varies....

statetgastax.jpg

Edited by RangerM

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You'd think that reducing a deficit of over $14 trillion was way more important than choosing which snack food to buy but here we are....

Actually, those are breakfast (most important meal of the day!) cereals.

 

When you raise retail prices for everyone artificially, the people at the low end will be hurt first. Raise retail prices and those who were buying Malt-o-Meal can't afford that anymore.

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The "gubmint" is not a black hole, but it is an overhead cost.

 

In your professional life, you don't simply decide to purchase a new drafting table-even if it's an improvement over the old one--unless you must or it provides such an advantage that the cost-to-benefit ratio makes sense.

 

You also don't decide to hire someone, move to a new office, or go on a sales trip without considering the same thing.

 

Apparently, you and I agree that this aspect (cost-to-benefit) is NOT considered with a myriad of government functions. We may just not agree on which ones are boondoggles.

 

Can you find anyone who believes that those things aren't important? It's a matter of priority. But the order of those priorities may differ between us. That's why you live in a State that prioritizes its money differently than I do. How about we agree to keep it that way?

 

Taxing someone and giving it to someone else (or spending it) has a cost. Those 106,000 Federal IRS employees don't work for free. Many of their functions are mimicked at the State level, as well. And I'm sure you'd agree with me that while the IRS performs a function, it produces nothing of value (in a literal sense) to you or I (unless pamphlets are your thing). The dollar the IRS takes in is reduced by the amount it costs to run the IRS. And every dollar distributed by the IRS is further diminished by the overhead costs of whatever agency implements whatever program. And on, and on.

 

Overhead costs are just that, costs.

 

If you want your priorities met in a given order, then you and your fellow Seattleites (Washingtonians) should decide that and pay for them in that order. So long as you want to force the "red" states to adopt the "blue" states' point of view, this argument will never end. Hell, even the blue states don't agree with each other's priorites (same as the red states). With so many points of view, does it really make sense to have a one-size-fits-all policy? I guess it does if you're the one deciding it, but what if I am?

 

Now as far as the price of gas, how much is profit for the greedy oil company and how much is tax? (Source)

gastax.jpg

 

The actual tax varies....

statetgastax.jpg

 

Well that is a fucking bitch, because up here in Alaska we are paying $4.20/gallon right now, and if so little is going to Mr. Washington, I sure would love to be one of those damn oil companies....

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Well that is a fucking bitch, because up here in Alaska we are paying $4.20/gallon right now, and if so little is going to Mr. Washington, I sure would love to be one of those damn oil companies....

 

Are there refineries in AK? I would say it costs more to ship it to Alaska than anywhere in the lower 48.

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I would like all of you to think of this---------->If Ranger, I, and Mark B Morrow see a napkin on a table, and the price that napkin is being sold for is 500 dollars, we would all get together and produce napkins. As we did; and if more people entered the napkin business, the price would fall. That is capitalism, or the law of supply and demand on which this country was born under.

 

Now then, here we have oil, and/ or gasoline moving around at these high prices. Under our own rules, we would be drilling, refining, and everyone investing to make a killing. We would be using coal, natural gas, and everything else we could get our hands on.

 

Not here; not in America anymore, no sir. What we have is the government trying to curtail production to keep prices high.

 

Now we could all debate the issue if we had an alternative the government thought would be better for our country to use. We would tinker with the system, and end up forcing modification of habit through the tax code, a change to the new alternative. We would grouse, but in the end, it might/could/possibly be better for our own security. But here is the rub-------->these guys are forcing change without any alternative on the horizon putting us economically behind the eight ball.

 

Nobody says, "cut out my heart, although I don't have a donor yet." This is the liberal way as they believe they know what is best for us. It makes little difference that they don't have a solution/replacement yet, it is a great idea so regardless if you like it or not, they are going to do it. Illogical? Who cares, it makes them feel good, and all tingly inside like they are some kind of preachers or something.

 

Personaly, I have given up. I don't know if it is the liberals, the government as a whole, oil companys, the Arabs, Canada, or eco fanatics. I am going to change my habits just because this debate rages, and so many people think it is a wonderful idea to lose what this country was built on and allow some political hacs to tell them what to do. By the time enough wake up, I will be to old to care, lol.

 

So for me, liberals in this arena, I will not stop fighting you, but I will change my habits and buy a crackerbox auto; getting rid of all my big stuff. It is a waste of time to try and buck your craziness, since so many of you think this is the norm and that we ought to look like Europe.

 

So finally, I SURRENDER TO YOU ON THIS FRONT, and will buy a small car. At least maybe I will be able to afford to drive further, and try to convince more people in different places, that you are as socialist as those we spent trillions to defeat. Guess while the voice of America was brodcast to them, you guys were reading Trotsky or something.

 

Good luck, tell Ford to quit building trucks cause you screwed that one real well, tell the RV industry to forget about it, snowmobiles, jet skis etc; and oh yeah----> buy a monthly pass on mass transit, cause that is where this is all going. When you get mugged in a big city like Chicago, don't come crying to us.

 

I wonder if on all those computer files they got when they killed Osama if they found something like this-------->Sahibe, we no longer have to attack the great satan and shoot them in the foot, because they are so stupid, they are shooting themselves in the foot for us! Let us sit here, smoke hashish and watch CNN. In this manner, we can watch everyday how dumb they really are.

 

Yes my liberal friends, I am going to buy me a house now that I am 85% retired out in the Southwest with a cement pond in my backyard, float around on a raft while sipping fru-fru drinks, and wonder how you guys like paying 3 to 7 bucks a gallon to get to work, when you work, if you still have a job. (5 bucks as the economy gets better, dropping to 3 after a few months as the economy is forced to cool down. Oh, you liberals are so intelligent, you now control the economy through the price of fuel. To bad you work for an automaker, lolololol) Of course, your hero ObamaMessiah, now wants to put a new tax in based on the miles you drive, lol. Me, I am gonna drive to the grocery store, liquor store, and pool supply store, maybe every other week. Probably 3 gallons tops. Man, 50 bucks a month at 7 bucks a gallon. Yep, I think I can afford that.

 

Geeze, I sure hope you guys don't live out in the boonies, far away from work to escape crime in the big city!! If you do, I got me one of them there old 2 wheel bicycles I will sell ya for cheap! It may not have a heater or air conditioning, but hey, you are the ones who want to make everyone suffer for your ideas, so damn it; suffer a little and show us all the way to salvation------)))))))))

Edited by Imawhosure

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I am going to buy me a house now that I am 85% retired out in the Southwest with a cement pond in my backyard, float around on a raft while sipping fru-fru drinks,

Sounds great! Sure hope water stays affordable in that part of the world. :)

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