I am a Camaro Owner

[mettech]

point is Kirb, for some reason everyone thinks the problem lies at the feet of the Dealers and everyone yells get rid of them ignoring the consequences. Real;ity is we are a conduit, and OUR hands are tied, we relat the info WE are fed...but some here feel its OUR issue...its NOT, I have stated numerous times the system is flawed, imperfect and frustrating to say the least...is staing reality whining?....please answer that, if answering questions honestly comes off that way I may as well just stop because obviously the answers are falling on deaf ears and you guys have made your minds up and wont be swayed by insider input. Very easy to sit back and critique, but its obvious here you guys are on the outside looking in and do NOT know what dealers go through to appese customers all the while answering to Ford. So, your answer now is just to give everyone X plan? Good Lord.....lets just jack up the MSRP so the new X plan reflects what WAS MSRP. Once again you guys are touching on price fixing across the board, so obviously X Plan is no longer a "deal"....want to know how the public would react to that...sooner or later THAT wouldnt be considered a "deal" and people would want better. As for the ordering...all that what was stated can be achieved right NOW through dealers...what you stated is mirrored through the order verification process, prices are pre-negotiated, deposits are taken, customer is pre-approved and takes delivery when the car arrives....but, tracking is STILL an issue and commonly IS inaccurate...

 

 

And that is why Ford should have a superstore (stack em high, sale em cheap) or two or more in each State. Dealerships are excess overhead for some of the customers.

A direct line from the company to the consumer is all that is needed. The current dealership invoice would be the new MSRP.

 

The only true reason I need a dealership is for Motorcraft servicing for my Ford products.

 

Dealerships were useful when the only information a consumer could get about a product was at the dealership. Today, the via the Internet, I can chat with Ford directly and avoid the middleman.

[akirby]

dont agree in the slightest...no-one gains anything from that scenario....

 

I think you overestimate the honesty of some dealerships (some, not all).

[Deanh]

I think you overestimate the honesty of some dealerships (some, not all).

perhaps...but if theres no gain what exactly is the point...me i'd friggen LOVE it....plus customers would get a kick out of involvement....

[akirby]

perhaps...but if theres no gain what exactly is the point...me i'd friggen LOVE it....plus customers would get a kick out of involvement....

 

The gain is that customers know exactly where their vehicle is and the gain for dealers is they don't have to field calls from customers all the time asking where their vehicle is. I don't see any downside for an honest dealer. But I guarantee you some dealer somewhere would object and play the franchise law card and get it stopped. It's happened too many times in the past.

[Deanh]

And that is why Ford should have a superstore (stack em high, sale em cheap) or two or more in each State. Dealerships are excess overhead for some of the customers.

A direct line from the company to the consumer is all that is needed. The current dealership invoice would be the new MSRP.

 

The only true reason I need a dealership is for Motorcraft servicing for my Ford products.

 

Dealerships were useful when the only information a consumer could get about a product was at the dealership. Today, the via the Internet, I can chat with Ford directly and avoid the middleman.

sorry metech, your just add water mentality will never see fruition for several of the reasons already mentioned here....so, does this mean next time you buy a vehicle you will pay suggested retail.....because thats EXACTLY what would happen...and HAS been tried....anyone for a Saturn?....Dealerships being an un-necessary overhead is a particularly naive statement....do YOU deal with the public?....and hate to say it but if you are chatting with someone on the internet they happen to be a middle man in some form or another....

[Deanh]

The gain is that customers know exactly where their vehicle is and the gain for dealers is they don't have to field calls from customers all the time asking where their vehicle is. I don't see any downside for an honest dealer. But I guarantee you some dealer somewhere would object and play the franchise law card and get it stopped. It's happened too many times in the past.

you completely missed my point...what would a dealer gain by restricting someone accessing the where-abouts of their vehicle....answer...nothing, so whats the point...

[pony racer]

can use some help..

 

need some up to date tracking info on my car..

 

Vin listed earlier in the thread.. page 1 i believe

 

 

PM it to me, i know it would be done as a courtesy, so i dont want anyone getting into trouble..

 

thanks in advance..

[Deanh]

can use some help..

 

need some up to date tracking info on my car..

 

Vin listed earlier in the thread.. page 1 i believe

 

 

PM it to me, i know it would be done as a courtesy, so i dont want anyone getting into trouble..

 

thanks in advance..

Rick, wish I could, I tried...the hiccupp is I cant access any inventory barring my own...apologies....

[akirby]

you completely missed my point...what would a dealer gain by restricting someone accessing the where-abouts of their vehicle....answer...nothing, so whats the point...

 

Let's say a customer ordered a mustang GT on X plan and I had a walk-in who wanted the same vehicle willing to pay $500 more. I sell them the ordered vehicle, re-order it and tell the X plan customer that theirs was delayed and it will be another 3-4 weeks. Yes, it happens. Not a lot but it happens.

[Deanh]

Let's say a customer ordered a mustang GT on X plan and I had a walk-in who wanted the same vehicle willing to pay $500 more. I sell them the ordered vehicle, re-order it and tell the X plan customer that theirs was delayed and it will be another 3-4 weeks. Yes, it happens. Not a lot but it happens.

so this whole argument is based on a rarity?......if done correctly the customer would have a deposit and a vin number with an agreed price....if that happened there would be lawsuits....seems YOU guys dealers are in the dark ages.....THOSE practices are pure old school and RARELY happen today except in the minds of conspiracy theorists.....although i will say this...if I ordered a car for a customer and he for whatever the reason became an A-hole....the thoughts of somehow making it difficult for him most definitely WOULD cross my mind....but thankfully its never happened. I will sy this though...i HAVE refused to sell an in stock vehicle to several...how can one say it nicely..."pushy" clients....

[ViperPilot]

Rick, wish I could, I tried...the hiccupp is I cant access any inventory barring my own...apologies....

Now, why do you think that is?

 

And why do you think that others have access to all inventory?

 

Because dealers compete with each other. As opposed to Ford corporate which for the most part are on the same team.

 

Dealers don't want comparison. Comparison drives down prices or business. Jack and Jill walk into two separate dealers to order the same car. Jack's car has a priority 10 and Jill's is 20 and Jack has his built and delivered while Jill just got her build date. Jill learns this on the internet, publicly slags her dealer for dicking her around.

 

Dealers already put pressure on Ford with regards to the tracking that was going on on this very site. Especially when the dealer got caught selling the ordered car from under the buyer.

 

You might not feel that a transparent system is a bad thing but I guarantee you that there are dealers out there that fear this.

 

And Poneyracer, there is no change in status of your car from the last update you got. Like what was mentioned before to you it's at a shunt point and it was just the holiday weekend where there was little movement at the yards. I'm sure that "other person" will let you know if there is a change. He hasn't let you down yet, right?

[Deanh]

Now, why do you think that is?

 

And why do you think that others have access to all inventory?

 

Because dealers compete with each other. As opposed to Ford corporate which for the most part are on the same team.

 

Dealers don't want comparison. Comparison drives down prices or business. Jack and Jill walk into two separate dealers to order the same car. Jack's car has a priority 10 and Jill's is 20 and Jack has his built and delivered while Jill just got her build date. Jill learns this on the internet, publicly slags her dealer for dicking her around.

 

Dealers already put pressure on Ford with regards to the tracking that was going on on this very site. Especially when the dealer got caught selling the ordered car from under the buyer.

 

You might not feel that a transparent system is a bad thing but I guarantee you that there are dealers out there that fear this.

 

And Poneyracer, there is no change in status of your car from the last update you got. Like what was mentioned before to you it's at a shunt point and it was just the holiday weekend where there was little movement at the yards. I'm sure that "other person" will let you know if there is a change. He hasn't let you down yet, right?

dealers get compared all the time Viper...they have no choice...its human anture to shop for the "best" deal...now, take away said dealers and that prividge is GONE....and if its Factory direct why should the "factory" even discount the vehicle?...thats my point to Metech, which for some reason he cannot comprehend....Me, I rightfully dont know why a dealer would fear transperency...doesnt bother me in the slightest....the only issue i have is if a consumer ordered the same vehicle from a multitude of dealers and tracked each vehicle to get the first as such...just a sidenote....oh for the ficticious non refundable deposit....

[chiefstang]

Okay. First off. Vehicle visibility didn't tell us shit about when the Mustang was coming in (which was the initial bitch that started this merry-go-round). It just told us they were sitting in a lot with a ETA of "TBD".... And yes we, the dealers were the ones on the front lines looking stupid with no answers. We were the ones trying to keep these people calm. Ambassadors, bub..

 

So, no offense, Viper, but you can stick the vehicle visibility argument...

 

And guess what. If Ford tried some "Bold Moves", and got rid of the dealer network, guess what... People would stop buying Fords when they ran into a salesman AT A DEALER.

 

The fanatical bunch of us here represents a sliver of the clueless buyers that wander aimlessly into a dealership. These people need to be sold, or someone else will sell them instead. As much as you all seem to despise salesman, we are the ones preaching quality improvements, styling, and value when the people are on the lot ready to pull the trigger. I can't tell you how many times I played the "no pressure, nice-guy" role just to have the people tell me they bought from the whorehouse up the street. Unfortunately, nice guys finish last.

 

I don't want people to find a pro at the Nissan store. I don't want them to even make it to their front door. THAT'S our job. Put these people in Fords. Without Ford having an experienced dealer network, these people will buy from the first hammer they run into.

 

Sorry, but it's true. Don't hate the player and all that...

 

You all seem to think that selling cars is pretty easy. Do you know how many weaker salespeople I've outlasted to keep my job? And my degree consisted of "sell a car keep your job". So, I may not need the qualifications to get into the business, but you better bet yer ass I'd better be qualified to stay in it. I've seen plenty of guys with degrees get crushed and bounced out the door without selling even one car. A degree don't mean squat here. You'll fail if you can't sell.

 

Period.

 

 

BTW, Viper. Nothing against you at all, you're a huge help here for alot of folks, and I like 'ya... But you're wrong here.

[Deanh]

Okay. First off. Vehicle visibility didn't tell us shit about when the Mustang was coming in (which was the initial bitch that started this merry-go-round). It just told us they were sitting in a lot with a ETA of "TBD".... And yes we, the dealers were the ones on the front lines looking stupid with no answers. We were the ones trying to keep these people calm. Ambassadors, bub..

 

So, no offense, Viper, but you can stick the vehicle visibility argument...

 

And guess what. If Ford tried some "Bold Moves", and got rid of the dealer network, guess what... People would stop buying Fords when they ran into a salesman AT A DEALER.

 

The fanatical bunch of us here represents a sliver of the clueless buyers that wander aimlessly into a dealership. These people need to be sold, or someone else will sell them instead. As much as you all seem to despise salesman, we are the ones preaching quality improvements, styling, and value when the people are on the lot ready to pull the trigger. I can't tell you how many times I played the "no pressure, nice-guy" role just to have the people tell me they bought from the whorehouse up the street. Unfortunately, nice guys finish last.

 

I don't want people to find a pro at the Nissan store. I don't want them to even make it to their front door. THAT'S our job. Put these people in Fords. Without Ford having an experienced dealer network, these people will buy from the first hammer they run into.

 

Sorry, but it's true. Don't hate the player and all that...

 

You all seem to think that selling cars is pretty easy. Do you know how many weaker salespeople I've outlasted to keep my job? And my degree consisted of "sell a car keep your job". So, I may not need the qualifications to get into the business, but you better bet yer ass I'd better be qualified to stay in it. I've seen plenty of guys with degrees get crushed and bounced out the door without selling even one car. A degree don't mean squat here. You'll fail if you can't sell.

 

Period.

 

 

BTW, Viper. Nothing against you at all, you're a huge help here for alot of folks, and I like 'ya... But you're wrong here.

and there in lies the reason I have the UTMOST respect for the guys ( well theres always the odd bad apple ) I witness on the frontlines daily taking one for the team.....and the reason i jump to the defense of people in the industry...the armchair back seat boys barraging those in the profession with critiques are clueless to the ins and outs of the profession....and i doubt many here would last/ or even consider working for some of the paychecks I witness.....I am personally a tad removed from the front lines...but guess what...i do NOT make a penny if I do not sell anything...oh, a $300 draw....reminds me to re-investigate the second story on the house....lol...

[ViperPilot]

dealers get compared all the time Viper...they have no choice...its human anture to shop for the "best" deal...now, take away said dealers and that prividge is GONE....and if its Factory direct why should the "factory" even discount the vehicle?...thats my point to Metech, which for some reason he cannot comprehend....Me, I rightfully dont know why a dealer would fear transperency...doesnt bother me in the slightest....the only issue i have is if a consumer ordered the same vehicle from a multitude of dealers and tracked each vehicle to get the first as such...just a sidenote....oh for the ficticious non refundable deposit....

In think you've confused me with someone else, I never said that there should be no dealers, I said that dealers should be held accountable for the level of service or lack thereof that they provide. And push out the bad ones that give not only Ford but all Ford dealers a bad name.

 

What i mean in transparency is in the process after the order is submitted. This isn't just a dealer issue, it is a Ford issue as well. ...which goes with this point....

 

Okay. First off. Vehicle visibility didn't tell us shit about when the Mustang was coming in (which was the initial bitch that started this merry-go-round). It just told us they were sitting in a lot with a ETA of "TBD".... And yes we, the dealers were the ones on the front lines looking stupid with no answers. We were the ones trying to keep these people calm. Ambassadors, bub..

 

The ball was dropped in two places here, one being Ford not being more clear/forthcoming about the delays and what they would be and dealers not being up front with customers to EXPECT the delays

 

No dealer should be "promising" delivery dates but there were dealers out there that were making such promises. The quality holds at the start of a new vehicle's production has benn going on for at least 5 years now. Why are dealers not making customers aware of this?

 

As much as you all seem to despise salesman....

I don't hate salesmen at all. But I've had good dealers and bad dealers. I deal with one salesmen that's a great guy. He sometimes comes to me for product information. Hell he might not know everything but at least he tries to learn. But I did have a salesman once tell me when I had a problem with a car I took delivery of "What do you want, it's a Topaz not a Grand Marquis?", well guess who I never bought another Mercury from them again? I've had dealers advertise "2008 Ranger 4x4 for $17000, 25 to choose from" called them up and specifically asked "do you really have 25 different ones to look at?", they said yes and then I drove 45 minutes to the dealer only to find out that they had ONE (1) and that the other 24 were at OTHER dealerships in the whole PROVINCE and that they could do a dealer trade. And then proceded to try to upsell me. The friggin guy called me 5 times after I told him I wasn't interested.

 

You all seem to think that selling cars is pretty easy.

Not at all. Just like every job, it has a certain skillset. But you can tell the difference between a good salesman (plumber, electrician, roofer, engineer, cop) and a bad one. And the bad ones drag the whole profession down.

 

What you need to realize is that there are bad eggs out there, that need to get tossed.

[Deanh]

In think you've confused me with someone else, I never said that there should be no dealers, I said that dealers should be held accountable for the level of service or lack thereof that they provide. And push out the bad ones that give not only Ford but all Ford dealers a bad name.

 

What i mean in transparency is in the process after the order is submitted. This isn't just a dealer issue, it is a Ford issue as well. ...which goes with this point....

 

 

 

The ball was dropped in two places here, one being Ford not being more clear/forthcoming about the delays and what they would be and dealers not being up front with customers to EXPECT the delays

 

No dealer should be "promising" delivery dates but there were dealers out there that were making such promises. The quality holds at the start of a new vehicle's production has benn going on for at least 5 years now. Why are dealers not making customers aware of this?

 

 

I don't hate salesmen at all. But I've had good dealers and bad dealers. I deal with one salesmen that's a great guy. He sometimes comes to me for product information. Hell he might not know everything but at least he tries to learn. But I did have a salesman once tell me when I had a problem with a car I took delivery of "What do you want, it's a Topaz not a Grand Marquis?", well guess who I never bought another Mercury from them again? I've had dealers advertise "2008 Ranger 4x4 for $17000, 25 to choose from" called them up and specifically asked "do you really have 25 different ones to look at?", they said yes and then I drove 45 minutes to the dealer only to find out that they had ONE (1) and that the other 24 were at OTHER dealerships in the whole PROVINCE and that they could do a dealer trade. And then proceded to try to upsell me. The friggin guy called me 5 times after I told him I wasn't interested.

 

 

Not at all. Just like every job, it has a certain skillset. But you can tell the difference between a good salesman (plumber, electrician, roofer, engineer, cop) and a bad one. And the bad ones drag the whole profession down.

 

What you need to realize is that there are bad eggs out there, that need to get tossed.

Viper...Cheifstang will back me here...as dealers we DO NOT know if a vehicle is going to be delayed ...unless of course we are told....thats it, there IS no grey area. i will REPEAT myself...we only relay the information we are given...thats it :shades: if VV tells us the eta is 6/1 THATS what is conveyed. If its a new model theres bound to be delays, but FORD shouldnt even POST ETAs until they are certain they can be met....the dealer is COMPLETELY blameless in this scenario...hell, you guys should look in the damn mirror because some are the first to take anything on a computer as GOSPEL....it MUST be 100% accurate...welcome to the almighty computer age....as for the 25 Ranger quip, those are ILLEGAL practices...if advertised Vin numbers must also be listed.....seems you have obviously had a bad experience, they dont all have to be the same way...but its understandable that may be the root cause for some of the inaccurate blanket statements some are posting.......

[chiefstang]

 

Not at all. Just like every job, it has a certain skillset. But you can tell the difference between a good salesman (plumber, electrician, roofer, engineer, cop) and a bad one. And the bad ones drag the whole profession down.

 

What you need to realize is that there are bad eggs out there, that need to get tossed.

 

Soooo... There are no bad plumbers, electricians, roofers, engineers, or cops?

[akirby]

Dealers already put pressure on Ford with regards to the tracking that was going on on this very site. Especially when the dealer got caught selling the ordered car from under the buyer.

 

Hey Dean - here is your 'rarity' - a dealer selling an ordered car out from under someone and getting caught.

 

I'm with viperpilot on this one - just allow Ford to hold these yahoo dealers accountable when they try to screw customers or just do a bad job. As it stands right now, Ford can't defend their brand or do anything to ensure their customers are treated well by the dealers.

 

I'm sure there are only a few of these really bad dealers, but that's all it takes. And it only takes ONE dealer to sue Ford using the franchise laws to stop Ford from doing anything.

 

Just because you and chiefstang work at reputable dealerships doesn't mean they're all that way. And that's all we're saying.

[ViperPilot]

Soooo... There are no bad plumbers, electricians, roofers, engineers, or cops?

I am absolutely sure that there are.

 

And don't you feel that if you owned a company whose name and reputation depends on the work of these individuals that represent you, that you should have the right to get rid of them (using due process, of course)?

 

Just because you and chiefstang work at reputable dealerships doesn't mean they're all that way. And that's all we're saying.

Exactly.

[Marginal Economist]

The Auto Collection has come and gone. It was a failure and the areas where Ford owned all the stores have struggled to regain market share. Ford can manufacture and assemble vehicles - but they are much better at wholesaling than retailing vehicles.

 

Dealerships are not going away - fact. There will always be more progressive dealers that embrace technology, aggressive marketing, and customer service. There are others that are old school and will never change. Ford can not just get rid of thse dealers, and they can't just lower their allocation. They can make suggestions, apply inventory pressure, but they do not own the store.

 

Ford has tried to improve the retail process. The retail Order Verification program allowed dealers with low allocations to sell more vehicles. Many dealers embraced the program and sold more vehicles - others did not and saw their allocation being earned by other dealers. Ford came out with the Drive One kiosks- they'll be hitting in July-Sept at some dealers around the country. The Fiesta movemet was embraced by most large dealerships - but some opted out and Ford can not stop them.

Ford will try to help improve the retail process, but they can't take more than a consultative approach. Ford is a business parten with each delaership. In some instances the relationship is limited by Ford, other times by the dealership.

[akirby]

Ford is a business parten with each delaership. In some instances the relationship is limited by Ford, other times by the dealership.

 

The problem is the dealer is protected by antiquated state franchise laws designed to protect the dealers at all costs and leaving Ford with almost no way to ensure a good customer experience.

 

Look at the Blue Oval certified program that the dealers shot down in court. It would have rewarded good dealers with bigger holdbacks. It only takes a few bad dealers to use the franchise laws to maintain their poor business practices. And that's why it's wrong.

[ViperPilot]

then updated to June 1st ETA. Ok, I thought... until others that ordered afterwards were receiving their cars :angry: . I think the final straw for me was the lack of updated info on my car while some were able to receive their cars in as little as 18 days . Well, I checked one finally time on Friday (6/25/10) -to no surprise still no update! (VIN #1ZVBP8CF7B5118634)

Your car the car arrived at the dealer yesterday.

[Deanh]

The problem is the dealer is protected by antiquated state franchise laws designed to protect the dealers at all costs and leaving Ford with almost no way to ensure a good customer experience.

 

Look at the Blue Oval certified program that the dealers shot down in court. It would have rewarded good dealers with bigger holdbacks. It only takes a few bad dealers to use the franchise laws to maintain their poor business practices. And that's why it's wrong.

explain the word antiquated.....and also what you say about Blue Oval is only semi correct...and a complete farce in other areas.....

[Deanh]

Hey Dean - here is your 'rarity' - a dealer selling an ordered car out from under someone and getting caught.

 

I'm with viperpilot on this one - just allow Ford to hold these yahoo dealers accountable when they try to screw customers or just do a bad job. As it stands right now, Ford can't defend their brand or do anything to ensure their customers are treated well by the dealers.

 

I'm sure there are only a few of these really bad dealers, but that's all it takes. And it only takes ONE dealer to sue Ford using the franchise laws to stop Ford from doing anything.

 

Just because you and chiefstang work at reputable dealerships doesn't mean they're all that way. And that's all we're saying.

oh i agree, but if the customer had handled the order in the correct and OBVIOUS manner...ie receipt for deposit AND a veried vin number with signed DORA and agreed upon price if he had discovered the goings on LEGALLY he could have had a field day.......

[Deanh]

The Auto Collection has come and gone. It was a failure and the areas where Ford owned all the stores have struggled to regain market share. Ford can manufacture and assemble vehicles - but they are much better at wholesaling than retailing vehicles.

 

Dealerships are not going away - fact. There will always be more progressive dealers that embrace technology, aggressive marketing, and customer service. There are others that are old school and will never change. Ford can not just get rid of thse dealers, and they can't just lower their allocation. They can make suggestions, apply inventory pressure, but they do not own the store.

 

Ford has tried to improve the retail process. The retail Order Verification program allowed dealers with low allocations to sell more vehicles. Many dealers embraced the program and sold more vehicles - others did not and saw their allocation being earned by other dealers. Ford came out with the Drive One kiosks- they'll be hitting in July-Sept at some dealers around the country. The Fiesta movemet was embraced by most large dealerships - but some opted out and Ford can not stop them.

Ford will try to help improve the retail process, but they can't take more than a consultative approach. Ford is a business parten with each delaership. In some instances the relationship is limited by Ford, other times by the dealership.

and I can tell you the exact reasons they failed too...one was the salepeople were basically clerks....it was like Best buy...or in this case The Good Guys and Circuit City....ring bells?....