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The idiocy of a compact Lincoln


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In the first, not likely: large cars didn't go away thirty years ago, when there were considerably fewer options for improving fuel economy.

 

But the large cars of 1974 became the somewhat smaller and noticeably lighter large cars of 1979. And the auto companies have the same three areas for improvement - reduce weight, improve aerodynamics, and improve engine/drivetrain efficiency

 

The meat of the US market is probably going to be the 'midsize segment' as it has been for the last fifty years. Maybe the millennials will stay in small cars into their maximum buying years, unlike Gen X and Baby Boomers before them. But as those generations aged up they also bought bigger cars. I seen no reason why Millennials will stick with small cars as their lives become more complicated.

 

True, midsize will probably be the center of the market. But remember bracket creep - midsize in the 60s was Fairlane, by the late 70s it was Fairmont, by the mid 80s the Taurus, and the Contour in the late 90s. Fusion today. I see the platform used by the Focus growing slightly so that a Focus or Focus variant will have the interior space of a Fusion. The European designations A, B, C etc. are rather arbitrary anyway, with some overlap, so why get hung up on them?

 

It does not follow that Lincoln should throw all its resources into D/E sized vehicles because they're not investing in C sized vehicles.

 

[b][/b] OK, if they are not throwing all of the resources into D and E, and cannot put any into C, what then? F? B? This is all arbitrary anyway.

 

If it is that size and that width it will not be a C segment vehicle.

 

Again the terminology hangup. Is there a hard and fast dimensional definition of C size?

 

 

If Lincoln is to grow in sales, there must be different "flavors" to suit what the buyers want. The MKS, MKZ, and so on have their following, so fill in hte gaps with other vehicles that can be built from common platforms.

Edited by lfeg
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Do they give CUVs/SUVs the same class designators as passenger cars though?

 

I mean, I've never heard the Flex or Freestyle/Taurus X spoken of as a D-segment vehicle.

 

Plus, if the new car were a CUV, that would give Lincoln more SUVs than sedans. Sounds like a weird mix to me for a luxury marque.

 

Lexus has 4 sedans, 3 crossovers, 3Hybrids, 2 convertibles and 2 coupes.

 

I think there's a lot of scope there for Lincoln and Ford to connect the dots....

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I do not think any of us are saying that the "C" platform is not competent enough. I mean, really lets look at the past to see how many mediocre platforms Ford gave Lincoln. The "C" platform performs well, and pretty roomy for it's size...it's what the mission of the vehicle will be, that most of us I believe are questioning. FWD or FWD/AWD, what kind of engine...etc. Lincoln could take this "C" vehicle, and spawn a sedan/coupe/convertible for it as Volvo has done. Maybe this will be it's Lexus IS, but oriented more towards comfort than a drivers car. Still many unleft answered but I'll tell you this, it better be damn good and have totally unique body stampings all around.

 

MKZ, MKT, and MKS are not setting the world on fire, so I'm hoping with the opening of new resources, Lincoln can dedicate themselves to doing a great job, not a half assed job.

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Do they give CUVs/SUVs the same class designators as passenger cars though?

 

I mean, I've never heard the Flex or Freestyle/Taurus X spoken of as a D-segment vehicle.

 

Plus, if the new car were a CUV, that would give Lincoln more SUVs than sedans. Sounds like a weird mix to me for a luxury marque.

 

I don't think anyone in the media really refers to CUVs as such, but the industry I imagine does. The media uses the terms compact, midsize, and full-size, which are basically interchangable with C, C/D, and D.

 

It is somewhat of an odd mix, but the margins are generally higher on CUV's and SUV's, so hey if it works...

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The BMW 1-class doesn't seem to be going away any time soon...

It's supported by significant overseas volume. Lincoln? Not so much.

 

Strange, but I actually find myself agreeing with you. Most folks on this list don't seem to realize it but Ford is (largely) betting its future on C-class vehicles. As we speak, both Michigan Assembly and Louisville Assembly are being gutted so as to produce the Focus and other vehicles off this platform. That's a lot of C-class vehicles. The question, in the very near future, will be if Ford can sell these to Americans accustomed to much larger vehicles.

MAP is basically WAP version 2.0, so the only real change is LAP, which will be producing the Escape & Kuga--and insofar as the Escape is roughly the same size as the 1st gen. Explorer, it's not a dramatic change in long-term footprint.

 

I previously admired Ford for not saying they were competing with any one or two brands ( ala Cadillac the "BMW fighter"). Look like that's out the window too.

I saw that too and rolled my eyes.

 

But remember bracket creep - midsize in the 60s was Fairlane, by the late 70s it was Fairmont, by the mid 80s the Taurus, and the Contour in the late 90s. Fusion today.

Discounting the aberration that was the Contour, cabin room is/was fairly similar from the Fairmont on to the Fusion--and I think it was spittin' distance with the Fairlane.

 

Cars -did- get smaller from '74 to '79 on the outside, but sheesh, do you remember how little space there was on the inside of those barges? I grew up in a '72 Galaxie 500 coupe. We had more room in the smaller '80 LTD that replaced it.

 

GM's last revolutionary product--the B-body Caprice--was a hit because it got smaller without sacrificing passenger room.

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IF done right (right by my terms) I like the idea. Lincoln should be able to compete with the mini and 1 series with a compact. The issue is that a re-badged fiesta isnt going to work. The issue I see it aligns with RJ, how are you going to move enough units?

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Lexus has 4 sedans, 3 crossovers, 3Hybrids, 2 convertibles and 2 coupes.

 

I think there's a lot of scope there for Lincoln and Ford to connect the dots....

 

Sedan, coupe, 'vert... I tend to group all passenger cars together.

 

By my count, Lexus has seven car lines (ES, HS, IS, GS, LS, soon-dead SC, LF-A), one crossover line (RX), and two SUV lines (GX, LX).

 

BTW, the GX and LX are body-on-frame SUVs (the LX being a blatant rebadge of the Land Cruiser) and are definitely not crossovers.

 

My point is, if this C car is instead a crossover, Lincoln would join Infiniti as the only luxury marques with fewer passenger cars than SUVs.

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Check the sales figures.

 

You try and turn a profit on something with volume that low stateside--and no international distribution.

 

Lincoln also has a larger footprint in North America than Volvo. I would expect sales to be higher than they were for Volvo. Granted, it's not a significantly larger footprint, but it is larger. Also, Ford has a much larger marketing arm to push Lincoln along than Volvo ever got in this market.

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Lincoln also has a larger footprint in North America than Volvo. I would expect sales to be higher than they were for Volvo. Granted, it's not a significantly larger footprint, but it is larger. Also, Ford has a much larger marketing arm to push Lincoln along than Volvo ever got in this market.

 

Overall Volvo volume is in the 300k-400k range. I'm going to assume they move far more C70s overseas than they do in the US.

 

And I have no particular fondness for cars like the C70 that exist primarily because some exec felt they were necessary (cf Lexus SC400)

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Just used C70 example as an idea of were Lincoln could go in respect to the C segment size of vehicle & cache or level of luxury.

I am sure RJ you have a much better & informed idea on what Americans perception of the C70 type vehicle is, pertaining

to its C segment roots. Is the $40,000.00 C70 in North America perceived as a rebadged Focus?

Obvious convertibles are very low volume sellers and not a variant to consider as high volume production unit.

 

 

Ford says it wants to produce 2 million vehicles from its C platform, so would it be outrageously expensive to assemble

a Lincoln hardtop alongside other Focus & Lincoln variants?

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I'm going to assume they move far more C70s overseas than they do in the US.

 

Eh, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was actually less.

 

And I have no particular fondness for cars like the C70 that exist primarily because some exec felt they were necessary (cf Lexus SC400)

 

Well, the fact that the newest C70 looked old the day it debuted and that there was no cheaper fixed roof variant offered sure didn't help matters. As for the SC, it could have worked, but the execution was horrible (love-or-hate styling, entirely useless back seat, complete lack of timely updates).

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Oh, and let me clarify my overall position on this:

 

I'm not exactly excited about a compact Lincoln car in the first place. CUV? Sure. No problems there, and I'm hoping that's the "C-segment vehicle" that was alluded to in the press release. However, if Lincoln were to release a C-segment car, I would expect it to be much more in the vein of the S40 than the C30, C70, or Concept C - a traditional 3-box sedan with completely unique sheet metal and interior compared to the Focus. I don't think that would do the brand any harm and could in fact help.

 

I'm not even sure where this Fiesta rebadge stuff came from?? :headscratch:

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If gas prices stay in the $2.50 to $3.00 range, Ford is going to have a difficult time selling a $25,000 Focus, and even more so a $30,000 Focus-based Lincoln.

 

Americans have always preferred big cars, big SUVs and big trucks, if gas is perceived to be affordable. The problem with CAFE is that it isn't market-based and it doesn't take these customer preferences into account.

 

If gas remains affordable when the higher CAFE standards kick in, then it will be back to the bad old days. Manufacturers will be dumping the smaller, fuel-efficient cars into fleets at a loss, while charging premium prices on bigger vehicles that retail buyers really want.

 

Maybe Ford has already factored this into its decision to make a small Lincoln, figuring its going to be the loss-leader fleet queen, allowing big profits to be made on Navigators and larger MK-whatevers.

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Check the sales figures.

 

You try and turn a profit on something with volume that low stateside--and no international distribution.

 

But Ford was going to release this car as a Mercury Tracer... which probably would have sold in even lower numbers (we are all just guessing right?)

 

The point of using Focus chassis is so that a low volume MKC is possible. Ford is counting on selling over 1 million units a year on this platform so I don't see how an unique tophat is really going to tip the scale on profitability of MKC. At the end of the day, a MKC sales is no different to Ford than say... a Grand C-Max sales, another relatively low volume variant.

Edited by bzcat
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Oh, and let me clarify my overall position on this:

 

I'm not exactly excited about a compact Lincoln car in the first place. CUV? Sure. No problems there, and I'm hoping that's the "C-segment vehicle" that was alluded to in the press release. However, if Lincoln were to release a C-segment car, I would expect it to be much more in the vein of the S40 than the C30, C70, or Concept C - a traditional 3-box sedan with completely unique sheet metal and interior compared to the Focus. I don't think that would do the brand any harm and could in fact help.

 

I'm not even sure where this Fiesta rebadge stuff came from?? :headscratch:

 

I agree with your position.

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Sedan, coupe, 'vert... I tend to group all passenger cars together.

 

By my count, Lexus has seven car lines (ES, HS, IS, GS, LS, soon-dead SC, LF-A), one crossover line (RX), and two SUV lines (GX, LX).

 

BTW, the GX and LX are body-on-frame SUVs (the LX being a blatant rebadge of the Land Cruiser) and are definitely not crossovers.

 

My point is, if this C car is instead a crossover, Lincoln would join Infiniti as the only luxury marques with fewer passenger cars than SUVs.

I should have called them Utilities.

My point is that North American buyers may be scaling back on BOF SUV sales but unitary based SUV and Crossovers are still going strong.

 

My Lincoln line up would feature these vehicle types:

 

1) Kuga/Escape

2) New Explorer

3) Expedition (6.2 V8 gas engine or 6.7 V8 diesel)

 

Sedans:

1) MKZ (on CD4)

2) MKS

3) MKS with MKT 117" Wheelbase....as a Town Car replacement.

 

Coupes/Convertibles:

1) Focus Coupe Cabriolet (not essential but complements larger offering)

2) Mustang with longer wheelbase...

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Nothing is permanent. Good decisions in the past are no guarantee of good decisions in the future.

 

This push for a compact Lincoln, to me, smacks of market dictation.

 

Go back to the Cadillac Cimarron. It came out shortly after gas reached its inflation adjusted all time high. It came out at a time when Cadillac was making the most fuel efficient luxury cars on the planet, and it was rated at up to 34mpg highway. It had plenty of electronic gadgets in it.

 

The thinking at GM was that this was the perfect car for the times and that it would expand Cadillac's reach and bring fresh blood into the Cadillac range.

 

It failed miserably.

 

Granted the C2 is a better platform comparatively than the J-Body was for its time, but there are certain assumptions implicit in both product plans: both assume that there is a sizable and untapped market for a compact luxury vehicle.

 

I submit that the returns are in, after three years of rotten economics and lousy gas prices: compact luxury cars priced in the $20s are DOA.

 

The Germans, it seems, love to periodically take a swing at this segment (remember the 318? the A-Class?), and inevitably, they end up shelving the product because it doesn't sell sustainably in this market.

 

One might as well try to sell A-class entry-level product, or $80k priced entry-level branded product.

 

 

If you are right ford is diluting itself by thinking people are willing to pay more for small cars. The fiesta and next Focus are doomed to fail because Americans do not buy luxurious small cars.

 

Are you soo arrogant to think that Ford has not done its homework on the marketing and demographics of this product? and that your "seat of the pants" logic trumps a multi-billion dollar company's marketing research?

 

Richard things change and sometimes we don't see it coming I have to believe that Ford is doing the right thing because this new ford has been executing it plan and meeting the needs of the market better than any company in this industry.

 

Have Faith. this is the same argument used against the C1 focus in 2004.

Edited by Biker16
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Just to be clear:

 

Axe Mercury = Alan's plan

 

Add Lincoln C car = Alan's plan

 

Adding Lincoln C Car = idiotic

 

Does that mean:

 

Alan = idiot?

 

It might...if we all agreed with Richard. I certainly don't. The US market will be heading in the direction of the Canadian market, where small cars and F series sized trucks are basically the market. Higher gas prices and, a lower US dollar, and a relative decline in per capita GDP and income will be the cause.

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If you are right ford is diluding itself by thinking people are willing to pay more for small cars. The fiesta and next Focus are doomed to fail because Americans do not buy luxurious small cars.

Thank you for intentionally misunderstanding me.

 

Even as compact sales have increased, sales of tiny luxury cars haven't gone anywhere.

 

If there were a legitimate market for cars like the C30, A3, etc., don't you think they'd be moving more than 1700 of them, aggregate, every month?

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1) It wouldn't have sold in lower numbers

 

2) It would cost far far far far less to differentiate a Tracer from a Focus.

Contingency plan,

Unless Ford already planned for the Tracer to have different sheet metal to the Focus,

if you were planning to kill off a brand, it would make sense to have product ready to switch just like that..

 

Or maybe the Focus global project is that big it can absorb that Lincoln sheet metal cost,

perhaps even selling a baby Lincoln in Asia and Europe as the first of several global Lincolns....

Edited by jpd80
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