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The idiocy of a compact Lincoln


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A1 and 1-Series are really subcompacts...not compacts. This Lincoln would go up against the A4 which is their best selling model.

If it's based on the concept C you can bet it's going to be compared with the A3 & 1-Series, not the A4.

 

A4 is priced comparable to the MKZ. You suggesting Ford's going to have a $32k MKC shaped Focus clone? That's an even worse idea than a $25k MKC shaped Focus clone.

 

So think Focus RS.

If the Lincoln LS didn't work a Lincoln RS won't either.

 

I believe the Acura TSX would also be considered the same size class

TSX starting price:

$30k

 

It's more price competitive with the MKZ. No one seems to be suggesting that the MKZ is going anywhere--either to a higher price point or oblivion.

Also, people have been talking about Lincoln going global. A C segment car would be required if they hope to take Lincoln to Europe.

That's a great way for Lincoln to enter Europe. With a knock-off Focus that will cost about the same as a Focus Titanium.

 

Why did you choose A3 and C30? To stack the deck for your argument?

 

Here's why:

 

2007-volvo-c30_jump.jpg

lincoln-concept-c.jpg

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And it's going to be another half-baked budget attempt like the MKZ, but even smaller!

 

Is this their knee-jerk reaction to killing Mercury, maintaining volume with a cheap Lincoln?

MUST be a pacifier for the dealers- and brought to you by the same brain trust that brought us the hugely successful Blackwood, the new what's it called 150 look alike. Oh and we can't forget how they threw the LS out the window instead of running with an initial favorable intro.

 

 

 

 

 

 

wat's

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A4 is effectively Fusion/MKZ sized, however. It's the biggest offering in that segment.

 

Dimensionally, the Focus is comparable to the others, most closely the 3 Series.

 

bzcat brings an excellent point with the S40 and how it's been Volvo's most visible offering.

 

Like I said before, if the car looks NOTHING like the related Focus, it should be decent at least.

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Here you go:

 

Year to date sales of the A3 & Audi:

 

2,539

 

39,839

 

For the C30 & Volvo:

 

1,990

 

23,311

 

YTD sales for Lincoln:

 

37,444

 

Is there anyone here who thinks that a compact Lincoln can be profitable on volume similar to the A3? Not me.

 

Building a compact Lincoln assumes one, if not two things:

 

1) Lincoln is enough of an aspirational brand that customers will gladly suffer the inconveniences of a compact car, in order to own a Lincoln (cf. BMW 1-series).

 

2) That there is a meaningful demand for compact luxury cars period.

 

 

 

Base it on the Fords Escort (20 millions buyers) Richard

 

1977SafariWaldegaard.jpg

 

Ford Escort simply the best selling Ford car of all time, best versions were the RWD versions of the 60s & 70's the FWD versions you got Stateside were absolute boring dull shit but even they were Fords best selling car Stateside for how many years?.

LINK

 

Clark68ScottishRally.jpg

 

tai_best_selling_cars_r3.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Ford Jellymoulds
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Younger car buyers do not associate big=status as old timers. CAFE is not going to be repealed, also, fuel is not ever going to be as cheap as it was in olden days of 1968 & 1998. The Germans are bringing out compacts, since there are madates globally to save fuel. Younger buyers again do not care about size and have no emotional attachment to the 50, 60s and 70s land yachts.

 

 

Maybe I'm "old school" but I prefer bigger cars, but then again my family's almost always had big cars (Grand Cherokees, Expeditions, F-150s) too, so that's what I've been around most of my life. On the other hand, I have a friend who's family has had smaller cars (X-Type, 3 series, etc.) as long as I've known him and he wouldn't even touch his dad's FX35 because he thought it was too big to drive....heck, I drove that FX more times than he did (once)......ironically too, he now drives a 2009 Audi A4 2.0T.

 

Keep this is in context...I was looking up numbers for compact SUV Luxury SUV's..and they don't sell alot either..I was suprised at the BMW X3 numbers and saw a website calling the Acura RDX sales numbers a failure. Who else is playing in this market?

 

 

BMW X3, Acura RDX, Infiniti EX35, Mercedes GLK, and there may be one or two more that I'm forgetting.

 

Or why couldn't Ford do a Lincoln version of the Coupe Cabriolet with the new 2.7 V6 engine...

 

coupe_cabriolet03.jpg

 

 

Hmmmm......the press release today did mention "retractable glass roof" as tech on a Lincoln coming in the next 4 years.....shades.gif

Edited by rmc523
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TSX starts at 29,300, MKZ starts at 34,200. If the "Locus" at $28-29k, there is some breathing room there.

 

You don't get much for your $29k on the TSX. Fake wood, cheap leather, minimal luxury amenities.

 

By the time you've kitted up your TSX to MKZ levels, you're looking at MKZ pricing.

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Cool down Richard, with current and pending fuel economy mandates, within 6 to 10 years a car the size of the Lincoln Concept C might be the heart of the market segment Lincoln will be in.

 

With Mercury going away, there are two directions that Lincoln could go. One is to be a relatively low volume (think current Lincoln nameplate sales numbers) aspirational brand. The other is to boost sales volume by broadening the product range into what are projected to be future growth areas.

The market is changing, and this change will continue, because the customer, and customer tastes are changing. This, along with government mandates, makes future product planning quite a maze. But do you think the market for luxo-barges like the Town Car is growing?

 

And now the issue at hand. A Focus platform based Lincoln. I will withhold judgement until I see it on the floor. But, it is an interesting concept to increase sales volume. It does not have to be marketed as a "small" Lincoln, but as a Lincoln for those who want something sized for their lifestyle. My fear is that it will be packaged as an entry level Lincoln - big mistake. To me the Concept C is a good starting point for this. Have attractive but unique exterior styling that identifyable as a Lincoln with something that no one else offers. In the case of the Concept C that is the interior packaging. This does not have to be a family car. Nor a livery vehicle. It has to be able to seat four in comfort and Lincoln luxury, have excellent driving dynamics, and have Lincoln style. Maybe at a price point above the MKZ. For all we know it may end up being as wide as teh MKZ and close to the same length, while having more interior space (SPACE, not just volume). So what if it is not a luxo-barge, those customers are dying off and not reproducing anymore.

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If these decisions are being made in the board room and not in market research, it means 'Alan = old school Detroit arrogant'

 

Listen, we've heard for three to four years how Ford are different to GM in having a plan and sticking to it,

making smart decisions based on proper corporate governance and sound market research but now you

want to say that Ford are making decisions at the board level without the support of proper market research?

That doesn't ring true....

 

Everything, every alternative has been market researched and Ford have come

down on the side of supporting people that intend buying the Ford brand.

 

It's time to stop catering to people who never intend buying Ford product

and its way past time to start providing more products for people who do....

 

And besides that, the majority of LM dealers support Ford's move in axing Mercury,

those 276 LM dealers who have not partnered up with a Ford dealer - not so much....

Edited by jpd80
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Cool down Richard, with current and pending fuel economy mandates, within 6 to 10 years a car the size of the Lincoln Concept C might be the heart of the market segment Lincoln will be in.

In the first, not likely: large cars didn't go away thirty years ago, when there were considerably fewer options for improving fuel economy.

 

The meat of the US market is probably going to be the 'midsize segment' as it has been for the last fifty years. Maybe the millennials will stay in small cars into their maximum buying years, unlike Gen X and Baby Boomers before them. But as those generations aged up they also bought bigger cars. I seen no reason why Millennials will stick with small cars as their lives become more complicated.

 

do you think the market for luxo-barges like the Town Car is growing?

It does not follow that Lincoln should throw all its resources into D/E sized vehicles because they're not investing in C sized vehicles.

 

it may end up being as wide as teh MKZ and close to the same length

If it is that size and that width it will not be a C segment vehicle.

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now you want to say that Ford are making decisions at the board level without the support of proper market research?

That doesn't ring true....

 

Nothing is permanent. Good decisions in the past are no guarantee of good decisions in the future.

 

This push for a compact Lincoln, to me, smacks of market dictation.

 

Go back to the Cadillac Cimarron. It came out shortly after gas reached its inflation adjusted all time high. It came out at a time when Cadillac was making the most fuel efficient luxury cars on the planet, and it was rated at up to 34mpg highway. It had plenty of electronic gadgets in it.

 

The thinking at GM was that this was the perfect car for the times and that it would expand Cadillac's reach and bring fresh blood into the Cadillac range.

 

It failed miserably.

 

Granted the C2 is a better platform comparatively than the J-Body was for its time, but there are certain assumptions implicit in both product plans: both assume that there is a sizable and untapped market for a compact luxury vehicle.

 

I submit that the returns are in, after three years of rotten economics and lousy gas prices: compact luxury cars priced in the $20s are DOA.

 

The Germans, it seems, love to periodically take a swing at this segment (remember the 318? the A-Class?), and inevitably, they end up shelving the product because it doesn't sell sustainably in this market.

 

One might as well try to sell A-class entry-level product, or $80k priced entry-level branded product.

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Nothing is permanent. Good decisions in the past are no guarantee of good decisions in the future.

 

This push for a compact Lincoln, to me, smacks of market dictation.

 

Go back to the Cadillac Cimarron. It came out shortly after gas reached its inflation adjusted all time high. It came out at a time when Cadillac was making the most fuel efficient luxury cars on the planet, and it was rated at up to 34mpg highway. It had plenty of electronic gadgets in it.

 

The thinking at GM was that this was the perfect car for the times and that it would expand Cadillac's reach and bring fresh blood into the Cadillac range.

 

It failed miserably.

 

Granted the C2 is a better platform comparatively than the J-Body was for its time, but there are certain assumptions implicit in both product plans: both assume that there is a sizable and untapped market for a compact luxury vehicle.

 

I submit that the returns are in, after three years of rotten economics and lousy gas prices: compact luxury cars priced in the $20s are DOA.

 

The Germans, it seems, love to periodically take a swing at this segment (remember the 318? the A-Class?), and inevitably, they end up shelving the product because it doesn't sell sustainably in this market.

 

One might as well try to sell A-class entry-level product, or $80k priced entry-level branded product.

 

Lincoln isn't the only player in this game, Buick is bring us the Excelle (a really ugly thing it is too). I suspect Lincoln and Buick are going after similar customers so either Lincoln is responding to GM, or they are responding to mutually conclusive market research?

 

And like I said, Lincoln customers are completley different, they aren't cross-shopping BMW/Audi/Mercedes too often. The same customers interested in a 1-Series and 3 Series wouldn't be looking at a MKC or MKZ to begin with. American consumers may also respond different to a fuel effecient luxury commuter, and MKZ may evolve in its next interation.

 

I am however increasingly concerned that Ford is showing signs of poor corporate responsibility and not paying attention to its customer research before launching or updating it's products. The Flex is symptomatic of a serious problem and I fear it's spreading (eg. MKT).

Edited by BORG
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I submit that the returns are in, after three years of rotten economics and lousy gas prices: compact luxury cars priced in the $20s are DOA.

 

The Germans, it seems, love to periodically take a swing at this segment (remember the 318? the A-Class?), and inevitably, they end up shelving the product because it doesn't sell sustainably in this market.

 

The BMW 1-class doesn't seem to be going away any time soon...

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Richard, you are way, way, way too much overthinking this.

 

From a big picture perspective, Ford have decided to simplify its business yet again. To contiinue to support Mercury would be inconsistent with Mullaly's 'One Ford' strategy, since Mercury would never be taken global. Lincoln, on the other hand, at least has the potential to be taken global at some point in the future. In the meantime, Lincoln branded vehicles are the best choice going forward to supply the dealer base with saleable product, and fill out the volume needs of the plants. At the end of the day, Ford isn't cutting any product from the marketplace, they are realigning the offerings into two distinct categories - Ford and Lincoln. Presuming that Ford continues the policy of giving Lincolns bespoke sheetmetal when there is a true model change (not midcycle updates), then the Lincoln products have the chance to be favorably compared with Audi (fwd/awd), BMW (new compact fwd announced), Acura (fwd), etc. This might also be the impetus for Ford to be able to make a business case for a global rwd chassis that could underpin larger Lincolns as well. There's a lot here about which to be optimtistic.

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Nothing is permanent. Good decisions in the past are no guarantee of good decisions in the future.

 

This push for a compact Lincoln, to me, smacks of market dictation.

 

I can accept that and you have a welter of examples of past attempts to do a

C car luxury that failed to live up to expectations. It brings us back to why is

Ford doing this with Lincoln and, what type of C car are they intending?

 

Today has been a day of high drama and emotion, I think we all need time to

process what has happened and what Ford is actually proposing, the details

are still sketchy and I'm not sure whether the C- car will have the new 2.7 V6

or not, the communication from Ford is designed to pique interest without them

giving too much away.

 

I'd rather be confident that an interesting vehicle is planned but remain cautious

until we really see just what it is that Ford is giving Lincoln, the result may be surprising...

 

If Ford are intent on an MKC, perhaps we're better discussing what kind of vehicle

has a shot and what types of mistakes Ford needs to avoid with a small luxury,

one obvious one is to ensure interior space regardless of external dimensions,

the current global Focus has a shoulder width of around 55.5", which is like 2" wider

than the current US Focus and half way towards an MKZ. That adds another variable

in the scheme of things... I'd see that width as the absolute minimum for a luxury car.

Edited by jpd80
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I think we may just be putting the cart before the horse here a little anyway. Per the press release, all that was mentioned was Lincoln entering the C-segment for the first time. It made no mention of what type of vehicle it will be. I think it's just as likely (if not more so) that this statement was in reference to a CUV and not a sedan/hatchback. :shrug:

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The meat of the US market is probably going to be the 'midsize segment' as it has been for the last fifty years. Maybe the millennials will stay in small cars into their maximum buying years, unlike Gen X and Baby Boomers before them. But as those generations aged up they also bought bigger cars. I seen no reason why Millennials will stick with small cars as their lives become more complicated.

 

Strange, but I actually find myself agreeing with you. Most folks on this list don’t seem to realize it but Ford is (largely) betting its future on C-class vehicles. As we speak, both Michigan Assembly and Louisville Assembly are being gutted so as to produce the Focus and other vehicles off this platform. That’s a lot of C-class vehicles. The question, in the very near future, will be if Ford can sell these to Americans accustomed to much larger vehicles.

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I think we may just be putting the cart before the horse here a little anyway. Per the press release, all that was mentioned was Lincoln entering the C-segment for the first time. It made no mention of what type of vehicle it will be. I think it's just as likely (if not more so) that this statement was in reference to a CUV and not a sedan/hatchback. :shrug:

Give that man a cigar, Ford's press release said C Segment vehicle, not car.....

 

Could we be looking at Kuga?

It was the vehicle Mulally originally wanted to import from Germany for Lincoln...

Now that would make sense, give sufficient room and have Ecoboost engine on board.

Edited by jpd80
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I think we may just be putting the cart before the horse here a little anyway. Per the press release, all that was mentioned was Lincoln entering the C-segment for the first time. It made no mention of what type of vehicle it will be. I think it's just as likely (if not more so) that this statement was in reference to a CUV and not a sedan/hatchback. :shrug:

 

Do they give CUVs/SUVs the same class designators as passenger cars though?

 

I mean, I've never heard the Flex or Freestyle/Taurus X spoken of as a D-segment vehicle.

 

Plus, if the new car were a CUV, that would give Lincoln more SUVs than sedans. Sounds like a weird mix to me for a luxury marque.

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According to Ford's press release, Lincoln is going to be competing against Cadillac and Lexus.

 

I previously admired Ford for not saying they were competing with any one or two brands ( ala Cadillac the "BMW fighter"). Look like that's out the window too.

 

So if their primary competitors are Cadillac and Lexus we can expect vanilla, RWD, V8 suddenly accelerating hybrids that are BMW fighters? ;)

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According to Ford's press release, Lincoln is going to be competing against Cadillac and Lexus.

 

I previously admired Ford for not saying they were competing with any one or two brands ( ala Cadillac the "BMW fighter"). Look like that's out the window too.

 

So if their primary competitors are Cadillac and Lexus we can expect vanilla, RWD, V8 suddenly accelerating hybrids that are BMW fighters? ;)

There is a difference.

It's OK for Lincoln to compete with Cadillac and Lexus because from their own perspectives,

Lexus competes with no one and Cadillac is a BMW fighter company...

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