Has anybody here built a "Clevor" engine?

[atvman]

A few weeks ago, I ran into a guy running a "Clevor" engine in a Fox Mustang. He had a set of ported 2V 351C heads on a 351W block. He said the engine was pretty strong. I did some digging and I found that the engines really aren't too hard to build and that they are supposed to be stronger than even a modified a 351W when built right. Has anybody here ever built one or know somebody who has built one?

[Edstock]

IIRC, the BOSS 302 was essentially a 4-bolt Windsor with Cleveland heads.

[goinbroke2]

Yup built a couple over the years, what do you want to know?

 

To expand a bit, I've run 4v C heads on a built 400 pulltruck, numerous 351C's in stockcars, 351W with 2bbl C heads with a homemade intake, 351W with M heads and streetboss intake.

The issues are finding/building an intake.

Limit of valve lift due to stock pistons/canted valves

Get aftermarket clevor pistons

drill coolant holes round and hammer in a plug then drill out a new water passage

 

Other notes, just changing the water passages as per motorsport book works but in a high heat situation it helps to tap into the coolant at the back of the intake and bring the water forward to keep cyl's 4 and 8 from overheating (scuffing walls)

 

Clevor in a fox? Feel sorry for him when it comes to the mess with headers. I built a set of headers for a 351C in a fox a few years ago....never again....

With the availability of aftermarket heads for the windsor (which outflow stock C castings) it doesn't make much sense to build one anymore. But you can build a damn cheap and powerfull engine if you want to work at it.

 

I forget now but I was looking into using 400 pistons in a W. Shorter piston pin height..but I don't remember, but I think it was 400 piston,400 head and homemade intake. Any kind of cam you run of course is bigger than the original spec's due to the 1.73 ratio instead of 1.6

3.85 stroker crank in a W with boss 302 pistons and M heads would be a beast. Boss 396? LOL!

 

definately old school, which makes it cool anyway, but more power can be had with new W castings.

 

Oh yeah, use mpg port plates on the exh side (or make your own) they really do work!

[blksn8k2]

The current "old" version of the Ford NASCAR 5.8L engine (prior to FR9) is essentially a Windsor block with highly modified aluminum Cleveland style heads.

 

I don't know anyone with a 351 Clevor but a friend has a 36 Ford coupe with a 302 that has 2V Cleveland heads.

[goinbroke2]

IIRC, the BOSS 302 was essentially a 4-bolt Windsor with Cleveland heads.

 

The boss blocks had much more meat in the webs and the frost plug ports were thicker for the screw in frost plugs.

 

In theory yes it was a 302 with C heads but that kind of takes away from what was actually involved.

[blksn8k2]

Yup built a couple over the years, what do you want to know?

 

To expand a bit, I've run 4v C heads on a built 400 pulltruck, numerous 351C's in stockcars, 351W with 2bbl C heads with a homemade intake, 351W with M heads and streetboss intake.

The issues are finding/building an intake.

Limit of valve lift due to stock pistons/canted valves

Get aftermarket clevor pistons

drill coolant holes round and hammer in a plug then drill out a new water passage

 

Other notes, just changing the water passages as per motorsport book works but in a high heat situation it helps to tap into the coolant at the back of the intake and bring the water forward to keep cyl's 4 and 8 from overheating (scuffing walls)

 

Clevor in a fox? Feel sorry for him when it comes to the mess with headers. I built a set of headers for a 351C in a fox a few years ago....never again....

With the availability of aftermarket heads for the windsor (which outflow stock C castings) it doesn't make much sense to build one anymore. But you can build a damn cheap and powerfull engine if you want to work at it.

 

I forget now but I was looking into using 400 pistons in a W. Shorter piston pin height..but I don't remember, but I think it was 400 piston,400 head and homemade intake. Any kind of cam you run of course is bigger than the original spec's due to the 1.73 ratio instead of 1.6

3.85 stroker crank in a W with boss 302 pistons and M heads would be a beast. Boss 396? LOL!

 

definately old school, which makes it cool anyway, but more power can be had with new W castings.

 

Oh yeah, use mpg port plates on the exh side (or make your own) they really do work!

 

I considered building a 408 Clevor for my 75 Bronco. I have a Windsor block and a 400M crank and several sets of 2V Cleveland heads. However, like you say, after seeing all the issues with finding/building an intake, no available headers, etc., etc., I stayed with Windsor style heads. I used a Windsor block stroked to 393 using a Scat steel crank, 11:1 TRWs, Roush 200 iron heads, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, 750 Holley, Comp cam and L&L long tube headers. I am also using a New Venture 3550 5-speed bolted to the Dana 20 transfer case. Pulls like hell.

[jpd80]

With the array of modern wedge heads available these days,

there's no need for Cleveland heads on a Windsor block anymore....

Edited May 20, 2010 by jpd80

[wildosvt]

The last few years were won by a Clevor in the Engine masters build off IIRC.

[coupe3w]

With the array of modern wedge heads available these days,

there's no need for Cleveland heads on a Windsor block anymore....

 

Fixed it for you...

With the array of modern Cleveland heads available these days,

there's no need for Windsor heads on Windsor blocks anymore...

Edited May 20, 2010 by coupe3w

[wildosvt]

Fixed it for you...

With the array of modern Cleveland heads available these days,

there's no need for Windsor heads on Windsor blocks anymore...

 

 

A-men.

[therealmrmustang]

 

The last few years were won by a Clevor in the Engine masters build off IIRC.

 

 

 

Not so... Jon Kaase's dominating, 4-time winning Ford is a 400M. A bastard engine that most people throw away.

[wildosvt]

Not so... Jon Kaase's dominating, 4-time winning Ford is a 400M. A bastard engine that most people throw away.

 

 

I stand corrected. I just knew I smiled knowing it won.

[matthewq4b]

Not so... Jon Kaase's dominating, 4-time winning Ford is a 400M. A bastard engine that most people throw away.

 

 

Not sure I would call the 400 a bastard engine. The 400 is to the 351C what the 351W is to the 302. The bastard engine is the 351M a 400 destroked to 351 CID. That would be like taking a 351W and destroking it to 302. (the 400 was not an 400M just 400, the M stood for modified in the 351M)

 

The 400 was a decent engine, it was just smogged to death and saddled with a 2bbl carb for it's whole life (save for the first year) A set of 4V clevland quench heads (in fact any 4V 351C head), port plates a bigger cam , a decent Intake and 4bbl carb and they were monsters with massive amounts of torque, mind you that was back in the day when you still get the good stuff (110 octane leaded gasoline) and coud run the quench heads with out detonation all over the place.. The 400 is definetly one of Ford's more under appreciated motor's.

 

 

Matthew

[7Mary3]

I had a lot of names for the 400 back in the day..... The above posts are right, for most of it's life the 400 was a smogged out big car/light truck engine. There is performance potential in there somewhere. In light trucks, they all had Motorcraft 2bbl. carburetors, and the heads had this goofy integral air injection system thay really screwed up the exhaust ports. The combustion chamber design was supposedly a problem too. Something about the quench area requiring low compression and retarded spark to limit detonation. But with the right intake, cam, and heads you could make something out of them.

Edited May 21, 2010 by 7Mary3

[goinbroke2]

Speaking of detonation, being young and impressionable at the time, I was running a 351C with open chamber 4bbl heads and swapped to closed chamber. I forget what the comp ratio was but on high test it would rattle at anything more than 1/2 throttle. I tried the "mothballs in the tank" trick that some swore would cure all, other said it would do nothing and yet others said it would blow up the engine. Well, in a 73 mustang with 351C,292cam,4.56 gear,etc,etc it did cure it! It certainly didn't take one or two though like some suggested. I think I poured 25-30 every other tank or so.(which was fairly often LOL)

 

People say stuff like that today and I go riiiiiight....

 

But it did work, I even ran tankfulls through it without adding them and the detonation would come back, repeated it a few times.

 

The canted valve open chambers had basically no quench so would detonate, the close chambered were better but the octane available made them detonate. Maybe a 9:1 close chamber would of worked, but 9:1?? Come on! 12:1 pop ups were the entry fee into "cool car" status back them hahaha.

And I got caught running open on one side and close chamber on the other side of my stock car when they did compression checks. 165psi all you were allowed, they always checked the plug I had pulled and always read 145-155 or something like that. Somebody caught on and they checked the other side...220haha.

 

Ah, good times with a fathead.

[jpd80]

There was two way to go with the Aussie Clevelands,

 

1) Use flat top pistons and mill 40 or 50 thou off the open chamber heads acheiving a useable 10:1 compression ratio, the 2V heads could be helped with 4V valves and some porting.

 

2) Use the 302 Cleveland closed chamber 2v head with the Quench area reduced slightly by laying back the quench walls next to the spark plug and on the opposite sides. That gave a semi closed chamber similar to the 4V closed chamber heads...

 

Edited May 21, 2010 by jpd80

[200MPHCOBRA]

I used to race the 351C4V, and always wished we could get the Aussie stuff. I read "Pro Stock Pinto" about a thousand times. . Better blocks and all. At about 550hp the 2 bolt Cleveland blocks would start splitting 0.060 over cylinders at the slightest detonation. Started filling the block with grout (1978) and couldn't cool the damn thing down before the next round when I got past 2-3 rounds of eliminations. Nascar racers would "pin" the block using bolts, drill and tap the block and bare them up against the weak points in the cylinders to stop them from splitting, but I never tried it. I remember later the trick was to run a Windsor block with a long rod (2.1-2.2 rod to stroke) and Cleveland heads...........worked so good the factory started selling its race stuff that way. The first race stuff used Windsor deck height, but used smaller journal Cleveland crank and head style.....I was into the 385's by then..............Even now I still would love to build a big inch fuel injected Cleveland, I really loved those motors. Way ahead of their time. NHRA finally had to kill them by going to 500 ci. At the end Glidden was carrying .3lbs/ci more than the destroked BBC's and still winning 9-10 events a year.

[atvman]

Trick Flow makes a set of 351C heads that are supposed to be ready to mount on a 351W or 302. I'm pretty sure Edelbrock makes an intake manifold for the conversion as well.

[coupe3w]

If you guy's want to find out what is going on in the Cleveland world check out this link.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

Edited May 21, 2010 by coupe3w

[therealmrmustang]

 

 

Not sure I would call the 400 a bastard engine. The 400 is to the 351C what the 351W is to the 302. The bastard engine is the 351M a 400 destroked to 351 CID. That would be like taking a 351W and destroking it to 302. (the 400 was not an 400M just 400, the M stood for modified in the 351M)

 

The 400 was a decent engine, it was just smogged to death and saddled with a 2bbl carb for it's whole life (save for the first year) A set of 4V clevland quench heads (in fact any 4V 351C head), port plates a bigger cam , a decent Intake and 4bbl carb and they were monsters with massive amounts of torque, mind you that was back in the day when you still get the good stuff (110 octane leaded gasoline) and coud run the quench heads with out detonation all over the place.. The 400 is definetly one of Ford's more under appreciated motor's.

 

 

Matthew

 

 

While I do agree that the 400 is underappreciated, it isn't the most modification friendly. No race style intake manifolds, and the 429/460 style bellhousing pattern isn't friendly in the swap department. And just how many people are building race engines out of derelict 400s? I have just one answer... None. The fact is there are more people building and modifying Y-blocks than tall-deck Clevelands. I might even venture to say that the tall Clevelands are right down there with the MEL (383, 410, 430, 462) as far as sought after engines for the automotive hobby. Maybe not a bastard, but definitely an orphan.

 

That aside... the 400 has always had incredible potential. I used to tell my brand X friends in shop class in the early 80's about building a bad ass 400 and they all thought I was insane. The fact that Jon Kaase took a junk yard 400 and made a 4-time Engine Masters Challenge winner (...with the very same engine) is not only testament to his engine building prowess, he knew and was able to unlock its hidden potential.

 

All this does for me is fuel dreams of a mid 70's Torino or Montego with a rippin' 400. What a sleeper it would be!

Edited May 21, 2010 by therealmrmustang

[coupe3w]

While I do agree that the 400 is underappreciated, it isn't the most modification friendly. No race style intake manifolds, and the 429/460 style bellhousing pattern isn't friendly in the swap department. And just how many people are building race engines out of derelict 400s? I have just one answer... None. The fact is there are more people building and modifying Y-blocks than tall-deck Clevelands. I might even venture to say that the tall Clevelands are right down there with the MEL (383, 410, 430, 462) as far as sought after engines for the automotive hobby. Maybe not a bastard, but definitely an orphan.

 

That aside... the 400 has always had incredible potential. I used to tell my brand X friends in shop class in the early 80's about building a bad ass 400 and they all thought I was insane. The fact that Jon Kaase took a junk yard 400 and made a 4-time Engine Masters Challenge winner (...with the very same engine) is not only testament to his engine building prowess, he knew and was able to unlock its hidden potential.

 

All this does for me is fuel dreams of a mid 70's Torino or Montego with a rippin' 400. What a sleeper it would be!

I think the reason why you don't see the tall deck 400 being used much is because they are a bit more difficult to fit in the Mustang,Falcon,Fairlane,Maverick,etc, engine bay.

[jpd80]

I think the reason why you don't see the tall deck 400 being used much is because they are a bit more difficult to fit in the Mustang,Falcon,Fairlane,Maverick,etc, engine bay.

we went through this a few years back with Aussie Falcons, the feeling was that you either did a stroker Cleveland (378) or made the move to 429/460 Lima engine. The 400 had too many unique parts to really make it practical, the problem being aftermarket parts for the big blocks were easier to source and in the end you get get ot brag about having a 429 or 460...

[coupe3w]

we went through this a few years back with Aussie Falcons, the feeling was that you either did a stroker Cleveland (378) or made the move to 429/460 Lima engine. The 400 had too many unique parts to really make it practical, the problem being aftermarket parts for the big blocks were easier to source and in the end you get get ot brag about having a 429 or 460...

Good point.

[jpvbs]

I was of the understanding that Clevors made sense 25 years ago when Cleveland heads were a better than anything available for a W. With the abundance of good Windsor head options now, why do a Clevor? I'm not trolling, I'm sure there is some logic to it, but I need someone to explain it.

[therealmrmustang]

I was of the understanding that Clevors made sense 25 years ago when Cleveland heads were a better than anything available for a W. With the abundance of good Windsor head options now, why do a Clevor? I'm not trolling, I'm sure there is some logic to it, but I need someone to explain it.

 

 

The NASCAR engine prior to the approval of the current FR9 is essentially a "Clevor" (Windsor design block, Cleveland design head).

 

The cylinder head design that originated with the Boss 302 and the successive Cleveland design engines, and that has evolved over the last 30+ years (Ford Motorsport, Yates, CHI, etc.) is still the best flowing cylinder head of its type (push rod-OHV). Period. If you want to build big power... it is the Yates and the CHI evolution of the original Cleveland design.

 

Just ask Billy Glidden and most of those guys in the Pro 5.0 and Outlaw 10.5 drag racing classes.