silvrsvt Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Well around these parts (CO), the Gen I & II Explorer's were used quite a bit for off-roading. You can still see quite a few on the trails and back roads today. When the Gen III Explorer was released in '02 with the IRS, most people in these parts, who used the Explorer for off-road purposes, moved away from it. The Gen I was more capable than the Gen II with its TTB than the IFS. Of course most people I know opted for the manual locking hubs, or replaced the electronic locking hubs for manuals. I understand this point, and financially is most likely the best route. But then again to me this is not what an Explorer is or should be and why I agree with Blueblood on this getting a name change. I guess your forgetting that the 1st Gen Explorer was based on the Ranger to replace the Bronco II, which had some major issues with not being safe. Thus why its popular with off roaders. Its not like people where taking brand new ones and lifting the hell out of them. Does it really matter what people do with a car 5-10-15 years after it makes a sale to Ford, for them to really care about it? The Explorer was SUV of the 1990's and was the Soccer Mom vehicle of the decade and into the 2000's, not a off roader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 and why I agree with Blueblood on this getting a name change. The NAME is the only reason why this vehicle is going to carry on. Without the equity of the Explorer brand, there is really no point to this vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Why is everyone assured the next Explorer will be FWD? "Regarding police vehicles used for high-speed pursuit, Farley said he sees a transition from "the legacy products" to awd or fwd unibody vehicles in the long term, and possibly unibody rwd crossovers as an interim solution." Might the 2011 Explorer be the RWD unibody interim solution that Farly refers to? A friend who works at Sterling Axle (Ford) told me the RDU program under development is for the Explorer. ( RDU-rear drive unit ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Why is everyone assured the next Explorer will be FWD? "Regarding police vehicles used for high-speed pursuit, Farley said he sees a transition from "the legacy products" to awd or fwd unibody vehicles in the long term, and possibly unibody rwd crossovers as an interim solution." Might the 2011 Explorer be the RWD unibody interim solution that Farly refers to? A friend who works at Sterling Axle (Ford) told me the RDU program under development is for the Explorer. ( RDU-rear drive unit ) If it's RWD, it has been the best-kept secret at Ford since...well...maybe ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) I guess your forgetting that the 1st Gen Explorer was based on the Ranger to replace the Bronco II, which had some major issues with not being safe. Thus why its popular with off roaders. Its not like people where taking brand new ones and lifting the hell out of them. Does it really matter what people do with a car 5-10-15 years after it makes a sale to Ford, for them to really care about it? The Explorer was SUV of the 1990's and was the Soccer Mom vehicle of the decade and into the 2000's, not a off roader. Yes I know the Explorer was based on the Ranger/Bronco II design. I owned one of them Rangers and auntie owned a Bronco II. One of my best friends had a '92 Explorer while I owned my Ranger. Now the Bronco II was rated as unsafe simply due to the roll-over aspect, but then again, review all 2-door SUV's of the time and tell me which were considerably safer? Cherokee? S10 Blazer? 4-Runner? All had a high center of gravity and were prone to roll. And yes, I was talking about practically brand new Explorers at that time. Sure today they are now 10-15 and nearly 20yrs old, but that doesn't change the fact many were building up these 1-3yr old Gen I Explorers to compete off-road. Even the Gen II's were having this done. I have yet to see this this done with any Explorers from the '02 MY on. Like I stated, I don't doubt there were many more soccer moms buying them than off-roaders, and why I said financially this may be the best route to take for Ford. But for us enthusiasts, that used an Explorer for off-roading, this move is pratically neutering the Explorer from what it debut as. Edited December 8, 2009 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 But for us enthusiasts, that used an Explorer for off-roading, this move is pratically neutering the Explorer from what it debut as. Understandable but its almost like catering to people who buy used CVPI...theres no point in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) If it was still selling worth a crap, they probably would have kept the RWD/BOF configuration. But, as it is selling now, that's simply a money-losing proposition. Share a platform or cancel it were probably the only two choices, and well, there's too much value in the Explorer brand to cancel it. The NAME is the only reason why this vehicle is going to carry on. Without the equity of the Explorer brand, there is really no point to this vehicle. These two posts, to me anyways, seem to contradict themselves. The Explorer isn't selling worth crap, basically saying the consumer has moved away from the Explorer. Whether this is due to RWD/BOF setup or not, we don't know for sure. Yeah the CUV craze has started, so Ford decided to move it into that category to try and boost sales. Will it work? Only time will tell. So if people have moved away from the Explorer, what equity is left in the Explorer name to turn things around? Won't there be that perception out there that it's just another Explorer, whether that's bad or good? How is it going to be marketed as different from past Explorers and and improvement over previous models? Edited December 8, 2009 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 These two posts, to me anyways, seem to contradict themselves. The Explorer isn't selling worth crap, basically saying the consumer has moved away from the Explorer. Whether this is due to RWD/BOF setup or not, we don't know for sure. Yeah the CUV craze has started, so Ford decided to move it into that category to try and boost sales. Will it work? Only time will tell. So if people have moved away from the Explorer, what equity is left in the Explorer name to turn things around? Won't there be that perception out there that it's just another Explorer, whether that's bad or good? How is it going to be marketed as different from past Explorers and and improvement over previous models? The equity is that Ford sold millions of them in the past. A fresh new version of the Explorer might entice a lot of those previous owners to revisit it. It would be a heck of a lot easier than trying to market a brand new vehicle with a brand new name to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Like I stated, I don't doubt there were many more soccer moms buying them than off-roaders, and why I said financially this may be the best route to take for Ford. But for us enthusiasts, that used an Explorer for off-roading, this move is pratically neutering the Explorer from what it debut as. It's business. When the highest volume customer does not care if a feature is included (BOF), and eliminating that feature can save cost and, more importantly, help you meet CAFE, you do it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The Explorer isn't selling worth crap, basically saying the consumer has moved away from the Explorer. Whether this is due to RWD/BOF setup or not, we don't know for sure. Yeah the CUV craze has started, so Ford decided to move it into that category to try and boost sales. Will it work? Only time will tell. All car sales are still in the toilet. Look at CUV sales (Edge and Flex). Their sales are nothing exciting. Perhaps potential Explorer customers just can not justify the poor fuel economy any longer. Slightly off topic, I just want to know why Escape sales are lumped in with CUVs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Understandable but its almost like catering to people who buy used CVPI...theres no point in it. It's business. When the highest volume customer does not care if a feature is included (BOF), and eliminating that feature can save cost and, more importantly, help you meet CAFE, you do it ! It seems Toyota continues the old SUV 4-Runner platform. For those looking for better ride CUV, they have the Highlander and Venza for their FWD/AWD slots. They also offer the off-road capable FJ, even if it has questionable styling and poor site lines. The equity is that Ford sold millions of them in the past. A fresh new version of the Explorer might entice a lot of those previous owners to revisit it. It would be a heck of a lot easier than trying to market a brand new vehicle with a brand new name to them. Understandable. But at the same time, a lot of people were turned away from the Explorer due to the Firestone recall, the many many transmission failures and hub failures for a few notorious items. Ford has moved away from the Contour name (bad example) to the Fusion. And why not use the Bronco II name rather than the Escape name, when referring to a compact SUV. Lincoln and Mercury have practially renamed all their vehicles as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The equity is that Ford sold millions of them in the past. A fresh new version of the Explorer might entice a lot of those previous owners to revisit it. It would be a heck of a lot easier than trying to market a brand new vehicle with a brand new name to them. Exactly, The Explorer name isn't damaged, even after all that BS with the tires. The biggest issue is that the MPGs aren't there for what people want with gas costing as much as it does now. If they can get 30 MPG out of next Gen model, they'll have no problem selling the hell out of them. I know my sister hates her new Escape because it doesn't have the same room as her old Explorer (don't get me started on that, it was her husbands fault LOL) but shes really interested in getting an Explorer that can get better MPG then her old one and maybe even her Escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 And why not use the Bronco II name rather than the Escape name, when referring to a compact SUV. WTF? The Bronco II was even worse then the Explorer with being associated with being a deathtrap Lincoln and Mercury have practially renamed all their vehicles as well. As for these two...its all about who was running the marketing department at the time. Lincoln needs/needed to get rid of its "Old Man Car" image it had, and Mercury was put into the same boat as Ford, with everything getting a name that started with M, just like everything at Ford had to get an F name. The other issue is that look at the two most successful cars on the market...the Accord and Camry, they have excellent name recognition and when people ask what type of car to get, your unwashed masses fill in those two names. Ford needs to keep the names the same on its products for longer then 5 years like it has been doing to build equity in that name. Its in the process of building that in the Fusion and rebuilding the Taurus name. Blame GM for encouraging the train of thought of "lets change the name because its new, and newer is always better"...and see whats happened with them the past 20-30 years doing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 It seems that people want them because they have a traditional image of being capable, "tough" machines. But if they don't have any of those attributes anymore, how long will it take before its image becomes just a (not very efficient) people mover. At least now, even if most don't need it, people can brag that it has at least modest offroadability and heritiage, tows X000 lbs, has a low range if they want to rock crawl, and can even get a cool sounding V8 if they like. However, that being said, it seems that Toyota and Honda have had success without having any real off off road/truck like capability. I'd like to see an FX4 package available on the new Explorer (similar to the RR LR2), giving it the ability to handle some medium difficulty trails. Maybe a little extra ground clearance, skid plates, lockable center diff, selectable rear locker(?). It might help to continue the "tough" reputation of the Explorer, if that is the image they are going for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) However, that being said, it seems that Toyota and Honda have had success without having any real off off road/truck like capability. 4-Runner, FJ, Land Cruiser and Tacoma. All are great stock off-road vehicles. And I hate Toyota, but they dominate the trails, other than Wranglers. Sure an LR here and there, as there are some old Gen I Broncos. Honda, now that's a different story. Edited December 8, 2009 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Except for those that make it an off road capable SUV. Which is why they should change the name. Calling a FWD unibody station wagon an Explorer makes about as much sense as calling a FWD BOF truck a Mustang (Does one exist?). I just see it now, the 2013 Mazda Miata, Mazda's response to the Honda Ridgeline!! since when has the Explorer REALLY been considered off road capable?.....SERIOUSLY.....its always been an on road boulevarder with MILD 4x4 aspirations..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 4-Runner, FJ, Land Cruiser and Tacoma. All are great stock off-road vehicles. And I hate Toyota, but they dominate the trails, other than Wranglers. Sure an LR here and there, as there are some old Gen I Broncos. Honda, now that's a different story. I was thinking more specifically the highlander/pilot. I doesn't look like the Explorer will compete directly with the 4 Runner anymore. BTW, I am also no Toyota fan, but I am impressed by the new 4 Runner. It sounds to be very capable, probably the best yet from a off road point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 since when has the Explorer REALLY been considered off road capable?.....SERIOUSLY.....its always been an on road boulevarder with MILD 4x4 aspirations..... In that sense, you'd have to say practially every SUV, with the exception of the Wrangler, is a on road boulevarder. At one time, the Explorer was dominating the trails. Sure you had to build them up slightly, as you did with Cherokees and S10's and what not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I was thinking more specifically the highlander/pilot. I doesn't look like the Explorer will compete directly with the 4 Runner anymore. BTW, I am also no Toyota fan, but I am impressed by the new 4 Runner. It sounds to be very capable, probably the best yet from a off road point of view. I see. And yeah, the Explorer took a different route in '02 when they went for more ride quality and luxury while the 4-Runner stayed more true to it's roots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 In that sense, you'd have to say practially every SUV, with the exception of the Wrangler, is a on road boulevarder. At one time, the Explorer was dominating the trails. Sure you had to build them up slightly, as you did with Cherokees and S10's and what not. my point exactly....only the minute niche market is up in arms and SPECULATING failure because THEY feel THEY are not being catered too........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I see. And yeah, the Explorer took a different route in '02 when they went for more ride quality and luxury while the 4-Runner stayed more true to it's roots. Well, the 4Runner isn't exactly burning up the sales charts, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Well, the 4Runner isn't exactly burning up the sales charts, is it? true off road capability comes at a price and is only appealing to a true niche market....appeal to the mainstream buyer that maybe takes Muffy up to Aspen occasionally, and perhaps offer a limited production off road model for the bushshirt boys....point is Ford is after profitability NOT hard core niche markets.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) my point exactly....only the minute niche market is up in arms and SPECULATING failure because THEY feel THEY are not being catered too........ true off road capability comes at a price and is only appealing to a true niche market....appeal to the mainstream buyer that maybe takes Muffy up to Aspen occasionally, and perhaps offer a limited production off road model for the bushshirt boys....point is Ford is after profitability NOT hard core niche markets.... The F150 is now a very common people mover, especially the Screw models. It sales huge, just like the Explorer once did. What if Ford decided to remove the SRA and install an IRS (like the Expy)? What if they moved it from RWD to FWD? How about making it a uni/unit body design? Hey, it'd satisfy the soccer moms and people mover crowd, but how well do you think this would go over with the more working class that use their truck for work, towing or off-roading? We could call it the Ford Ridgeline. I guess those using the F150 as a work truck would then be considered a niche market? I bet that would go over real well. Ford has 2 true CUV's (Flex & Edge) that cover 5-7 passengers. Now they'll have a 3rd that overlaps the previous two, all while leaving the 5-7 passenger mid-size SUV market bare? So having 3 overlapping vehicles in the same segment is okay, all while leaving the mini-van and mid-size SUV segments with nothing. Talking about putting all your eggs in one basket. Edited December 8, 2009 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 The F150 is now a very common people mover, especially the Screw models. It sales huge, just like the Explorer once did. What if Ford decided to remove the SRA and install an IRS (like the Expy)? What if they moved it from RWD to FWD? How about making it a uni/unit body design? Hey, it'd satisfy the soccer moms and people mover crowd, but how well do you think this would go over with the more working class that use their truck for work, towing or off-roading? We could call it the Ford Ridgeline. I guess those using the F150 as a work truck would then be considered a niche market? I bet that would go over real well. Ford has 2 true CUV's (Flex & Edge) that cover 5-7 passengers. Now they'll have a 3rd that overlaps the previous two, all while leaving the 5-7 passenger mid-size SUV market bare? So having 3 overlapping vehicles in the same segment is okay, all while leaving the mini-van and mid-size SUV segments with nothing. Talking about putting all your eggs in one basket. Silly comparison.... real quick answer...what is the F-150's primary purpose? Its a truck, otherwise you would have bought something else WITHOUT a bed @9000lb towing that could carry people....What would you say if ford went the OTHER route, made it a true rockcrawler with a buckboard ride complete with am 8 inch lift?....or a 20000lb tower with 6 mpgs....my point is you compromise the best way you can to cater to the MAJOR chunk of the market...otherwise you LOSE more sales than you gain............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) The F150 is now a very common people mover, especially the Screw models. It sales huge, just like the Explorer once did. What if Ford decided to remove the SRA and install an IRS (like the Expy)? What if they moved it from RWD to FWD? How about making it a uni/unit body design? Hey, it'd satisfy the soccer moms and people mover crowd, but how well do you think this would go over with the more working class that use their truck for work, towing or off-roading? We could call it the Ford Ridgeline. I guess those using the F150 as a work truck would then be considered a niche market? I bet that would go over real well. Ford has 2 true CUV's (Flex & Edge) that cover 5-7 passengers. Now they'll have a 3rd that overlaps the previous two, all while leaving the 5-7 passenger mid-size SUV market bare? So having 3 overlapping vehicles in the same segment is okay, all while leaving the mini-van and mid-size SUV segments with nothing. Talking about putting all your eggs in one basket. and guess what...all 3 are styled differently.....and one cannot compare the Edge and flex...they are TOTALLY different beasts...but irrespective,,, some buy and Edge based on styling and vice versa.... Edited December 8, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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