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Climategate; ManBearPig dead?


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245 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   retro-man

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Posted 21 November 2009 - 10:18 PM

..... albeit much less than I have regarding government's ability to design a healthcare system, change the climate, and make all people care.

Don't forget democratizing the entire Middle East! ;)

Our infrastructure is like much of the rest of the country: "thanks grandpa and great-grandpa, we'll just rest for a few generations now and not do anything." At any rate, it hasn't been a problem until recently. Now it is.







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#22 OFFLINE   jpd80

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 02:52 AM

Disneyland?


Renewable energy, Dumbo's magic feather........
Posted Image

Edited by jpd80, 22 November 2009 - 02:55 AM.


#23 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 08:27 AM

Our infrastructure is like much of the rest of the country: "thanks grandpa and great-grandpa, we'll just rest for a few generations now and not do anything." At any rate, it hasn't been a problem until recently. Now it is.

And therein lies the problem. The money that should have gone into improving every citizen's life, instead likely went into some worthless civic artwork, welfare (related) program, or expanding the omnipresence of government in ways it should not have.

Like I said earlier, we have at least one reservoir that we haven't tapped yet, but that isn't stopping us from building a new ($250 Million) reservoir at Little River. There is nothing that makes us special, we just have a different way of doing things. Of course it doesn't help that one of our major water sources is about 2000 acres smaller than designed (Jordan Lake). Unfortunately a little miscalculation by the Corps of Engineers contributed to that one.

Edited by RangerM, 22 November 2009 - 08:28 AM.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#24 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 09:39 AM

Then where do we go from here?

To work....

A George Will column.....

Oil's Expanding Frontiers
George Will
Sunday, November 22, 2009

WASHINGTON -- What city contributed most to the making of the modern world? The Paris of the Enlightenment and then of Napoleon, pioneer of mass armies and nationalist statism? London, seat of parliamentary democracy and center of finance? Or perhaps Titusville, Pa.

Oil seeping from the ground there was collected for medicinal purposes -- until Edwin Drake drilled and 150 years ago -- Aug. 27, 1859 -- found the basis of our world, 69 feet below the surface of Pennsylvania, which oil historian Daniel Yergin calls "the Saudi Arabia of 19th-century oil."

For many years, most oil was used for lighting and lubrication, and the amounts extracted were modest. Then in 1901, a new well named for an East Texas hillock, Spindletop, began gushing more per day than all other U.S. wells combined.

Since then, America has exhausted its hydrocarbon supplies. Repeatedly.

In 1914, the Bureau of Mines said U.S. oil reserves would be exhausted by 1924. In 1939, the Interior Department said the world had 13 years worth of petroleum reserves. Then a global war was fought and the postwar boom was fueled, and in 1951 Interior reported that the world had ... 13 years of reserves. In 1970, the world's proven oil reserves were an estimated 612 billion barrels. By 2006, more than 767 billion barrels had been pumped and proven reserves were 1.2 trillion barrels. In 1977, Scold in Chief Jimmy Carter predicted that mankind "could use up all the proven reserves of oil in the entire world by the end of the next decade." Since then the world has consumed three times more oil than was then in the world's proven reserves.

But surely now America can quickly wean itself from hydrocarbons, adopting alternative energies -- wind, solar, nuclear? No.

Keith O. Rattie, CEO of Questar Corporation, a natural gas and pipeline company, says that by 2050 there may be 10 billion people demanding energy -- a daunting prospect, considering that of today's 6.2 billion people, nearly 2 billion "don't even have electricity -- never flipped a light switch." Rattie says energy demand will grow 30 percent to 50 percent in the next 20 years and there are no near-term alternatives to fossil fuels.

Today, wind and solar power combined are just one-sixth of 1 percent of American energy consumption. Nuclear? The United States and other rich nations endorse reducing world carbon emissions 80 percent by 2050. But Oliver Morton, a science writer, says that if nuclear is to supply even just 10 percent of the necessary carbon-free energy, the world must build more than 50 large nuclear power plants a year. Currently five a year are being built. Rattie says that as part of "a worldwide building boom in coal-fired power plants," about 30 under construction in America "will burn about 70 million tons of coal a year."

Edward L. Morse, an energy official in Carter's State Department, writes in Foreign Affairs that the world's deep-water oil and gas reserves are significantly larger than was thought just a decade ago, and high prices have spurred development of technologies -- a drilling vessel can cost $1 billion -- for extracting them. The costs of developing oil sands -- Canada may contain more oil than Saudi Arabia has -- are declining, so projects that last year were not economic with the price of oil under $90 a barrel are now viable with oil at $79 a barrel.

Morse says new technologies are also speeding development of natural gas trapped in U.S. shale rock. The Marcellus Shale, which stretches from West Virginia through Pennsylvania and into New York, "may contain as much natural gas as the North Field in Qatar, the largest field ever discovered."

Rattie says U.S. known reserves of natural gas, which are sure to become larger, exceed 100 years of supply at the current rate of consumption. BP recently announced a "giant" oil discovery beneath the Gulf of Mexico. Yergin, writing in Foreign Policy, says "careful examination of the world's resource base ... indicates that the resource endowment of the planet is sufficient to keep up with demand for decades to come."

Such good news horrifies people who relish scarcity because it requires -- or so they say -- government to ration what is scarce and to generally boss people to mend their behavior: "This is the police!" Put down that incandescent bulb and step away from the lamp!"

Today, there is a name for the political doctrine that rejoices in scarcity of everything except government. The name is environmentalism.


Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#25 OFFLINE   TomServo92

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 12:20 PM

I live about 20 miles Spindletop and everyone thought the fields here were tapped out long ago. However, there are new drilling rigs going up everywhere. Some are natural gas wells but some are for crude. Either they've found new fields or the old fields are replenished (if you believe in the abiotic theory).

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#26 OFFLINE   methos

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Posted 23 November 2009 - 05:36 PM

You beat me to it. Seems like there is sure a lot of explaining to do.

Hackers Prove Global Warming Is A Scam



It's unfortunate in how some are swayed so easily. The issues dealing with climate change are complicated, to say the least. I really don't know all the details with Hadley, but I do know this, even if they did manipulate the data, does it make the work of countless others meaningless? Of course not. It is a matter of credibility and incidents like this does no one any good; however, that said, to dismiss thousands of others countless work on this or I'm sure other incidents like this that will surely follow is sheer ignorance.

As aforementioned, climate change is an incredibly complex issue with many different fields of research involved. From what I've seen, the research and empirical evidence is something that can't be dismissed by a reasoned mind.

In fact, the bulk of the data suggest events are occurring faster than even the climate models have predicted. Nations are coming together with proposals likely costing trillions that are disruptive economically, at least in the short-run. If there wasn't strong empirical evidence, this wouldn't even be discussed. It's political suicide and likely there will be no meaningful consensus, but it does reveal the gravity of the situation.

There are strong interest groups on both sides of the argument with a lot of hype. There is a great deal of information to sort through. It ought not be decided on one piece of a puzzle with an infinitesimal amount of pieces.
"The hand of Adam Smith might be invisible, but the aftermath looks more like a wrecking ball."
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#27 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 06:10 AM

It's unfortunate in how some are swayed so easily. The issues dealing with climate change are complicated, to say the least. I really don't know all the details with Hadley, but I do know this, even if they did manipulate the data, does it make the work of countless others meaningless? Of course not. It is a matter of credibility and incidents like this does no one any good; however, that said, to dismiss thousands of others countless work on this or I'm sure other incidents like this that will surely follow is sheer ignorance.

As aforementioned, climate change is an incredibly complex issue with many different fields of research involved. From what I've seen, the research and empirical evidence is something that can't be dismissed by a reasoned mind.

In fact, the bulk of the data suggest events are occurring faster than even the climate models have predicted. Nations are coming together with proposals likely costing trillions that are disruptive economically, at least in the short-run. If there wasn't strong empirical evidence, this wouldn't even be discussed. It's political suicide and likely there will be no meaningful consensus, but it does reveal the gravity of the situation.

There are strong interest groups on both sides of the argument with a lot of hype. There is a great deal of information to sort through. It ought not be decided on one piece of a puzzle with an infinitesimal amount of pieces.


What a load of crap!

"The emporor has no clothes"

"Shhh, be quiet, he has clothes your just too obtuse to recognize it, if he didn't have clothes don't you think people with a lot more reason/acedemic standing would of said something?"

Every little piece of bullshit spewed by an alarmist "I saw one less sparrow this year than last, THEY'RE ALL DYING BECAUSE OF MMGW"! is considered to be trustworthy even when crap like this comes out, but when there is any doubts..AT ALL...ABOUT ANY OF IT??? ATTACK!!

Again MMGW is bullshit. Is the earth heating up/cooling down? Yes just as it always has. Is me driving my own vehicle one day instead of carpooling going to cause a 2ft rise in the ocean waters? Not F^%&ing Likely!

Get a grip, the blanket dropped and the guys behind it with their hands in the puppets were saw by the kids. One more piece of the puzzle for kids to realize puppets aren't real.
Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#28 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 06:48 AM

It's unfortunate in how some are swayed so easily. The issues dealing with climate change are complicated, to say the least. I really don't know all the details with Hadley, but I do know this, even if they did manipulate the data, does it make the work of countless others meaningless? Of course not. It is a matter of credibility and incidents like this does no one any good; however, that said, to dismiss thousands of others countless work on this or I'm sure other incidents like this that will surely follow is sheer ignorance.

Consider the timeline here, Methos. The emails (and records) of this are from the 1990s. A LOT of work performed in the MMGW arena has been based on the work of the scientists in question. Now does that make the subsequent scientists work done in bad faith? No. However, if the foundation on which their work is based has been called into question, it calls their work into question also. It is a domino effect.

As aforementioned, climate change is an incredibly complex issue with many different fields of research involved. From what I've seen, the research and empirical evidence is something that can't be dismissed by a reasoned mind.

The problem is the emperical evidence (the rising temperatures and climate models) has now been called into question, because the scientists working with it, have now been shown to have ulterior motives. A reasoned mind, would therefore have to acknowledge that any conclusions based on such evidence, are also called into question.

In fact, the bulk of the data suggest events are occurring faster than even the climate models have predicted. Nations are coming together with proposals likely costing trillions that are disruptive economically, at least in the short-run. If there wasn't strong empirical evidence, this wouldn't even be discussed. It's political suicide and likely there will be no meaningful consensus, but it does reveal the gravity of the situation.

The bulk (read: all) of the data suggest the planet has cooled for the last 10 years; something none of the climate models predicted. Good science is not based on consensus, but on experiment and observation. Consensus is nothing more than a widely accepted hypothesis. At one time, scientists' consensus was that Einstein was wrong.....until he was proven right.

There are strong interest groups on both sides of the argument with a lot of hype. There is a great deal of information to sort through. It ought not be decided on one piece of a puzzle with an infinitesimal amount of pieces.

The possible outcome of this potential scandal is more than "one piece of the puzzle". It calls into question the very foundation.

And when you argue about hype, I would ask you to consider whether or not you are buying into it. I do not now, nor have I ever, bought into MMGW. I simply understand the limits of the technology too well. Although I wasn't looking for it in the scientists' character/behavior, I now have something else to consider in support of my side. For me, it fits the idea of "MMGW conspiracy" a little too neatly; scientists who make up data, impugn and attempt to suppress opposition, and cover up their misdeeds by deleting evidence. But if true, I'll accept it as evidence to support my view.

Edited by RangerM, 24 November 2009 - 06:57 AM.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#29 OFFLINE   methos

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 08:05 AM

Consider the timeline here, Methos. The emails (and records) of this are from the 1990s. A LOT of work performed in the MMGW arena has been based on the work of the scientists in question. Now does that make the subsequent scientists work done in bad faith? No. However, if the foundation on which their work is based has been called into question, it calls their work into question also. It is a domino effect.

The problem is the emperical evidence (the rising temperatures and climate models) has now been called into question, because the scientists working with it, have now been shown to have ulterior motives. A reasoned mind, would therefore have to acknowledge that any conclusions based on such evidence, are also called into question.

The bulk (read: all) of the data suggest the planet has cooled for the last 10 years; something none of the climate models predicted. Good science is not based on consensus, but on experiment and observation. Consensus is nothing more than a widely accepted hypothesis. At one time, scientists' consensus was that Einstein was wrong.....until he was proven right.

The possible outcome of this potential scandal is more than "one piece of the puzzle". It calls into question the very foundation.

And when you argue about hype, I would ask you to consider whether or not you are buying into it. I do not now, nor have I ever, bought into MMGW. I simply understand the limits of the technology too well. Although I wasn't looking for it in the scientists' character/behavior, I now have something else to consider in support of my side. For me, it fits the idea of "MMGW conspiracy" a little too neatly; scientists who make up data, impugn and attempt to suppress opposition, and cover up their misdeeds by deleting evidence. But if true, I'll accept it as evidence to support my view.



First, I would have to look at the entirety of the emails so as I could get some context of what was said. I don't like making opinions based on bits and pieces of conversations dating back thirteen years. Second, the one thing about science is no one takes any ones word, it has to be replicated, and often times it's done by multiple parties. Like I said, there are a great many involved in the research directly and many more indirectly. This isn't a small club, some 26 countries and like ours many different organizations and individuals involved within each.

As for me, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, especially in an auto forum, lol. I was merely trying to point out the larger picture. As the previous poster suggested I need to get a grip. I agree. My time as I am sure your time is to valuable to waste quibbling :)
"The hand of Adam Smith might be invisible, but the aftermath looks more like a wrecking ball."
Methos

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Mohandas Gandhi

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Thomas Carlyle

All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move.
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#30 OFFLINE   grbeck

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 09:35 AM

These e-mails remind us that, despite claims to the contrary, manmade global warming hasn't been proven - or proven false.

There is a collection of evidence and material, but it has not been conclusive one way or the other. In this environment, interpretation of findings and any new material are critical. Scientists don't have to resort to outright lies - they can attempt to smear the reputations of those with different conclusions, or sit on evidence that contradicts their beliefs. Both of which appear to have happened here. What I see is suppression of contradictory evidence and ridiculing the opposition, instead of debating them on the merits.

The bottom line, though, is that this is a major blow to those who believe that manmade global warming is happening. For years, we heard about global warming "deniers" (which was an attempt through words to link them to Holocaust deniers), who were ridiculed for not believing in what had supposedly been proven by science.

Turns out that those who cautioned against jumping to conclusions were correct after all.

The ironic thing is that we are going to become more efficient in our use of fossil fuels anyway. Why? Because of price pressures from growing global demand (in China, India, etc.) and the resistance to increased drilling or building more power plants in this country. We are going to have to get more from less. This has nothing to do with global warming.

The sooner we move beyond this global warming hysteria, the sooner we can begin to make productive strides in this area. But some people are afraid to let the free market have a larger role here. After all, it's tough to get a cap-and-trade scheme - and the associated expanded bureaucracy - through Congress unless we have plenty of nightmare scenarios (The polars bears will all die! New York City residents will drown when the oceans rise! Rising temperatures will turn Kansas into a desert!) if we don't.

#31 OFFLINE   Edstock

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 10:58 AM

"But some people are afraid to let the free market have a larger role here."

After ENRON, can you blame them?

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#32 OFFLINE   grbeck

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:02 AM

"But some people are afraid to let the free market have a larger role here."

After ENRON, can you blame them?


That wasn't about the free market...that was a company's attempt to manipulate government regulations (or manipulate a shoddy, halfway attempt at deregulation, as in California).

The one true way to encourage conservation is to let energy prices rise, which they inevitably will as supplies become tighter.

Edited by grbeck, 24 November 2009 - 11:02 AM.


#33 OFFLINE   mikem12

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:44 AM

I don't remember which ones off the top of my head but some are growing.

Canada and the northeastern parts of America used to be ice so maybe the earth is changing?


I seem to recall from high school the earth goes through major climate changes about every 20k years. If that theory is correct the earth is in the position to go into another ice age. To many scientists disagree with Al "I invented the internet" Gore. The C&T is nothing more than a get rich scheme to make huge profits and will do literally nothing to save the invironment. Take a look at General Electric and Goldman Sachs, both have set up brokerages to buy and sell the credits. Both were huge contibutors to Obama's campaign! I wonder why? Hmm, I wonder if that is why CNBC was told by GE (parent company) to stop running news articles denigrating Obama.


OH,
They also conveniently failed to mention that the earth has been cooling for the last 10 years or so.

#34 OFFLINE   xr7g428

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 05:53 PM

This link is to a Finnish documentary that is very comprehensive in its explanation of exactly how the wheels are coming of the global warming band wagon.

If you have ever wasted the time to watch Al Gore, you really owe it to your self to spend the thirty minutes it will take to watch this. It is subtitled in English.

As it turns out, a Canadian mathematician is a big contributor in cutting through the BS. Atta' boy Canada!

Climate Catastrophe Canceled

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#35 OFFLINE   Edstock

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 07:23 PM

Very, very interesting! Makes sense, too. Thanks for posting it. :)

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#36 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 11:55 PM

Wow! Again,when will the alarmist stop..oh yeah never.
This can't be true because it means they've been wrong. And that can't be.

Should we be sustainable? Of course. Should we destroy forest "just because"? Of course not.
Should we freak out and panic to change the lightbulb in our fridge so the world won't explode? ahhh, no.

Just waiting, hopefully in about 3-5 years we'll look back and laugh at this. Kind of like laughing at the same freaks back in the 70's who were saying we were going to be in an ice age by the year 2000.

What about y2k panic? what about all the other "panic's" caused by both dem's and repub's?

I'll sleep good tonight, knowing the world won't blow up as I sleep even though I left the truck idling for 2 minutes today.
Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#37 OFFLINE   Edstock

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:53 AM

What about y2k panic?

That was entirely real. When the problem was discovered, systems were tested — and crashed. Because it was taken so seriously, the gang really pulled the pickle out to get it right. Did a great job, virtually nothing happened, so it seemed like it was nothing. But it could have been a real cluster-f.

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#38 OFFLINE   sprinter

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 10:36 AM

Ed Begley Jr; primo jack@ss. Watch the FOX video.

http://www.infowars....er-climategate/

This guy reminds me of savetheplanet with his peer-reviewed bs. Could they be the same person? And why hasn't 'save' added his two cents worth into this arena?
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#39 OFFLINE   methos

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:11 AM

Ed Begley Jr; primo jack@ss. Watch the FOX video.

http://www.infowars....er-climategate/

This guy reminds me of savetheplanet with his peer-reviewed bs. Could they be the same person? And why hasn't 'save' added his two cents worth into this arena?



I don't know about "save" but here is my last two-cents. The level of ignorance in this forum is taxing to say the least. This "arena" is composed of of about a dozen people, lol. With the majority being half-wits mostly foaming about some sort of conspiracy.

FYI, if you want to talk about conspiracies, they have broader forums for just that. If you want to talk about the environment, again, they have forums where one can go to have a serious discussion. One based on facts and serious inquiry.

Then again, maybe this is the perfect place for some of you. It's probably the only place you feel smart, and that's important for everyone, well goober, and grbeck, you've found a home. You really are smart here, lol.
"The hand of Adam Smith might be invisible, but the aftermath looks more like a wrecking ball."
Methos

"You must be the change you wish to see..."
Mohandas Gandhi

"Go as far as you can see; when you get there you'll be able to see farther."
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All mankind is divided into three classes: those that are immovable, those that are movable, and those that move.
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#40 OFFLINE   grbeck

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 12:31 PM

I don't know about "save" but here is my last two-cents. The level of ignorance in this forum is taxing to say the least. This "arena" is composed of of about a dozen people, lol. With the majority being half-wits mostly foaming about some sort of conspiracy.


Last time I checked, a concerted effort by several researchers to cover up contradictory evidence and discredit those who disagree with them - instead of debating them on the merits - had been uncovered. That sounds like a conspiracy to me.

The real problem is that the "halfwits" of this form (one assumes that "halfwits" is, in your world, synonomous with "disagrees with methos on the issue at hand") have the facts on their side.

FYI, if you want to talk about conspiracies, they have broader forums for just that. If you want to talk about the environment, again, they have forums where one can go to have a serious discussion. One based on facts and serious inquiry.


Apparently, supressing contradictory evidence and using ridicule instead of open debate to challenge those with different views now constitutes conclusions based on "facts and serious inquiry."

Then again, maybe this is the perfect place for some of you. It's probably the only place you feel smart, and that's important for everyone, well goober, and grbeck, you've found a home. You really are smart here, lol.


Nothing like an attempt to dodge the facts being uncovered daily in this whole mess - understandable, given that you don't appear to be too well informed about what is happening - along with some ad hominen attacks thrown in for good measure. I guess that is all that you can do when faced with some rather inconvenient facts.

I feel sorry that you have to resort to outright insults and name-calling instead of using reason or facts to back up your assertions. It doesn't make you look especially good.

One would think that a person such as yourself who was who the guts and moxie to start a brand-new career in midstream would not need to use such tactics, but I guess that isn't the case. The only person you are diminishing on this forum is yourself.

Edited by grbeck, 25 November 2009 - 01:16 PM.









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