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1075 replies to this topic

#1061 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 11:27 AM

Oh, and the 47% who don't pay taxes HAS to be addressed too. That too is ludicrous that the middle work their asses off and pay the taxes, the "poor" get away scot free and the rich use tax deductions to get away scot free. This is also in Canada, but as long as the law says so, I'll do it.

Is it fair for me to be able to drive 100mph because I have a green truck but everybody without a green truck must go 50mph? No, but if that is the law, I will follow it either by buying a green truck or painting my truck green. Either way i will get a benefit because it is law. The others who can't afford a green truck or can't afford to paint their current truck? THAT is the "not guaranteeing equal outcomes"

I made it where I am today because of ME!
Not from being white.
Not from growing up in a poor farming family.
Not from getting anymore than grade 12 education.

I got it from always giving more than was expected for the amount I was paid. I always..still do..give 100%
I MADE CHOICES IN LIFE THAT PUT ME WHERE I AM TODAY!

I am responsible for my lot in life, ME!
I always knew i wanted a wife and kids and I would have to be able to support them. I worked at the lowliest scumbag jobs. But I'm better for it. I advanced to better jobs as a result of resume's.
THAT is why I'm right wing. THAT is why I believe you should reap what you sow.

I am well enough off that I can see both sides. I'm not too rich to snub the poor, but I'm not to poor to cry about the rich or have envy issues.
If your rich, good for you, if your poor, get off your ass and stop looking for a handout. (that said, I believe in helping somebody up, I just believe in letting go of their hand once they're up)
Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.







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#1062 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 11:35 AM

Fair share is equal to me.

The simple fact that people in the lower quintiles that pay no income tax are still subject to a level of taxation that impacts their life to a great extent.

Guaranteeing access doesn't guarantee outcomes. We are talking access not outcome.

When you and I go to the grocery store, we don't pay different amounts for the same box of crackers based on our income, yet we have the same access to the same store shelves.

By virtue of experience or training or intelligence/skill, I'd assume that we can agree that some doctors are just better than others.

What if the majority of those superior doctors live where I do, and not where you do? Are you saying we have the same access? I'd say not. As far as guaranteeing equal access I would ask, what are you prepared to do?

Now I acknowledge that you didn't use the words "equal access", so if I'm putting words in your mouth, please let me know. However, I'm making that assumption because we are both aware that Medicaid exists for those too poor to afford their own healthcare. The difference being a Medicaid recipient is going to have a harder time finding a doctor willing to accept the Medicaid payment as opposed to what I (or my health insurance company) are prepared to/able to pay.

Edited by RangerM, 19 September 2011 - 11:36 AM.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#1063 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 02:38 PM

Like you said there is no equal access. But there is a better than minimum access that could be had. Minimum access is the ER having to treat even the poor in a free rider situation to me. I'm not looking for some liberal Utopia. I'm looking for a real possibility of covering all of our fellow citizens in a single payer system.

I don't expect it to be fair, but to do what it can.

Then I would ask you to consider what that same philosophy has done in the education system.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


1993 Ranger STX, Cayman Green, 2wd, SuperCab, 4.0L, 5-spd


#1064 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 06:39 PM

So no one making $25,000 works their asses off? What about 30,000? These people don't work hard?

Boy you like to twist peoples words to fit your left wing agenda don't you? Yes there are lots of hard working people at all levels of pay. My point that you went out of your way to miss was that somebody making lower amounts get's basically all their tax money back and the "rich" get their money back. The remainder "the middle class" are the ones left holding the bag.

Did you also make to where you are because of luck or fate? There's always someone out there as good or better than 99 percent of us, so are we just lucky or did we deserve the things we walked into?
Only in a left wing twisted world would you consider MY luck or FATE more important or more deserving of the credit than a poor persons luck or fate. Seriously? The only way I got ahead..OR ANYBODY gets ahead is luck or fate? Good god man you have a sorry view of life. Wow, how sad to think that in the land of milk and honey that your so jaded in lfe, that you only think you will get ahead by luck or fate. When you see a rich guy, do you think he's "lucky"? HONESTLY? I think either he's smart or worked his ass off to get where he is in life. I could be proven wrong later and he's a crook, but my initial impression of well of people is that they've gotten ahead due to their own efforts. To always feel sorry for yourself and think life has done you wrong because somebody has more than you? I guess that sums up why your left wing. You truly believe the rich are evil and only got there on the backs of others.
Sad, very sad.


You also got there by the choices others made. And by chance too. Hundreds of thousands are effected everyday by the choices of another. That could be you just as much as anyone. To squawk about how you deserve and earned it is immensely egotistical.
You know, there's a saying. "the more I practise, the more luck I have" Think about it. I was some lucky for that guy to mention my work ethic to a CEO. Your right, I WAS lucky...but WHO is ultimately responsible for the luck in the first place? And the chance of a lifetime of stepping into a executive spot...and NOT SCREWING IT UP...yup that was a chance too....and through hard work and dedication and MANY 18hour days..I was "lucky" again. Many choices I've made could of turned out different, then I would of adapted and tried harder..and would of STILL made it to where I am today because I WOULDN'T give up or cry foul or blame others.

Did the people who worked at Atlanta deserve to be laid off? They were best in quality so they worked hard no doubt about that. But plenty of them are gone and no longer work for Ford.
Being hard working/high quality workers, I have no doubt in my mind that they will have more "LUCK" at finding a good job. And they will have a better "CHANCE" if they are willing to move/take something a bit different.


Why do you keep acting like the poor are all lazy and don't try? We survive by grace alone. All our hard work can be for nothing in an instant and you sit there acting like its all your own doing. bullshit.
I grew up poor and watched as all the welfare bums around us that had snowmobiles, went hunting/fishing drove without licenses/insurance not caring in the world because if they got caught? What could the government take? They lived in welfare homes. We had a small farm and worked at our farm and two others.
Obviously not all poor are lazy but I've seen way to many who are and I'm still bitter growing up with NOTHING and watching welfare kids go to school with new shoes/clothes/etc. I worked from the time I was 10 and when I graduated from highschool on a Wednesday I left and had a job 400km's away the following Monday. I swore I would NEVER allow myself to EVER lose my self respect and except handouts and thank the lord I've never had to. Not because of being "lucky" but because I MADE IT SO!

Edited by goinbroke2, 19 September 2011 - 06:46 PM.

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Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1065 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 06:58 PM

On the news the other night there was a FAT welfare bum complaing because she didn't have money for something or other. Yes she was smoking and yes you could see the x-box and large tv in the background. I thought WTF???

But that's ok though right?
Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1066 OFFLINE   Trimdingman

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:48 AM

The reason why medical procedures are so expensive is because there is no incentive to lower them. Get the government out, get rid of regulations and red tape; end the monopoly, and let free enterprize and competition work. Soon, everybody would be able to afford their own medical bills. A heart transplant is complicated. So is building a computer. You can buy a computer for a few hundred bucks. A heart transplant costs maybe a million. A computer used to cost a million, but now it is only a few hundred bucks. Competition. Free enterprize. North American Indians didn't have much competition. Europeans did. Indians didn't progress past the bow and arrow. Europeans developed cannons, fortresses, battleships, and cavalry. We let them hold us hostage because health care is life or death. That is too much power to allow the government to have over us.
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#1067 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:03 AM

Oh my goodness what a pile of drivel. Let me guess, you cry when you see the commercials from africa with the little babies with flies on them...ohh boohoo those poor little kids...boohoo, send your money...boohoo. Then you find out 6 ships full of food (flour/rice/wheat/etc) where held at the dock because the warlords were fighting over who got what. In the meantime most of it went rotten and what was salvaged went to the strongest warlord. People were shot because they were trying to grab bowls/cup/hats/bags/anything that would carry rice. THAT is the disgusting reality of it.

I sponsor a kid in guatamala. It's through compassion Canada which is church based and 90% of the money donated gets to the kid. We've sent wind up radio's that are set to Christian channels in the local area. We've sent blankets the kids in discovery club made with their names and pictures sew in. These are things that help those who need help. I did not do this because of a commercial. I didn't do it because of feeling sorry or guilty. I did it because as a "have" it is my responsibility to help others.
All the crying and feeling sorry for people or feeling guilty about what you have does NOTHING to help the plight of others.

You don't know anything about me or what I've done. I don't have the desire nor the patients to sit and hold hands and cry about somebodies problems. If you ask for help, I will help. If you don't want help, don't ask. And if you are not willing to help yourself then don't ask for my help either.
Not sure if your trying to get me to admit the Lord is the one to thank for my success and not myself, or not. If you are, then yes I will readily admit I am nothing without his grace. The Lord does not micro manage either though and helps those who helps himself.
It's not enough to give empty platitudes or be a pharisee.
Actions speak, crying and feelings do not.
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Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1068 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:41 AM

Oh, and as far as "Imagine a world or country where working hard and taking advantage of your opportunities could earn you enemies. Ones that would kill you. Billions of people live in a world like that. Or a world that you might starve to death before you could turn 3. What good is a work ethic if you live in these places?"

Have you ever been to a place like that? I have. What good is a work ethic there? Man, how much time do you have because I have LOTS of anicdotes. Kids find out we're pulling mines in Bosnia and start showing up with armloads of them to trade for food. Kids show us where weapon caches are..for food. Somalia, guys want to wash our clothes, give info, anything for food. Haiti, you want it, you can get it in Haiti for protection/food/security/etc. Heck some guys were letting the haitians climb the fig trees for figs even though they hung out over our into compound just for the entertainment of it.
A good work ethic is ALWAYS a benefit. In the shittiest hole in the wolrd, the one who is laying down wood/corrugated tin/anything so they don't have to walk, stand or sleep in mud is better of because of their choice of not accepting their lot in life.
Stop boo-hooing about how poor off people are and look WHY they are. Where would America be today if 250 years ago the land was ruled by warlords and it was still that way today? What is the difference that enabled a land of trees and lakes to be cut out and developed into what it is today?
Was it "luck" or "chance"? Seriously? How about a lot of people died building the country. Some through starvation or lack of medical aid, some murdered by indians or claim jumpers, there were lots of people who gave it all to make it a better place.
And now, your going to piss on their grave and say "boy we're lucky we were born here". REALLY? Thousands of years of tribal warfare in some countries and it's just "luck"? A couple hundred years of hard work is required and it's just "luck"?

European work ethic. Hows that for a generic stereotype?
How about europeans that moved to africa and suddenly "a lawless wasteland that requires the world to support it" is self sufficient?

Yeah that's what i thought, they were "lucky" too.
Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1069 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 05:56 AM

I don't find the educational system to be analogous to what i am suggesting. in fact i find that many of the mistakes of our educational system would not happen in single payer system.


No need for a separate thread.

Exactly how do you think a "single-payer" healthcare system avoids the pitfalls of "single-provider" as is our public education system?

I believe it's already been established that Medicaid recipients are finding it more difficult to find a doctor because of the lack of willingness for doctors to accept the lower payments compared to privately-insured (read: higher-paying) consumers. Does the answer somehow include outlawing private insurance (including self-payer) or forcing doctors/hospitals to accept Medicare/Medicaid?

Edited by RangerM, 20 September 2011 - 05:58 AM.

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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#1070 ONLINE   jpd80

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 06:06 AM

I read an interesting article in our local Aussie paper today, seems that happiness is not measured in wealth or low tax.
Some of the happiest people in the world are Scandinavians and that have the crap taxed out of them.

From what i gather, people measure happiness in terms of;
1) Support for families
2) Reduced traffic congestion
3) Attractive neighborhoods
4) Good health service
5) Reduced fear of crime
6) Proper aged care

Funny thing is that in places like the USA, the pursuit of ever higher salaries and low rates of income tax becomes a futile past time.
People become highly competitive once a society becomes wealthy, research looking at income alone indicates that in affluent
neighborhoods, people are only happy when they earn more than others...

Maybe it's time we told governments how to run the country and start building happiness as per points 1 through 6 above...

#1071 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 10:59 AM

Touch a nerve did we? :ohsnap:

Am I to believe that the only "good" person is one who stands in front of an audience and talks about how bad Aid's is...waits for applause...says they think Aids should be eliminated...waits for applause.....yells "WE HAVE TO END AIDS!" and listens to more applause then smiles and walks off stage while everybody pats them on the back as a great humanitarian.
What did they DO? NOTHING!
This same crap is repeated every emmy/globe/etc awards show so the hollyweird types can pat themselves on the back and boost their image.

How about quietly giving to aids causes? Naw...that's no good, you want everybody to see you cry on demand.

1. I'm fine and actually, through diversification I'm pretty darn secure. Oh, and my kids will be secure too because with their work ethic they will make great bosses for your kids...if your kids get jobs. Either that or my kids taxes will pay for your kids welfare.

2. Actually, yes, yes it is. Your personal attack made it about me. If you want, you can look up out of the gutter your in and yell at my limo as I drive by, if it will make you feel better. :hysterical:

3. See, reality is in the eye of the beholder. My reality is that I have a wife and kids, cottage, racecar (my youngest drives a junior dragster too) lots of investments and after working all day (because I do work) I go home and have a whisky by the pool. Life is good. That's my reality. Your reality is that you suck. Your life sucks, your job sucks (if you have one) everything is terrible...but it's not your fault, it's those evil rich people...or...or the evil rich corporations....or....MADONNA! yeah..it's HER fault....but it's not yours. :confused:

4. Oh good, so you see/understand how capitalism works? You wanted more than was offered so paid and got it. See, it's not that hard to understand. Should I call you an evil rich person who should be taxed more because you did that? Didn't think so.


Funny how you college kids act with such an entitlement mentality.
You know, Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing) feed a man and he is full for a day, teach him to fish and he can feed himself for life. This is along the lines of helping somebody up but letting then letting go. You don't want to leave mommy's apron strings, that's fine. Just stop complaining that your hungry when you can't be bothered to walk into a field and pick an apple.

Well I got to go, I'm finishing building an engine for a junior dragster on my dinner break. (yup I'll get paid for it too, now I'll be REALLY rich and evil) :hysterical:
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Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1072 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 03:52 PM

LOL! Your hilarious!

Oh, and my kid said to tell your kid to get back to work or he'll fire him! :hysterical:


I should do a 180 and start saying why the poor need help and spout how great it would be if we could just get the evil corporations to pay more taxes. LOL You'd still argue with me. Ah your great fun.

What a great life this is...of course it's just pure luck that I am where I am. I had absolutely nothing to do with it. One day, the "good luck" hit me and "bad luck" hit the next guy. WHEW! I'm so LUCKY! I just skated through life without a care in the world because, you know, if something happens, it happens and we have zero influence on any outcome in our life.


Just luck




yay, I'm lucky






and your not









boo hoo







poor you








But that's luck for ya..... :hyper:
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Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1073 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 03:55 PM

Oh, I forgot, I'm a lucky egomaniac! :happy feet:
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Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1074 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 05:09 AM

"But how'd you get so lucky to get this opportunity to learn about it from me?" :hysterical:
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Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#1075 OFFLINE   Aces

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 06:32 AM

Interesting development

http://www.nytimes.c...dlines&emc=tha2

"Supreme Court Is Asked to Rule on Health Care
By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: September 28, 2011

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration asked the Supreme Court on Wednesday to hear a case concerning the 2010 health care overhaul law. The development, which came unexpectedly fast, makes it all but certain that the court will soon agree to hear one or more cases involving challenges to the law, with arguments by the spring and a decision by June, in time to land in the middle of the 2012 presidential campaign."
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“When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” Sinclair Lewis

#1076 OFFLINE   Aces

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 04:04 PM

The Economist (print edition) has a good article on managed care.....which the states are increasingly turning to to save money.

The outcome is still unknown but more and more states are going this way

http://www.economist.com/node/21531491

" Medicaid beneficiaries are vulnerable, in worse health than Americans as a whole. Companies may struggle to cut costs and provide good care as well. If states do not draft their contracts properly, or fail to be vigilant in monitoring patients’ health, their experiment in managed care could be a disaster. On the other hand, if states are careful they could provide an answer to the question that has vexed America for years: how to provide good, cheap health care."
“When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” Sinclair Lewis








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