Is the jig up?

[RangerM]

There's other areas that men aren't held to the same standard.......

 

.....I also know guys who are "100%" in favor of equal rights for woman...until the women get pregnant. Then, damn it, don't you know that they have one reason for being, don't ya know? I am being sarcastic, but I'm certain you catch my drift.

Speaking for myself, I'm not 100% favor of the same rights for men and women; simply because men and women are different. That is not to say they don't have equal responsibility. They just have different roles; male and female.

 

To me, the idea that men and women are equal in every way (as in, you could replace a man with a woman, or vice versa at any time and it would make no difference) is bunk.

 

However, I have the same standards of conduct (in their respective roles) for men and women.

I also know one lady, a good friend of mine from college, who got the crap kicked out of her by her now ex-husband, getting pregnant to begin with. As far as that dirt bag was concerned, contraception was all her responsibility. And yes, in addition to divorcing the sonovabitch, yes, she terminated the pregnancy.

Clearly the man did not fulfill his role as a man; starting with being an abuser.

 

While I could not (in good conscience) insert myself into the decision the woman made, I'm pretty confident that one day, she will not look back on the child she terminated with the same feeling of "good riddance" that she has towards her ex-husband.

[retro-man]

I have a cousin who I was very close to when we were little. In High School she dated the younger brother of her older sister's now ex-husband. Her older sister was a bit of a wild card and both he and his brother (and their father as I recall) were kind of jerks. When my cousin broke up with this younger brother, he spent the next year beating the crap out of anyone who looked at her.

 

At any rate, I found out in later years that she had gotten pregnant in high school from that ex-boyfriend, and had had an abortion. That was many years ago. She has been married for 30 years now to a great guy, who I think the world of. They have 3 beautiful kids, who have all gone through college, and two of whom are married. One is a nurse, one is a pilot, one is studying to be a social worker. The kids all turned out great. If you looked at her life and her family, you would not perceive that anything is lacking, or incomplete, or wrong. It is hard for me to imagine that some terrible wrong was done by aborting that fetus all those many years ago. I don't imagine that she ever lays awake at night thinking about what the child might have become that she would have had with that High School boyfriend, or the alternate life she might have had.

 

It's very easy to sit in judgement from afar - about what this particular girl should have done in that circumstance. It's very easy to sit in judgement about her responsibility. "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant if you weren't ready to care for a child." (true) It's also easy enough to construct an alternate scenario: a high-school girl forced to term, having to take care of a child when she was not ready or equipped, facing college, work, dating (I said her husband is a wonderful guy - I didn't say he is a saint - maybe he is, but why test it?), having 4 kids instead of 3 - one older, looking different, and congenitally disposed to being a swaggering jerk with occasional fits of violence. Of course he could have become a firefighter and saved a life, or a researcher. He could even have discovered a cure for restless leg syndrome! But that's all hypothetical.

 

Which brings me to the last point: a fetus is not a human being. It is a potential human being. If it is aborted, it does not lose its life, because it has no life of its own: It has no friends, no memories, no desires, no dreams, no fears (not even of death), no conscious attachments to anything or anyone - only a physical attachment to the womb, gradually becoming sensate as months go by. It is incorrect to refer to this as "a person". As recently as the early 60s, the Catholic church taught that people did not have a soul until some days after birth - 6 or 8 days as I recall (this probably saved a lot of trouble back in the days of high infant mortality and stillbirths). This belief has evidently been expunged from Catholic teachings in the years since then. Funny how pliable eternal truths can be.

 

I had the conversation about my cousin with an older couple on a flight up from deep in the bible belt (Oklahoma). They were talking about how fearful they were about Obama - then went into the social issues. They spoke in that soft-spoken, genteel, yet oddly aggressive manner - like a dagger cloaked in velvet - of people who believe deeply that they hold the secret of how everyone else should be living their lives. Yet, over the course of this conversation, they also let it slip out how the husband had, for a while, had a fling with some woman - but how that was over, and they had stayed married. It was clear that the wife was very injured by this, because she obviously couldn't resist getting in a barb or two (a softly spoken genteel barb - with the aggression just slightly under the surface), even in front of a complete stranger. But my cousin, married 30 years with 3 beautiful kids, my liberal self, married 30 years with 2 beautiful kids and never once an affair, Obama with his kids - always faithful, never ran off with a younger woman; we who don't feel it is our divine obligation to tell other people how to live their lives - we're not making anybody get an abortion or turn gay, or get a divorce or have an affair - we're the scary ones, the flawed ones, the ones with the moral problem.

Edited July 25, 2009 by retro-man

[Len_A]

Retro-man, besides my friend from college, my wife and I know a couple of other women who have had abortions. Not only is it hard to imagine that they're living with this massive regret, one friend of my wife's gets particularly annoyed when it's suggested that she or other women who've had this procedure might be living with some regret.

 

While I could not (in good conscience) insert myself into the decision the woman made, I'm pretty confident that one day, she will not look back on the child she terminated with the same feeling of "good riddance" that she has towards her ex-husband.

Don't bet on that. I spoken to her many times, since then, and I can tell you that nothing would have been more cruel than to make her bear the child of her abuser, even if that child would have been put up for adoption. As men, it's hard for us to imagine what it's like to be repeatedly on the receiving end of a spouse's fist, or worse. That becomes especially true when the woman's experience with marital intimacy is more akin to spousal rape.

 

One principle I've lived by, since my mid teens, is that a male, I have zero business and zero right to tell any female what to do with her body, and even voice the opinion that she should carry a pregnancy to term if she doesn't want to. My basis for this has always been that since, as a male, I can't get pregnant, and furthermore as male I can walk away from my responsibilities after the fact of fathering a child (and even when, as a male, while I can be forced to take some financial responsibilities, I can't be forced to be a parent, to be a dad), then I shouldn't be telling women what they should do, in regards to their reproductive health.

[macattak1]

I have a cousin who I was very close to when we were little. In High School she dated the younger brother of her older sister's now ex-husband. Her older sister was a bit of a wild card and both he and his brother (and their father as I recall) were kind of jerks. When my cousin broke up with this younger brother, he spent the next year beating the crap out of anyone who looked at her.

 

At any rate, I found out in later years that she had had gotten pregnant - in high school - from this guy, and had had an abortion. Many many years ago. She has been married for 30 years now to a different, wonderful guy, who I think the world of. They have 3 beautiful kids, who have all gone through college, and two of whom are married now. One is a nurse, one is a pilot, one is studying to be a social worker. The kids are all wonderful people. If you looked at her life and her family, you would not perceive that anything is lacking, or incomplete, or wrong. It is hard for me to imagine that some terrible wrong was done by aborting that fetus all those many years ago. I don't imagine that she ever lays awake at night thinking about what the child might have become that she would have had with that High School boyfriend, or the alternate life she might have had.

 

It's very easy to sit in judgement from afar - about what this particular girl should have done in that circumstance. It's very easy to sit in judgement about her responsibility. "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant if you weren't ready to care for a child." (true) It's also easy enough to construct an alternate scenario: a high-school girl forced to term, having to take care of a child when she was not ready or equipped, facing college, work, dating (I said her husband is a wonderful guy - I didn't say he is a saint - maybe he is, but why test it?), having 4 kids instead of 3 - one older, looking different, and congenitally disposed to being a swaggering jerk with occasional fits of violence. Of course he could have become a firefighter and saved a life, or a researcher and maybe even discovered a cure for restless leg syndrome! But that's all hypothetical.

 

Which brings me to the last point: a fetus is not a human being. It is a potential human being. If it is aborted, it does not lose its life, because it has no life of its own: It has no friends, no memories, no desires, no dreams, no fears (not even of death), no conscious attachments to anything or anyone - only a physical attachment to the womb, gradually becoming sensate as months go by. It is incorrect to refer to this as "a person". As recently as the early 60s, the Catholic church taught that people did not have a soul until some days after birth - 6 or 8 days as I recall (this probably saved a lot of trouble back in the days of high infant mortality and stillbirths). This belief has evidently been expunged from Catholic teachings in the years since then. Funny how pliable eternal truths can be.

 

I had the conversation about my cousin with an older couple on a flight up from deep in the bible belt (Oklahoma). They were talking about how fearful they were about Obama - then went into the social issues. They spoke in that soft-spoken, genteel, yet oddly aggressive manner - like a dagger cloaked in velvet - of people who believe deeply that they hold the secret of how everyone else should be living their lives. Yet, over the course of this conversation, they also let it slip out how the husband had, for a while, had a fling with some woman - but how that was over, and they had stayed married. It was clear that the wife was very injured by this, because she obviously couldn't resist getting in a barb or two (a softly spoken genteel barb - with the aggression just slightly under the surface), even in front of a complete stranger. But my cousin, married 30 years with 3 beautiful kids, my liberal self, married 30 years with 2 beautiful kids and never once an affair, Obama with his kids - always faithful, never ran off with a younger woman; we who don't feel it is our divine obligation to tell other people how to live their lives - we're not making anybody get an abortion or turn gay, or get a divorce or have an affair - we're the scary ones, the flawed ones, the ones with the moral problem.

 

First. I don't personally focus on the fact that someone had an abortion. Its over. Its done. I don't blame or hate anyone for having an abortion. For 'ME' its a sin. Just another sin. A sin just like the many I engage in every day. So you will never find me out there chanting hate towards someone that is going to have an abortion. However, I speak up against the Drs and Clinics that do these cash cow 18 hour a day money making rooms of death.

 

Do you think it is appropriate for a 19 year old girl to have her tubes tied? Many people would say she is an adult. But many people would say that the Dr is way out of line doing this for such a young girl who may change her mind in 3 years.

 

Further, as a 30 year old man with a wife and 3 kids, I could not get a vasectomy with out my wife's approval. She had to sign off on my getting a vasectomy. They would not do it with out her permission. Yet they will do it for a 19 year old girl with no children?

 

I am not arm chair judging her. But I would like her to know the real effects and affects of having an abortion. Do you really think that her later kids would not love her previous kid? They don't sound like nice kids if that is the case. But I do not think it is the case. I think she would be loving that child and so would her husband and their 3 kids. Why would they not?

 

If one does not believe in Scripture I can easily see why they do not consider a fetus a living being. No insult intended. Just a statement of understanding. Catholics have many teachings that go against scripture or are not based on scripture in any way.

 

There are many mean people that can not forgive others. Christians are not excluded from this group. Its not a fun life to live being in continual hate and anger.

 

You don't actually know what is in Obama's closet or anyone elses so I am not sure that is a very good argument?

 

Peace and Blessings

[napfirst]

I have a cousin who I was very close to when we were little. In High School she dated the younger brother of her older sister's now ex-husband. Her older sister was a bit of a wild card and both he and his brother (and their father as I recall) were kind of jerks. When my cousin broke up with this younger brother, he spent the next year beating the crap out of anyone who looked at her.

 

At any rate, I found out in later years that she had gotten pregnant in high school from that ex-boyfriend, and had had an abortion. That was many years ago. She has been married for 30 years now to a great guy, who I think the world of. They have 3 beautiful kids, who have all gone through college, and two of whom are married. One is a nurse, one is a pilot, one is studying to be a social worker. The kids all turned out great. If you looked at her life and her family, you would not perceive that anything is lacking, or incomplete, or wrong. It is hard for me to imagine that some terrible wrong was done by aborting that fetus all those many years ago. I don't imagine that she ever lays awake at night thinking about what the child might have become that she would have had with that High School boyfriend, or the alternate life she might have had.

 

It's very easy to sit in judgement from afar - about what this particular girl should have done in that circumstance. It's very easy to sit in judgement about her responsibility. "You shouldn't have gotten pregnant if you weren't ready to care for a child." (true) It's also easy enough to construct an alternate scenario: a high-school girl forced to term, having to take care of a child when she was not ready or equipped, facing college, work, dating (I said her husband is a wonderful guy - I didn't say he is a saint - maybe he is, but why test it?), having 4 kids instead of 3 - one older, looking different, and congenitally disposed to being a swaggering jerk with occasional fits of violence. Of course he could have become a firefighter and saved a life, or a researcher. He could even have discovered a cure for restless leg syndrome! But that's all hypothetical.

 

Which brings me to the last point: a fetus is not a human being. It is a potential human being. If it is aborted, it does not lose its life, because it has no life of its own: It has no friends, no memories, no desires, no dreams, no fears (not even of death), no conscious attachments to anything or anyone - only a physical attachment to the womb, gradually becoming sensate as months go by. It is incorrect to refer to this as "a person". As recently as the early 60s, the Catholic church taught that people did not have a soul until some days after birth - 6 or 8 days as I recall (this probably saved a lot of trouble back in the days of high infant mortality and stillbirths). This belief has evidently been expunged from Catholic teachings in the years since then. Funny how pliable eternal truths can be.

 

I had the conversation about my cousin with an older couple on a flight up from deep in the bible belt (Oklahoma). They were talking about how fearful they were about Obama - then went into the social issues. They spoke in that soft-spoken, genteel, yet oddly aggressive manner - like a dagger cloaked in velvet - of people who believe deeply that they hold the secret of how everyone else should be living their lives. Yet, over the course of this conversation, they also let it slip out how the husband had, for a while, had a fling with some woman - but how that was over, and they had stayed married. It was clear that the wife was very injured by this, because she obviously couldn't resist getting in a barb or two (a softly spoken genteel barb - with the aggression just slightly under the surface), even in front of a complete stranger. But my cousin, married 30 years with 3 beautiful kids, my liberal self, married 30 years with 2 beautiful kids and never once an affair, Obama with his kids - always faithful, never ran off with a younger woman; we who don't feel it is our divine obligation to tell other people how to live their lives - we're not making anybody get an abortion or turn gay, or get a divorce or have an affair - we're the scary ones, the flawed ones, the ones with the moral problem.

You seem to always have a story of someone you knew and it somehow always backs up your point...Hmmmmm...interesting...

[xr7g428]

Retro,

 

I just love our posts and hope you never stop. You genuinely believe that if the world was made perfect for you, then it would be perfect for everyone else. This is exactly the problem that I have with the religious right. Don't you realize that you are very much telling people how to live their lives? The liberal push is to end suburban sprawl, and push us all into little apartments in the urban center so we can ride mass transit to our green jobs. They want us to stop eating meat and to give legal rights to animals so they can sue us for our past digressions. Society's have standards of acceptable behavior. Those standards have a direct bearing on the long term success of the society. Reshaping the standards has lead us to a present where a child has less than a 50% chance of being raised by a two parent household. Why is Gay Pride protected but St Patrick's day prohibited? Don't for a minute believe that the left is any less interested in telling people how to live.

 

In case you have not noticed, the big increase in gun purchases are the product of fear. Those people are not afraid that the government is going to give them greater freedoms. You might think about just what it is that is causing so many to pick up arms to protect their freedoms.

 

Morality and human frailty are not the exclusive province of any group of people. Those Okies, that you feel so free to dismiss, were admitting to you that they were not perfect, not without sin. You took this as validation of the measure of your moral superiority. I guess that one went right over your head. I mean they could have just said one word and ended that little fantasy: Chappaquiddick.

[napfirst]

Retro-man, besides my friend from college, my wife and I know a couple of other women who have had abortions. Not only is it hard to imagine that they're living with this massive regret, one friend of my wife's gets particularly annoyed when it's suggested that she or other women who've had this procedure might be living with some regret.

 

Don't bet on that. I spoken to her many times, since then, and I can tell you that nothing would have been more cruel than to make her bear the child of her abuser, even if that child would have been put up for adoption. As men, it's hard for us to imagine what it's like to be repeatedly on the receiving end of a spouse's fist, or worse. That becomes especially true when the woman's experience with marital intimacy is more akin to spousal rape.

 

One principle I've lived by, since my mid teens, is that a male, I have zero business and zero right to tell any female what to do with her body, and even voice the opinion that she should carry a pregnancy to term if she doesn't want to. My basis for this has always been that since, as a male, I can't get pregnant, and furthermore as male I can walk away from my responsibilities after the fact of fathering a child (and even when, as a male, while I can be forced to take some financial responsibilities, I can't be forced to be a parent, to be a dad), then I shouldn't be telling women what they should do, in regards to their reproductive health.

Nice sentiments....just walk away.....let me tell you something...if you father a child....you are a Dad...and you always will be......

And people can't understand why there are stories in the news almost every week about one parent or both starving a young child to death or locking it in a closet and torture them to death..abortion for any reason, has lower the value of children to some people, child neglect/abuse is rampant in this country.....what's it say when Micheal Vick gets prison time for killing and abusing a dog but we kill millions of babies by abortion.....and calling it a fetus..that's just to soothe the guilt.......

 

Here's a stroy that is in my local newspaper today:

 

Sue Langdon never met her grandson Ethan.

 

She had attended the births of her other grandchildren. But an illness prevented her from flying from Michigan to Norfolk when Ethan was born in February 2006.

 

By 7 weeks of age he was dead, the victim of abuse by his parents.

 

"I never got to hold him," Langdon said Friday. "The only time I got to see him was in a casket."

 

Ethan died on March 26, 2006, as his father, Anthony Huhn, sat nearby playing computer games.

 

 

An another recent local story:

 

The father and stepmother accused of killing their 5-year-old daughter stood before a judge for the first time Monday morning.

 

 

Carly died Thursday at Children's Hospital of The King's Daughters in Norfolk. The cause of her death was blunt-force trauma; contributing factors include starvation, ligature restraint, and medical neglect, police said.

The young children of this nation have become expendable.....and abortion is a major contributor to that prevasive attitude.....

[retro-man]

Retro,

 

I just love our posts and hope you never stop. You genuinely believe that if the world was made perfect for you, then it would be perfect for everyone else. This is exactly the problem that I have with the religious right. Don't you realize that you are very much telling people how to live their lives? The liberal push is to end suburban sprawl, and push us all into little apartments in the urban center so we can ride mass transit to our green jobs. They want us to stop eating meat and to give legal rights to

Whoa whoa whoa! Hey! I just finished up a couple of strips of bacon here in my suburban house, that I commute to in my Thunderbird - so don't presume to tell me what I am trying to push on everybody. I have time and time and time again on this site lamented the collapse of the middle class, and the forcing of all of us into REIT-owned apartment complexes and cheap foreign made automobiles (which changes come from right wing policies favoring the export of jobs to cheap wage countries and the concentration of wealth at the top). So I have no idea where you're getting these ideas about me. I defy you to find a post where I urged somebody to have an abortion, or stop eating meat, or sell their big car, or get rid of their gun, or become gay, or anything else you don't like.

 

As for the Okies, I know exactly what the tone of voice was, and what the psychological undercurrents were. They were not kindly confessing their sins to me in order to offer up the sage wisdom of their deep life lessons: they had repressed, festering issues, that they were evidently able to drown in a 2-person mutual chorus of bible-pounding judgementalism. She was picking at him for something that still hurt, and whatever he had once felt that caused him to take flight for a time, he had long since stuffed. It's as simple as that. I was there.

Edited July 25, 2009 by retro-man

[retro-man]

You seem to always have a story of someone you knew and it somehow always backs up your point...Hmmmmm...interesting...

I've never personally had an abortion. I swear!

[retro-man]

Nice sentiments....just walk away.....let me tell you something...if you father a child....you are a Dad...and you always will be......

And people can't understand why there are stories in the news almost every week about one parent or both starving a young child to death or locking it in a closet and torture them to death..abortion for any reason, has lower the value of children to some people, child neglect/abuse is rampant in this country.....what's it say when Micheal Vick gets prison time for killing and abusing a dog but we kill millions of babies by abortion.....and calling it a fetus..that's just to soothe the guilt.......

 

Here's a stroy that is in my local newspaper today:

 

 

 

 

An another recent local story:

 

 

The young children of this nation have become expendable.....and abortion is a major contributor to that prevasive attitude.....

Nap, those 2 tragic stories you just quoted are perfect examples of people who shouldn't have carried a child to term - or who maybe should have been forced to give it up for adoption. Abortion's got nothing to do with those stories. You're drawing a link where there isn't one.

[suv_guy_19]

First. I don't personally focus on the fact that someone had an abortion. Its over. Its done. I don't blame or hate anyone for having an abortion. For 'ME' its a sin. Just another sin. A sin just like the many I engage in every day. So you will never find me out there chanting hate towards someone that is going to have an abortion. However, I speak up against the Drs and Clinics that do these cash cow 18 hour a day money making rooms of death.

 

Do you think it is appropriate for a 19 year old girl to have her tubes tied? Many people would say she is an adult. But many people would say that the Dr is way out of line doing this for such a young girl who may change her mind in 3 years.

 

Further, as a 30 year old man with a wife and 3 kids, I could not get a vasectomy with out my wife's approval. She had to sign off on my getting a vasectomy. They would not do it with out her permission. Yet they will do it for a 19 year old girl with no children?

 

I am not arm chair judging her. But I would like her to know the real effects and affects of having an abortion. Do you really think that her later kids would not love her previous kid? They don't sound like nice kids if that is the case. But I do not think it is the case. I think she would be loving that child and so would her husband and their 3 kids. Why would they not?

 

If one does not believe in Scripture I can easily see why they do not consider a fetus a living being. No insult intended. Just a statement of understanding. Catholics have many teachings that go against scripture or are not based on scripture in any way.

 

There are many mean people that can not forgive others. Christians are not excluded from this group. Its not a fun life to live being in continual hate and anger.

 

You don't actually know what is in Obama's closet or anyone elses so I am not sure that is a very good argument?

 

Peace and Blessings

 

First, stop presuming you know why people feel the way hat they do. Second, quit attacking other churches that don't agree with yours word for word. It's condescending and arrogant.

Edited July 25, 2009 by suv_guy_19

[suv_guy_19]

abortion for any reason, has lower the value of children to some people, child neglect/abuse is rampant in this country....

 

 

Really? Or have we simply become more vigilant? Do we simply see things differently? Child abuse has unfortunately existed for a long time, and it will exist for a long time to come, again, unfortunately.

[napfirst]

Nap, those 2 tragic stories you just quoted are perfect examples of people who shouldn't have carried a child to term - or who maybe should have been forced to give it up for adoption. Abortion's got nothing to do with those stories. You're drawing a link where there isn't one.

You're entitled to your opinion.

[retro-man]

You're entitled to your opinion.

That's the first time anybody has ever said that to me.

[Len_A]

Nice sentiments....just walk away.....let me tell you something...if you father a child....you are a Dad...and you always will be......

Bullshit. There's a difference between fathering a child, which is biology, and being a Dad, which is active, involved parenting. You, being as intelligent as you are, ought to know better than to post nonsense like that.

The young children of this nation have become expendable.....and abortion is a major contributor to that prevasive attitude.....

Again, bullshit. The actual number of abortions has been dropping for quite sometime, and yet the number of abuse cases being reported has been steadily increasing. You can't make a correlation between one and other without evidence, and none exists, simply, because there is no correlation.

[Len_A]

Really? Or have we simply become more vigilant? Do we simply see things differently? Child abuse has unfortunately existed for a long time, and it will exist for a long time to come, again, unfortunately.

We've become more vigilant as a society, and we're less tolerant of abuse hiding under the guise of discipline.

[napfirst]

That's the first time anybody has ever said that to me.

Mark it on your calendar......first time for everything.....I'll make sure you're loop next time

[napfirst]

Bullshit. There's a difference between fathering a child, which is biology, and being a Dad, which is active, involved parenting. You, being as intelligent as you are, ought to know better than to post nonsense like that.

Again, bullshit. The actual number of abortions has been dropping for quite sometime, and yet the number of abuse cases being reported has been steadily increasing. You can't make a correlation between one and other without evidence, and none exists, simply, because there is no correlation.

Are you a parent?

[Len_A]

Are you a parent?

No, my wife can't have kids, and we decided we didn't want to be parents anyway. What difference does it make? I know the difference between fathering a child and being a Dad. I've seen plenty of the "fathered a child (several, actually), but was never around to be a Dad". Any jack-off can father a child. Being a parent, a Dad, is whole other thing, above and beyond getting some woman pregnant. Making child care payments, because of a court ordered paternity test, doesn't make someone a Dad, especially when the guy doesn't want any part of raising the kids. Makes him biologically their father. Doesn't make him their Dad. In fact, in both cases I know of, "Dad" is a different person entirely. Unfortunately, there's a lot more of that going around than any of us would like to see.

[macattak1]

No, my wife can't have kids, and we decided we didn't want to be parents anyway. What difference does it make? I know the difference between fathering a child and being a Dad. I've seen plenty of the "fathered a child (several, actually), but was never around to be a Dad". Any jack-off can father a child. Being a parent, a Dad, is whole other thing, above and beyond getting some woman pregnant. Making child care payments, because of a court ordered paternity test, doesn't make someone a Dad, especially when the guy doesn't want any part of raising the kids. Makes him biologically their father. Doesn't make him their Dad. In fact, in both cases I know of, "Dad" is a different person entirely. Unfortunately, there's a lot more of that going around than any of us would like to see.

 

It does make a difference. Having your own kids, like many other things, is a little bit more involved then just imagining what it would be like. I don't mean that insultingly. Only that I can only immagine what it is like to be abused. But I can't actually feel it, live it, experience it, etc.

 

If you father a child, you are the father. Period. One may not accept it, one may avoid all responsibility, one may simply walk away. Denial, avoidance, or worse does not make the connection cease to exist.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

First, stop presuming you know why people feel the way hat they do. Second, quit attacking other churches that don't agree with yours word for word. It's condescending and arrogant.

 

??? Where am I presuming?

 

"Attacking"

 

1 : to set upon or work against forcefully 2 : to assail with unfriendly or bitter words 3 : to begin to affect or to act on injuriously <plants attacked by aphids> 4 : to set to work on <attack a problem> 5 : to threaten (a piece in chess) with immediate capture

 

Pointing out that a church, religion, etc. has false doctrine is not an attack. Except, perhaps to people that can not stand a word of disagreement with their church.

 

Its not my church. Its God's scripture.

[suv_guy_19]

Pointing out that a church, religion, etc. has false doctrine is not an attack.

 

No, you're attacking based on your disagreement, and you kust did it again, above. Who are you to make that determination? You're trying to discredit the Church that is known as God's Church. I'm no fan of my Church, but I certainly am no fan of your particular belief in regard to religion.

[Len_A]

It does make a difference. Having your own kids, like many other things, is a little bit more involved then just imagining what it would be like. I don't mean that insultingly. Only that I can only immagine what it is like to be abused. But I can't actually feel it, live it, experience it, etc.

 

If you father a child, you are the father. Period. One may not accept it, one may avoid all responsibility, one may simply walk away. Denial, avoidance, or worse does not make the connection cease to exist.

 

Peace and Blessings

No offense taken. No, I can't imagine what it's like to be a parent, closest I am is an uncle. That said, I know the difference between fathering a child, and having to have a court order to provide support, but still, in this jerk's own words, not be a dad, and actually being a Dad. This one jerk actually said that to me - "The court can make me pay, but no one is going to make be a Dad". And this asshole fathered two kids - with his now ex-wife, and within a few month, his now ex-girlfriend, who he was cheating on his wife with. And to this day, he is completely absent from their lives. He's not their dad, only biologically their father.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Len_A

[Ron W.]

I can't imagine what it's liek like to be a parent

 

It's the toughest job you'll ever love.

[Len_A]

It's the toughest job you'll ever love.

Spell check, Len_A, you moron,spell check. LOL. Most parents I know say the same thing. I see it's tough. I respect most of the parents I know.