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Guest Message by DevFuse

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A.M.A. Opposes Government-Sponsored Healthcare Plan


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704 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:00 PM

Well, I didn't start the debate about Canadian healthcare here, an American did....but if you want to debate founding...

While the US was founded on the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, Canada (like Australia and most other Commonwealth Countries? was founded on the principles of peace, order, and good government. Its about individual rights and the rights of society together 100% of Canadians don't have to agree on anything. A vast majority like, use, and want the system..and so it isn't going anywhere.







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#42 OFFLINE   fmccap

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 11:45 PM

Well, I didn't start the debate about Canadian healthcare here, an American did....but if you want to debate founding...

While the US was founded on the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, Canada (like Australia and most other Commonwealth Countries? was founded on the principles of peace, order, and good government. Its about individual rights and the rights of society together 100% of Canadians don't have to agree on anything. A vast majority like, use, and want the system..and so it isn't going anywhere.

Well we are different then. To each there own.

I don't think you can say "Its about individual rights" then say "100% of Canadians don't have to agree on anything. A vast majority like, use, and want the system..and so it isn't going anywhere." because that then takes away the individual right.

"Governments have nothing. They can't create anything, they never have. All they can do is steal from one group and give it to another at the destruction of the principles of freedom, and we ought to challenge that concept." – Ron Paul

#43 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:00 AM

Many Canadians would argue that it adds to freedom. It's all a matter of perspective.

#44 OFFLINE   jpd80

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 04:23 AM

Well we are different then. To each there own.

I don't think you can say "Its about individual rights" then say "100% of Canadians don't have to agree on anything. A vast majority like, use, and want the system..and so it isn't going anywhere." because that then takes away the individual right.

Ah, different government systems.
People in commonwealth countries have greater trust of their politicians than Americans,
The American system is so grubby and corrupt with lobby groups owning politicians.......

#45 OFFLINE   timmm55

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 04:59 AM

Ah, different government systems.
People in commonwealth countries have greater trust of their politicians than Americans,
The American system is so grubby and corrupt with lobby groups owning politicians.......



That would include the AMA and drug lobbiests.

#46 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 08:42 AM

Did a doctor decide to extend the "maximum acceptable waiting time" by 150%? If so, why?

{I've rearranged the response, but left the words as written}

You want me to say that the government decides, but I can't because it wouldn't be true. The government regulates and helps fund the system...that's all.

Often, there aren't enough doctors (like in every other country) or enough equipment (like in every other country)....but since everyone has access (like in many other countries), doctors have to prioritize and people with less of a problem will have to wait.


Whether it be done by a doctor or a government bureaucrat, it's still rationing.

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#47 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 09:05 AM

Yes....but there is rationing in every system....and there always will be, especially when all people have access. Oh, and technically, since everyone gets care, it doesn't meet most definitions of rationing. People are seen in order of need. It will always be that way.

Edited by suv_guy_19, 13 June 2009 - 09:09 AM.


#48 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 09:22 AM

Yes....but there is rationing in every system....and there always will be, especially when all people have access. Oh, and technically, since everyone gets care, it doesn't meet most definitions of rationing. People are seen in order of need. It will always be that way.


Ration - To allocate among demanders by some means other than the price they are willing to pay

It's not central to the argument (for me, anyway).

In a government-administered program, priorities are set by someone other than the patient.

In the American system (for all its flaws), the individual sets his own priorities as to how (or if) he will maintain his health......

Private coverage (other than wait time insurance...which is almost useless...and insurance for dental and eye) is forbidden in Canada.

as opposed to Canada, which sets the priorities in place of the individual.

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money - Margaret Thatcher


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#49 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 09:35 AM

Our government is much different than yours it seems. Canadians set almost all of the priorities...and one priority of Canadians is maintaining and improving public health. Any party that advocated otherwise would face certain defeat.

#50 OFFLINE   Edstock

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 10:28 AM

Whether it be done by a doctor or a government bureaucrat, it's still rationing.

Don't forget the HMO manager who decides your treatment might cost the company too much, so you get "rationed", and the doctor gets told your treatment will not be paid for, and you're SOL.

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#51 OFFLINE   fmccap

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:12 AM

Many Canadians would argue that it adds to freedom. It's all a matter of perspective.

What about the others? There freedom is then being limited. There's no perspective to it, just a majority dictating the minority.

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#52 OFFLINE   ausrutherford

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:30 AM

I dont government telling my doctor what to do
I dont want government to kill private insurance as this plan would.
I dont want to wait months to get surgery like those up in canada.

#53 OFFLINE   ausrutherford

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:31 AM

Our government is much different than yours it seems. Canadians set almost all of the priorities...and one priority of Canadians is maintaining and improving public health. Any party that advocated otherwise would face certain defeat.


Yea well its just the same here. We just dont now Frickin government controling it!

#54 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:50 PM

What about the others? There freedom is then being limited. There's no perspective to it, just a majority dictating the minority.


Every country is run in such a manner. We can't stop everything because one person is opposed. In this country, and in most others, healthcare, and life, are rights. The government is obligated to provide those two things within reason. That includes sending people to other countries if needed or paying for expensive (although not usually experimental) treatments.

#55 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 12:53 PM

I dont government telling my doctor what to do


Who is proposing that? Where does it happen?

I dont want government to kill private insurance as this plan would.


Well then maybe private insurance should become more cost effective. Canada and the US have the most expensive care in the world. Yours is expensive because of all the profit built in, and ours is expensive because we have to pay staff much more than other countries with similar systems to try to keep them from moving to the US to make more money.

The role of profit industry is to make money....no matter the cost in humanity.

I dont want to wait months to get surgery like those up in canada.


Unless you need a hip or knee replacement (and not even then sometimes), you probably won't be waiting long. It all depends on how doctors assess your condition.

#56 OFFLINE   RangerM

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 01:31 PM

Don't forget the HMO manager who decides your treatment might cost the company too much, so you get "rationed", and the doctor gets told your treatment will not be paid for, and you're SOL.

I haven't. That's why I subscribe to a P.P.O. instead.

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#57 OFFLINE   jpd80

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 02:18 PM

Why not just beef up Medicare for low income earners and the poor, make it a true safety net?
That way people would have a real choice between a national system and private health cover.

Edited by jpd80, 13 June 2009 - 02:22 PM.


#58 OFFLINE   matthewq4b

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 10:42 PM

All health care is rationed and managed. It is called triage.

In the U.S who makes the decisions who gets what treatment and when ? Lets look at them all. HMO's they decide what they are going to cover how much and where it is going to get done for them to cover it. Health care professionals (of course), And the availability of facilities.

IN Canada the decision is made by Health Care professionals, and the availability of facilities.

As for waiting for months. That was/is an outstanding issue for some regions. But it is a problem that is being addressed. It is not something that will always or has always been. And if she waited 14 months for facilities to be available then she was not determined to be a high priority by her physician. And waited her turn just like all patients do based on medical triage. The great thing is here if you do not like the opinion of your doctor go see anouther and get a second opinion, they may not agree with the original prognosis and expedite the surgery.

The Only current issue with our system is wait times for elective surgeries that are non life threatening. That is the only issue we currently have and it is being corrected. And that is only problem in a few regions. Here the wait time for knee replacement surgery is 6 weeks.

How many problems are there with the U.S system ? I mean really if the U.S systems only issue was long wait times for non life threating elective surgeries then half the nation would not be calling to scrap the status quo.

As for the doctors the CMA greatly opposed Our universal system when Diefenbaker started it in the 1950's.
With basically the same concerns that the AMA has raised.
Now the CMA is one of it's strongest supporters. And routinely inputs to the government to make the system better how to provide a higher levels or care and be more cost effective

Also remember the Feds here only provide about 10%-15% of the health care dollars the rest is Funded by the provinces.
The feds are the regulatory body they do not administer, control or direct out health care system all they do is make sure that the provinces do not breach the health act. They are pretty much just the regulators.


Americans should actually be able to have a better level of care under a single user pay system than the current private for profit with out even cutting health professionals wages. Think about that.

The numbers do not lie.

The U.S spend 7% more of the GDP on health care than we do plus 31% (almost a 1/3rd) of every health dollar spent in the U.S goes to administrative overhead. Compared to 1% in Canada. There are not 100 million Americans with out health coverage. Cause that what is would take to eat up those over head costs

Basically if you replaced all the primary health insurance companies in the U.S With a single insurance payer that was non profit. The money saved would allow for every single person in the U.S to have even better coverage than currant and you would still have money left over. Meaning that the premiums company's and most Americans co pay could be reduced or eradicated. With out even capping or cutting health professionals wages.

But when all Americans are covered then the U.S is going to see same the issues all nations have as you will add millions and millions patients to the rank and file that can see the doctors when they deem they need to. Are there going to be facility and health professional shortages. No matter how it is done either private for profit single user pay or universal coverage it will happen.

But under a single user pay system there will piles of health care dollars left over that could be quickly invested in to expanding and building new facilities.

No matter how the the people the currently do not have health insurance get coverage once they do the health care system in the U.S is going to see shortages. And since the U.S system is an open free market for profit system when health care professionals are in short supply wages will go up just like any other sector, When diagnostic equipment becomes in high demand the cost of the diagnostic will go up as well (that old supply and demand in the free market) and costs will go up in step.

The U.S really has little alternative but to trash the for profit free market health care system in order to keep costs in check and provide adequate facilities. If the intention is to make sure every single person in the nation is going to have adequate coverage.

Either the status quo will have to remain, or the powers that be will have to move closer to a universal system and that will include in part socializing medicine and the personal. Any thing less than that will open the door for a potential complete melt down for health care in the U.S as you all know it.


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#59 OFFLINE   suv_guy_19

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Posted 13 June 2009 - 11:33 PM

I'll add that knee replacement median wait time is between 8 and 25 weeks depending on facility in my province at the current time.

Edited by suv_guy_19, 13 June 2009 - 11:33 PM.


#60 OFFLINE   V8 Ford

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 12:21 AM

Can someone explain to me why, of all things, health care should becomes a guaranteed right provided by taxpayer money and government run? As I understand it, the benefits from it will only affect a small amount of society and there are far more fundamental needs in life than guaranteed free medical attention. Given the limited nature of medical resources, the cost from Moral Hazard of of "free" medical care would also be high.

The whole, 'it would better if it were run by the government because of profits' reason doesn't fly. Not only does it contradict economics, but if that were the case the government should run everything, not just health care. Using Canada as an example due to higher efficiency doesn't make sense either, sometimes smaller systems are less complicated and less expensive to run. Systems with high marginal costs, like Medicine, are much more likely to experience diminishing returns to scale.
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