09 Escape 6F35 Shift Flare Problem

[simplesituations]

The owner that had this orignal problem had the 6F35 replaced, still had the same problem plus blowing fluid out the fill tube even after the level was adjusted several times. Both problems were fixed when the 6F35 was replaced a second time. They were told that some hole was enlarged for the oil blow out and a different solenoid(s) were used which corrected the shift flare problem.

 

Is it common practice to mixed brands of components where they'd need to keep a build list because that's what your saying?

 

The owner of the problem 6F35 had no recall of their VIN either.

sounds like something in the machining process, the machining process uses the same technique as the assembly line as far as parts getting scanned and where they would know what parts may be affected. Sounds like something in the main control where a hole was drilled oversized and when I mean oversized, it could be just a couple of microns and that's not visible to the naked eye.

 

When it comes to brands of components, only certain components are used for certain models and to answer that last question, I would say yes because all these are uploaded into a system to know what parts are in what transmission. So if there was a vendor issue that was caught at a later date, Ford would be able to go into the system and see if the parts are in the transmission and have the trans checked out where if it was like the past then they wouldn't know where to find them therefore calling for a mass recall of cars made between certain dates like between Jan. to June as an example. The same can be said for parts that are made inhouse as well.

[wptski]

sounds like something in the machining process, the machining process uses the same technique as the assembly line as far as parts getting scanned and where they would know what parts may be affected. Sounds like something in the main control where a hole was drilled oversized and when I mean oversized, it could be just a couple of microns and that's not visible to the naked eye.

 

When it comes to brands of components, only certain components are used for certain models and to answer that last question, I would say yes because all these are uploaded into a system to know what parts are in what transmission. So if there was a vendor issue that was caught at a later date, Ford would be able to go into the system and see if the parts are in the transmission and have the trans checked out where if it was like the past then they wouldn't know where to find them therefore calling for a mass recall of cars made between certain dates like between Jan. to June as an example. The same can be said for parts that are made inhouse as well.

A couple of microns??? The whole transmission was cover with oil! If a enlargement of a hole was the trick it would have to be easily sean with the naked eye.

 

Have you ever worked at a manufacturing/assembly plant? Parts come by the box and sometimes big enough to hold thousands of parts. We're talking about one transmission(6F35) and it's going to have the same internal components no matter where/what it goes into. If it has a component change, they'll know at what serial that started and what VIN they went into. The 6F35 has other programable options too. The new Fusion AWD will have several options unlocked for that model.

[simplesituations]

A couple of microns??? The whole transmission was cover with oil! If a enlargement of a hole was the trick it would have to be easily sean with the naked eye.

 

Have you ever worked at a manufacturing/assembly plant? Parts come by the box and sometimes big enough to hold thousands of parts. We're talking about one transmission(6F35) and it's going to have the same internal components no matter where/what it goes into. If it has a component change, they'll know at what serial that started and what VIN they went into. The 6F35 has other programable options too. The new Fusion AWD will have several options unlocked for that model.

First of all, I used that analogy of the hole could have been machined over sized and I wasn't implying that it was. Second, yes I have and do work in a plant, the very plant that builds this trans, so don't go off thinking I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

Yes, parts do come in packed in large boxes and small ones as well. These parts come in with data stamps, matrix stamps, pin stamping and so on. All this is uploaded in a system to know where these parts are in and what transmission. When it comes to components, some models share the same and some get different ones but the components may look the same but may not be. Example is the torque converter, they look the same but are different as we use 2 different converters, depending on which model.

 

Now you said solenoid, where is this solenoid located as there are a few different ones??

 

There's more than just unlocking the program to simply put this trans in that car, case housings are different as as example.

 

Also, do you know how much pressure is built up in a trans? If it was overfilled once and the pressure builds up, you could blow some seals, which could have caused the issues. Once the seals are gone, you can level off the fluid all you want but it's not going to rectify a leak. If that's what the dealership was doing then chances are the technicians didn't know either.

 

I read your post a little closer and the more I think about it it sounds as if the problem was just that, an overfilled trans that may have caused all that.

Edited March 18, 2009 by simplesituations

[wptski]

First of all, I used that analogy of the hole could have been machined over sized and I wasn't implying that it was. Second, yes I have and do work in a plant, the very plant that builds this trans, so don't go off thinking I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

Yes, parts do come in packed in large boxes and small ones as well. These parts come in with data stamps, matrix stamps, pin stamping and so on. All this is uploaded in a system to know where these parts are in and what transmission. When it comes to components, some models share the same and some get different ones but the components may look the same but may not be. Example is the torque converter, they look the same but are different as we use 2 different converters, depending on which model.

 

Now you said solenoid, where is this solenoid located as there are a few different ones??

 

There's more than just unlocking the program to simply put this trans in that car, case housings are different as as example.

 

Also, do you know how much pressure is built up in a trans? If it was overfilled once and the pressure builds up, you could blow some seals, which could have caused the issues. Once the seals are gone, you can level off the fluid all you want but it's not going to rectify a leak. If that's what the dealership was doing then chances are the technicians didn't know either.

 

I read your post a little closer and the more I think about it it sounds as if the problem was just that, an overfilled trans that may have caused all that.

I spent a little a year at the Van Dyke Plant around 1980, got laid off and returned to Sterling where I retired last year.

 

The problem wasn't a oversized hole but a the fix was enlarging a hole but I don't know what hole. The person with the problem only said a different solenoid was used.

 

Okay, since you use the TQ as an example. What's different and what do they go into? I don't think that the rearends components built at Sterling are monitored like the 6F35.

 

Any kind of gearbox will have a breather of some kind. You ever look at a installed 6F35? Attached to the fill is what appears to be a overflow rubber tube curved pointing down. It's T'd into the fill tube and also goes back to the transmission, any oild coming the fill tube would come out there. Once the overfilled oil blows out, it sould settle there but the dealer adjusted the level several times.

 

Unlocking maybe have been a bad word to use. The new Fusion with the 6F35 will have a manual override system and a hilly road selectable program.

 

If there's a issues with these 6F35's, depending on what you do there, you may have heard about them? Like the possible recall???

[simplesituations]

I spent a little a year at the Van Dyke Plant around 1980, got laid off and returned to Sterling where I retired last year.

 

The problem wasn't a oversized hole but a the fix was enlarging a hole but I don't know what hole. The person with the problem only said a different solenoid was used.

 

Okay, since you use the TQ as an example. What's different and what do they go into? I don't think that the rearends components built at Sterling are monitored like the 6F35.

 

Any kind of gearbox will have a breather of some kind. You ever look at a installed 6F35? Attached to the fill is what appears to be a overflow rubber tube curved pointing down. It's T'd into the fill tube and also goes back to the transmission, any oild coming the fill tube would come out there. Once the overfilled oil blows out, it sould settle there but the dealer adjusted the level several times.

 

Unlocking maybe have been a bad word to use. The new Fusion with the 6F35 will have a manual override system and a hilly road selectable program.

 

If there's a issues with these 6F35's, depending on what you do there, you may have heard about them? Like the possible recall???

That's the problem, people here haven't even heard of a recall, as far as we know the trans is of higher quality to other compared transmissions and is highly praised. Some trans can pass testing sequence but later have problems. I just wish I knew what hole was enlarged. Now I javen't seen the inside of an escape unless I go down to the garage and check it out. I know this much, our warrenty claims have gone down so much from this plant that we don't have that many coming back. Our people in the warrenty garage are taking trans from the lines 3 or 4 times a shift just to tear them down and make sure everything is working correctly.

 

With the TQ example, we have 2 different types, it could be a 200k TQ and another would be a 180k TQ, I would have to go look on the line to make sure but all TQ's would have to go in certain trans depending on gearing ratio.

[wptski]

That's the problem, people here haven't even heard of a recall, as far as we know the trans is of higher quality to other compared transmissions and is highly praised. Some trans can pass testing sequence but later have problems. I just wish I knew what hole was enlarged. Now I javen't seen the inside of an escape unless I go down to the garage and check it out. I know this much, our warrenty claims have gone down so much from this plant that we don't have that many coming back. Our people in the warrenty garage are taking trans from the lines 3 or 4 times a shift just to tear them down and make sure everything is working correctly.

 

With the TQ example, we have 2 different types, it could be a 200k TQ and another would be a 180k TQ, I would have to go look on the line to make sure but all TQ's would have to go in certain trans depending on gearing ratio.

If you had a problem 6F35 in your vehicle, is it possible to bypass the dealer and get it replaced where you work? I know at Sterling, if you had a bad rearend, this was possible. You could also get a locker if the ratio you got didn't come with one or wanted a different ratio. Of course, lately this became harder to do as you had to know somebody in the gear lab, etc.

 

I was in skilled trades and covered the gear lappers for a couple of years. Our trouble man just up and told me that if I ever needed a different gear ratio or a locker, just let him know.

[simplesituations]

If you had a problem 6F35 in your vehicle, is it possible to bypass the dealer and get it replaced where you work? I know at Sterling, if you had a bad rearend, this was possible. You could also get a locker if the ratio you got didn't come with one or wanted a different ratio. Of course, lately this became harder to do as you had to know somebody in the gear lab, etc.

 

I was in skilled trades and covered the gear lappers for a couple of years. Our trouble man just up and told me that if I ever needed a different gear ratio or a locker, just let him know.

we used to but since they have clamped down so much, people retired and it just seems harder to be able to get a car past the gates if it wasn't on the list.

[Ckr01]

There is now an official recall....see your dealers service rep....

 

 

MY APOLOGIES PEOPLE.... I was misled,, and did not follow up myself on this issue....

 

Just heard from our car salesman. The transmission is in and I can bring the car on Monday.

It was not a recall as I thought, it is a known problem and particles in the transmission.

Sandy

 

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion... :chairshot:

[wptski]

we used to but since they have clamped down so much, people retired and it just seems harder to be able to get a car past the gates if it wasn't on the list.

 

Yep, I understand. It's been a few years since hie last visit to Sterling but do you know a engineer named Bill Miller?

[simplesituations]

Yep, I understand. It's been a few years since hie last visit to Sterling but do you know a engineer named Bill Miller?

Nope, he's not at this plant as far as I know, I know quite a bit of them at Vandyke

[c17chief]

Just heard from our car salesman.

 

 

That's the problem right there and why you were mis-lead.

 

While there are some genuinly knowledgable ones out there, those types are VERY few and far between in my experience. It amazes me how many salesmen know little if ANYTHING accurate about the vehicles they are selling, and how most will just pull something out of their ass and give bad info rather then admit that they dont know for sure and will either find out or go to (or point you to) someone who does know. The bad part is unless you already know what the answer is or should be yourself, most people will just take what they say as fact and be none the wiser which is why I think so many of them are probably like that. My 2 cents.

[wptski]

Nope, he's not at this plant as far as I know, I know quite a bit of them at Vandyke

He was! Tranfered from Sterling before we went to Visteon. Might be long gone by now.

[Brian Johnson]

Hey guys, sorry for being so late on this. I've been meaning to research this and finally got some time today. I Googled Escape shift flare and this BON was my first hit.

 

Bought our 09 Escape last October. 4 cyl 2WD. My wife drove it for 3 weeks before I had time to really try it out. The shift flare is there on our unit; very, very obvious to me. Light to medium throttle, always 2/3 and 3/4. Sometimes 1/2. Stone cold or warmed up. Moderate to heavy throttle no problems. Since then, I've told my bride to drive around it, meaning to get on the throttle more.

 

Miles are only about 3,300 since we got it. Had it in for it's first oil change back in January and mentioned this to the Service Manager. He told us to put more miles on for the computer to "learn". He said if it keeps up they would reflash. I asked if there was an update out already and he said no. I have some time today. I will try and run it over there and have them drive it. I can easily get it to flare, they should have no problem either.

 

I haven't had a newer Ford since my 97 4.6 F150, but I see nothing has changed with the very slow TCC apply. It must be a Ford thing. It starts to apply in 4th and just barely finishes before shifting to 5th. 4th gear feels like I'm driving a CVT.

 

If anyone has heard anything lately, chime in. I will post later about my stop at the dealer.

 

Brian

Edited March 27, 2009 by Brian Johnson

[09mariner]

My wife & I purchased a new 09 Mariner in August 2008 (one of the first ones out). It's a fwd v6, and has been a complete nightmare. She drives 150 miles round trip daily for work, with additional long trips here and there as needed. That being said, she has been putting on about 3500-5000 easy highway miles a month. We've had no accidents, and it has only been dealer maintained/serviced every 5k. We started noticing little issues with the transmission within the first 3,000 miles (delay in shift to change directions, hunting for gears, hard shifts, shift flare between gear changes, felt like it came out of gear at times while driving, etc). We took it into the dealer, and they changed the shift strategy, which made it worse. We took it back and they thought it was some internal transmission part, but when they tore into the trans they discovered metal shavings. They ordered a new one. During installation, they realized one of the axles had also been damaged and it wouldn't seal, so they ordered a new axle.

 

After over 45 days in the shop, we finally got our car back. It shifted fine for the first 3000 miles or so, then started with some of the same shifting problems as before, also adding in some more dangerous issues like randomly starting out in the wrong gear when pulling out in to traffic. We took it back in. Apparently the trans was 2 quarts low due to a leaking axle seal (same side that was replaced - same dealer did the oil change/multi point inspection a month earlier... hmmm...). The dealer replaced the seal, topped of the trans and gave it back. Within a few thousand miles the same problems are starting back again. The dealer recommended we try our luck with another service department. We tried, but after reviewing the history, the other dealership refused to do anything with the transmission, so we had to go back to the original service department. We took it in a few days ago, and I got the call today that they were unable to reproduce any of the problems. I'll be interested to see how many miles they actually put on it trying. I am picking it up in the morning. They have installed a 'flight recorder' device and want us to drive it for a few days and bring it back. So far it's been in the shop for a combined total of over 60 days, with current mileage around 23k.

 

Ford has offered us a replacement deal based on MSRP, but this is really the only product they have that we liked. We're thinking about it, but don't have much faith in this product/dealer/company right now. Are we just really unlucky, or are we just in the forefront of a bigger problem due to us getting one of the first ones and putting on so many miles? We obviously got a bad trans to begin with, but I'm wondering if the current issues we're having are caused from damage from low fluid, wrong fluid, or some other service department workmanship problems. On the invoice for the transmission replacement, they listed quantity 2 XT-6-QSP fluid-transm. On the invoice for the seal replacement and fluid top-off, they listed quantity 2 XT-10-QLV additive-oil. Does anyone know what fluids these translate to? Are they even putting the right stuff in?

 

Thanks

[wptski]

09mariner:

 

I think that your manual has some toll free numbers that you should call and complain about that vehicle.

[09mariner]

wptski,

Thanks for the advise. Right now I have a contact at the executive-level, thanks to the Ford employee spouse of a friend. She is at least friendly and seems to be able to do more than the last person from Ford's customer relations department I had to deal with. I've also had to go to the owner of the dealership, nearly from day one (he's friends with my wife's uncle), so that helped for a while, but I think he's had about all he can take with this car as well.

 

Update. After 4 business days with our Mariner, the dealership didn't do anything. They put less than 30 miles on it, and said it shifted fine for them. The transmission flared between shifts once on my 2 mile drive home, and twice in the 2 mile trip my wife took it on too. I also had to go twice to pick it up because when the guy pulled it around this morning, he unplugged the flight recorder thinking it was left in there by mistake. Ugh... Now we get 3 shots to try and hit the button exactly when the car messes up. I hate this car.

 

I was talking with my neighbor this afternoon, and she has a friend with an 09 Mariner that's on it's second transmission already too. The Mercury dealer says they have gotten quite a few of the 09s in for transmission complaints, as did our Ford salesperson. Sounds like Ford hasn't worked all the bugs out of applying this transmission into this car. Looks like we'll be pushing this as far as our lemon lawyer can take it, in order to get our money back. My wife and I cannot handle replacing this with another problem Mariner/Escape, only to end up going though this painful process all over again.

[wptski]

09mariner:

 

That's odd because as you may have read above somewhere, somebody that works where the 6F35's are built stated that they have very few defective transmissions!

 

I'm not too sure about a REFUND under Lemon laws. I "think" that they replace the vehicle only.

 

The person that had this shift fllare problem started at with 300 miles on the Escape but your problem started much later. That's odd if it's the same cause.

[09mariner]

wptski:

Our car certainly wasn't perfect for the first few thousand miles, but we assumed it was just learning. So, I really can't tell you exactly when the problem(s) started - same with the second transmission. This is my wife's car, and she is a resident physician, who works long hours. Her 5-7 day commute is 75 miles each way, and she often does month-long rotations at a location 200 miles away. So needless to say, it's often difficult to schedule for service. I don't know if this other guy's issues are the same some of ours, but figured I would share our experience since it seems like there are some people on here who know this transmission and might be interested in hearing something other than then usual 'I've had the car for a whopping 500 miles and it's perfect' feedback.

 

Our car is a well-maintained, not abused, highway driver that has shifting issues even after the first transmission was replaced due to mechanical failure. Maybe we got 2 bad ones. Maybe we got one bad one and bad software/computer. I don't really know, but I do know that we now have very little faith in this product and the service department we're apparently 'stuck' with. I'm just trying to get the word out about our experience, so others can see they aren't alone.

[wptski]

09mariner:

 

The person with the shift flare problem also had the same problem on the second tranny too!

[c17chief]

I've got a bit over 2k mi on my 09 now. I have noticed the shift flare on mine as well lately. It's happened regularly but not consistantly lately if that makes any sense... In other words there is no exact condition it has happened. It's pretty random as far as speed/gear/throttle/etc goes and does it maybe 2 or 3 times max a week or so. RPM shoots up 300 or 400rpm between gears. Not too concerned with it yet though. Since it appears to be totally random, I think it is just the logic quirking a bit and not something hardware wise in the transmission. If a software update comes out addressing that, then I will bring it in when convenient (when it needs something else done) and get it, but untill (if) it does it much more often and/or consistantly it doesnt really bother me. It's def there though.

[wptski]

If a TSB ever comes out on the problem, you'll never know unless you take it in and complain. I was in my dealer the other day and asked about any TSBs pertaining to the 6F35. They said one for erratic shifts and one for slow downshifts. They didn't mention the fix for each and I didn't ask for details.

 

I had heard of a TSB for downshifts which called for a PCM reflash. Not sure if that was posted here or not but it was done on another shift flare problem on a 6F35 which didn't help!

 

Just wonder how many out there maybe be driving around with the problem and not really knowing it's there?

[Philgag]

If a TSB ever comes out on the problem, you'll never know unless you take it in and complain. I was in my dealer the other day and asked about any TSBs pertaining to the 6F35. They said one for erratic shifts and one for slow downshifts. They didn't mention the fix for each and I didn't ask for details.

 

I had heard of a TSB for downshifts which called for a PCM reflash. Not sure if that was posted here or not but it was done on another shift flare problem on a 6F35 which didn't help!

 

Just wonder how many out there maybe be driving around with the problem and not really knowing it's there?

 

Good question. On my side the tranny have been quite fine. I regulary have what I call miniflares...like 100-200 rpm revs between shift on light throttle. I do not find this disturbing at all. Last night I had two "rough" shift after a 20 min highway drive. nothing on the way back or this morning. It's my first car whith an auto tranny so I wonder if a wierd shift is OK once in a while. I'm close to 12k on the car.

 

I must say that I appreaciate the 100 000km 5 years powertrain warrenty.

[09mariner]

Update on our Mariner. It sucks. The dealer sucks. Ford sucks. Ugh! After messing around with the dealership for nearly 2 months trying to get us a flight recorder that actually worked (got 1 recording before box quit, then 2 more boxes that wouldn't record at all), we asked Ford Customer care to get a field engineer out there to properly install a box, so we could record. She sent someone out, he drove it for less than 20 miles, didn't install a flight recorder, and left. Now the dealership refuses to do anything with our car, other dealerships refuse to touch it due to workmanship concerns, and Ford says they are helpless in the matter because dealerships are independently owned and operated. So, at this point, the only way Ford is going to service this transmission, is if/when it leaves us stranded on the side of the road.

 

I did recently research the fluid types listed on the work-orders, since they didn't match up. It appears this is an LV type trans, and they put SP type fluid in when they installed the new transmission, and topped it off with LV after the axle seal failed. I brought it to the attention of the dealership owner, and the Ford customer care rep. The dealership claims they didn't do anything wrong, and have washed their hands of this car. Ford refuses to research the fluid concern, or the problems with how the transmission shifts. They say they have to go with what the dealer says, and will not research anything technical. So we're pretty much screwed. So we just bought another car, so we can leave this POS sitting, while we wait for our day in court.

 

My advice to anyone reading this is simple. Be very careful which dealership you work with, as Ford won't do anything if/when they screw up. Ford's customer care specialist for the Detroit region, doesn't do what she says she's going to, and refuses to get management involved. Stay as far away from ** Lincoln/Mercury's (Detroit/Grosse Pointe) service department as you can. Service manager ** is a real piece of work, and the owner is either clueless or just doesn't care. Good luck with Ford's customer care department, as if you live in this region, you'll be stuck with **. This winner didn't even bother to get the extended service plan applied that she gave us in January, as she tried to give it to us again last week. I asked what happened to it the last time, and she said she would have to get back with us to see why it didn't process. No word back on that yet - I'm holding my breath... :-) I guess really, the extended service plan is worthless anyway, since they either won't work on the car, or would just screw it up more anyway.

 

I suspect when this is all said and done, some unlucky person will end up with this POS, and we'll be driving something foreign. Sorry Detroit, I've supported you for years, but after 9 trips to the dealership, 60 days out of service, and horrible treatment and poor customer service, enough is enough. If something changes, I'll post an update, but otherwise, assume we either got our money back in court, or lost and traded in this car for something not affiliated with Ford.

Edited June 15, 2009 by 09mariner

[09mariner]

Well, it's obviously been a while, but it's finally just about over with. Here's an update:

 

I would like to add a few things. We had pulled a fluid sample, and sent it to Blackstone Laboratories, along with virgin samples of SP and LV fluid types. Our sample was nasty brown, not pink. They diagnosed that the correct LV type fluid was in fact likely used (ie, dealership typo on the invoice), but that it was in very poor condition with cautionary levels of aluminum. The fluid only had 9,000 miles on it, but was in line with samples at 88% of change interval mileage. Apparently the service department and the field engineer never bothered to check the quality of the fluid, or they did and just didn't care, as it was made clear to us that they weren't planning to do anything until the transmission completely failed. So much for our safety...

 

At the time of the last post (June), we finally gave up, parked the car, and bought something else to drive (non-Ford). We let the laywers do what lawyers do, and about a month ago (a month before our date to present our case to judges), Ford offered us a settlement offer that was reasonable, which we accepted. They took back the car, paid off our loan, paid for our attorney, and paid us back most of the money (money down + monthly payments made). We just dropped the car off at the dealership yesterday, and the loan payoff and settlement check should be completed, with funds cleared, in a couple of days. Whoo Hoo!

 

Overall, I think our experience is a perfect example of how Ford fails with modern marketing. Kudos to them for making their product line much more desirable, but quality, service and issue resolution are lacking. Before this experience, we were VERY loyal Ford customers, purchasing and leasing some higher-end vehicles (F150-FX4, Mustang GT Convert Premium, etc). In this modern age, companies need to focus on making/keeping their quailiy customers satisfied, and make things right quickly if/when their products or service fall short. Because of the bad dealership/service department, refusal of other local dealerships to get involved, and Ford's poor quality customer relationship center, they have lost us as customers forever. And for what?... They ended up paying more in the settlement and legal costs by dragging this out, than they would have by just giving us our money back 6-12 months ago. Oh well. While the Mariner was parked, I had purchased a used Toyota Highlander to drive. I had some routine maintenance done on it at a local dealership, and they obviously get it. They know how to treat a customer, and I suspect we'll be going back there in a couple years to buy a Lexus.

 

Regards.

[06mariner]

09 Mariner: I'm glad everything is working out in your favor finally. It's unfortunate that it took this long for the issue to be resolved and that Ford lost yet ANOTHER customer because of complete SHIT service at the local and executive levels. I am in a marketing class in college and poor service is the number 1 reason why business, small and large, end up failing, because the needs of the paying customer cannot be met. Ford CLEARLY still has a lot of work to do when it comes to the oversight of it's dealerships, as well as with managing consumer affairs at corporate level. I hope that some day you can return to Ford, as they are really trying to improve from what they used to be. Obviously their efforts are working as you can tell from how well they are doing compared with other car companies. As with any company this large,however, there is always room for improvement and Ford needs to realize that no matter how good your cars are, if the service isn't there it doesn't mean squat!

Nick