Do we really need a Modular replacement?

[jpd80]

What about just simply putting DFI onto the 5.4 3V to give the trucks a freshen up?

Not as major as a S/C but pobably enough to satisfy truck owners.

[SysEng]

These whole threads about the death of the old Triton 5.4s and the small bore modulars really got me thinking. Why does everyone hate the modular motors so much? Why is it they are convinced that they are so vastly outdated when in fact they are some of the most modern foward thinking, cleanest running family of V8s out there. Yes the bore spacing is terrible but why not just update it with a longer block to support extra bore? Is a whole new engine with suposively 2 plugs per cylinder head necessary?

 

Is a mod motor replacement ( i.e. "hurricane" ) really really necessary? Not really.

 

BUT...

 

Should something be done about the mod motor? Of course. The simplest move Ford could make is increase the bore by 3mm to 93mm and bore spacing to 107mm. As I believe someone else on this board mentioned, the base motor would be 93boreX91stroke @ 301.77CID ( can you say 302 ? instead of 6.4/281 ). The big deal here, is that the 7mm increase in bearing surface would make this engine credible in truck apps up to base F350s. And that is the entire issue here. The credibility of the modV8 to handle abusive environments.

 

I should point out that the 5.4 would become a 5.7L ( 348cid ) engine with the 105mm stroke. with the greater bearing surface, that would be quite adequate in most truck apps.

 

Where Ford might fall down then is in the 400+cid range. Of course, a 91mm stroke V12 mod would hit 452cid and I don't think anyone would complain about that in a F350-F750.

 

The other big issue, is the need to go with DOHC4V... and iron ( specifically CGI heads ). Competitive issues alone dictate this regardless of how well done the 3V may seem to be.

 

As for how much better the competition is... :huh: ? Does anyone here speak with anyone from the bowtie crowd? I get nothing but bellyaching about how much better a plain vanilla 350SBC was compare to these newfangled Vortec6000 thingys. Ford may not be up to snuff... the competiton ain't much better either...

[StevenJ]

Bear in mind the number of 5.4L Tritons Ford sells: From the Expedition, F-Series, and E-Series, Ford must move close to 400k a year.

 

Also, having a standard super charger on a truck engine does not seem like a good idea, not when this many units of a particular motor are sold.

 

I'm suggesting this as a top of the line model. Also, I'm not saying they should put a 12 psi blower on there, 5-6 psi is all they really need which should be well within the engine's limits.

 

What about just simply putting DFI onto the 5.4 3V to give the trucks a freshen up?

Not as major as a S/C but pobably enough to satisfy truck owners.

 

Direct Injection isn't a bad idea actually. It will make changing park plugs a real PITA but not a bad idea.

Edited February 26, 2007 by StevenJ

[tim kakouris]

i am NOT anti-mod. again, i have defended it forever. i was the one who said 'the cobra has 305 horses and so does the camaro!' and watched as the camaro would eat the cobra alive. then it got a boost to 320hp, same thing. then it got a supercharger and the playing field was tilted our way, but not overly so. the mod was a good motor, but we have to face facts that the competition is better, and not apologize for it but meet it. if toyota, of all people, has nearly 400hp, and gm has 370hp and dodge has 350hp, you can't very well stand aside and lose sales to those who want more. you can hardly ever win an hp war, and with trucks it's more about how the power is put down, but surely it has to be realized that sales will be lost.

 

the mod was designed in the late 80's and the first examples came to the market in '91. 16 years is an eternity in the auto world. there are new engines from every company that play the pickup truck game, and most of those companies also use their new v8's in passenger cars. it's time to catch up, again. as a base engine, the 4.6 3v is a good start. it should NOT be used in premuim applications.

 

richard, thanks for those numbers on the mods. in real life, though, it never feels as strong as other engines of the same class, and perception becomes reality on a test drive. couple that to the extra tall first gear ratio, and the perception of a sluggish engine becomes more real.

Edited February 26, 2007 by tim kakouris

[bulltrout]

However Rich, how many people really need more than 365 fts out of a gasser?

 

Not many, at least for F-150 drivers. I have a '67 Dodge PU with a 318. I believe it was rated for something like 230-250 fts when new, and 190 HP. And those are old, inflated specs. Probably puts about 100 HP to the rear wheels today. Still, it's great for Home Depot runs and trips to the dump. I've stacked quite a few bricks in the bed of that rig. Wouldn't put a trailer behind it and try to go 75 mph on the interstate, however. Heck, it gets a little scary at when the speedo bumps 60, without a load.

 

As far as fitting a V10 in the F-150, they either should have engineered for it in the redesign, or built the Hurricane four years ago. One way or another, it's an example of confused, bad decision making at Ford. And this is Ford's most important vehicle.

 

Same goes for the six speed. Build the tranny to fit your most important vehicle, or change the truck. But just get it done.

 

I realize a redesign is a year away, but when your most important vehicle is finishing in last place in magazine test (no matter how bias), you've got problems. Engine and tranny upgrades would have made a difference.

[tim kakouris]

i also find it hard to believe that such a big (perceived or real) hp deficit can be passed off as nonsense when there are people here who decry the fusion for a bad dash. or who complain that the escape has drum rear brakes. or the five hundred is too boring.

 

everybody has their hot buttons, i guess. i would think that a competitive engine, even on paper, would be a hot button for most.

[igor]

I want to point out one FLAW of this discussion:

 

it is this claim:

 

"How many people really need ......"

 

In consumer/capitalist society it does not matter what people/consumers NEED .. what matters is what they WANT ... if there is a demand for XXXX (e.g. 450hp trucks) Ford as a for-profit company has a duty (or at least interest) to provide something that will satisfy this WANT. Ford is not in a position to to tell people "you do not need that much HP, you 300hp 5.4l is as good as any other engine" - the consumers could not care less - in the end, Ford is in the business in satisfying consumers' wants and desires - not in educating them of their actual needs.

 

The proliferation high-output Trucks in the recent years clearly signals that consumers want high power trucks ... and I think Ford should provide it.

 

Igor

[RichardJensen]

richard, thanks for those numbers on the mods. in real life, though, it never feels as strong as other engines of the same class, and perception becomes reality on a test drive. couple that to the extra tall first gear ratio, and the perception of a sluggish engine becomes more real.

I can't say, as far as the manual transmissions go, but with the Mods and automatic transmissions, another factor that works against the delivery of power to the wheels (at least according to Extreme 4x4, who used to own a transmission shop, and who should know) is that some of Ford's automatic transmissions have this extra doohickey (she said what it was, I forget) that slows the speed of a shift, in order to provide a smoother gear change.

 

Before the Vortec 6.0 got its power boost, IIRC, the F-Series used to beat it pretty handily at passing speeds (the F150 would lose to the Chevy in 0-60 time, but have a higher trap speed at the end of the quarter mile--again, IIRC).

[bulltrout]

I think it's understood that we're talking "wants" rather than "needs" with the Boss. It's just a question of which route to satisfy the "want" makes the most sense.

 

I can't imagine I'd ever "need" more than what the 5.4 puts out in an F-150, especially if I can get it with a 6-speed. But I think Ford NEEDS to have an engine that satisfies the desire for a more power. You can't have Toyota blowing away your powertrain choices if you intend to stay on top.

Edited February 26, 2007 by bulltrout

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Ford has, from the factory, programmed the ECUs to pull a little bit of spark timing around shifts to make them feel buttery smooth, for quite some time now. That's one of the things that a lot of the chip and tune companies do when they crack open the code, they remove that little feature. It does make a performance difference.

 

As for the MODs and dgi, here are some ballpark specs for you. DGI, using the same type of gas as a non DGI engine, and taking a balanced to slightly power biased approach to the performance/economy gains that it nets you, can give you about 10% more torque across the band. That gives...

 

4.6L 3V DGI est 330 HP / 352 lbs torque on regular gas. 360 HP / 385 lbs on premium

5.4L 3V DGI est 330HP / 395 lbs torque on regular gas. 360 HP / 435 Lbs on premium

6.8L V10 DGI (with VCT which was not in the production engines) ~405 HP / ~500 lbs of torque on regular gas. 440 HP / 550 lbs on premium

 

proper DGI tuning requires raising the compression of the cylinders by .75 to 1 or so and reprofiling the cams a bit. DGI also effectively increases the volumetric efficiency of the intake side of the engine a bit as the gas no longer displaces inbound air into the cylinder. This also makes forced induction more efficient as well. An interesting academic exercise that will never see the light of day is the following:

 

5.8L V10 DGI (with VCT) 400HP / 435 lbs on regular gas. 440 HP / 475 lbs on premium.

 

The premium numbers are likely VE limited, in that the induction and exhaust systems may not flow enough air to make those lofty power numbers. So, you'd see breathing upgrades and likely fueling upgrades to the engines to achieve those power levels.

 

The MOD was not a horrible engine, just compromised and conservatively tuned for most of its life.

[Hemiman]

Ford has, from the factory, programmed the ECUs to pull a little bit of spark timing around shifts to make them feel buttery smooth, for quite some time now. That's one of the things that a lot of the chip and tune companies do when they crack open the code, they remove that little feature. It does make a performance difference.

 

As for the MODs and dgi, here are some ballpark specs for you. DGI, using the same type of gas as a non DGI engine, and taking a balanced to slightly power biased approach to the performance/economy gains that it nets you, can give you about 10% more torque across the band. That gives...

 

4.6L 3V DGI est 330 HP / 352 lbs torque on regular gas. 360 HP / 385 lbs on premium

5.4L 3V DGI est 330HP / 395 lbs torque on regular gas. 360 HP / 435 Lbs on premium

6.8L V10 DGI (with VCT which was not in the production engines) ~405 HP / ~500 lbs of torque on regular gas. 440 HP / 550 lbs on premium

 

proper DGI tuning requires raising the compression of the cylinders by .75 to 1 or so and reprofiling the cams a bit. DGI also effectively increases the volumetric efficiency of the intake side of the engine a bit as the gas no longer displaces inbound air into the cylinder. This also makes forced induction more efficient as well. An interesting academic exercise that will never see the light of day is the following:

 

5.8L V10 DGI (with VCT) 400HP / 435 lbs on regular gas. 440 HP / 475 lbs on premium.

 

The premium numbers are likely VE limited, in that the induction and exhaust systems may not flow enough air to make those lofty power numbers. So, you'd see breathing upgrades and likely fueling upgrades to the engines to achieve those power levels.

 

The MOD was not a horrible engine, just compromised and conservatively tuned for most of its life.

 

Once again, the limiting factor is not the MOD's ability to make HP. It's the lack of the bearing's ability to stand up to the pressures created by that HP for long periods. The MOD has shown it can make 550 HP in the GT. But put that engine in a loaded F-250, and you'll have bearing failure, even with the top shelf internals.

[Blue II]

I know, I'm just teasing you. In all serious though, thoose V6s that make that kind of power have some serious technology like Direct Injection and require fancy premium fuel. Not to say my motor doesn't but the new 3vs run on 87 plus the make 300 hp and over 300 fts of torque. Thoose fancy 3.5 V6s make the 300 hp but only about 280 fts of torque or so and also require 93. Ford has Direct Injection technology as proven on their new 3.5 V6s on the autoshow circuits. If Toyo can get 380hp from a 4.6 with Direct injection and DOHC, then there is no reason Ford can't either. I'm sure the modular motors are more than capable. Hell, I've read on modular depot that there were some N/A modular guys wtih DOHC Intechs gettting 400 hp at the fly wheel with ported heads and better sets of cams. You see that's the problem with this motor, it has the potentinal but Ford keeps pussy footing around making em that way from the factory. It really is a good motor.

 

The 4.6 and 5.4 DI programs have been cancelled. The last MY for the 5.4 3V is 2010.

[351cid]

The 6.8L V-10 has a record of many engines exceeding 250K in SuperDutys. I'm not sure where this durability issue comes from.

[silvrsvt]

The 6.8L V-10 has a record of many engines exceeding 250K in SuperDutys. I'm not sure where this durability issue comes from.

 

 

I had a Uhaul truck with a V10 that I had to drive 1000 miles round trip to NC for work that had 162K on it and it still ran like a top. Ate gas like Mofo though

[White99GT]

Once again, the limiting factor is not the MOD's ability to make HP. It's the lack of the bearing's ability to stand up to the pressures created by that HP for long periods. The MOD has shown it can make 550 HP in the GT. But put that engine in a loaded F-250, and you'll have bearing failure, even with the top shelf internals.

 

Those Ford GTs, GT500s, Terminators, and Cobra Rs see more abuse to the main-bearings than your trypical work-truck will. Spinning an engine up to 7,000 rpm on a regular basis puts more stress on bottom end components than lugging a 6,000 lb. trailer up a boat launch at 2,000 rpm.

 

There's a reason why I've seen NUMEROUS 4.6 and 5.4 F-150s that have been poorly maintained, beat on, worked to death still running fine with well over 200,000 miles while a Mustang that has been raced and beat on without proper maintenance will usually have given up the ghost well before 200,000 miles.

 

The Mods haven't really had main bearing issues for about a decade and the narrow mains aren't a limiting factor in making reliable horsepower, IF you keep the oil pan full.

 

IIRC, I think you used to claim the reason the Mods didn't make big horsepower was due to the bearing surfaces, you seemed to think Ford was unwilling to warranty a high horsepower Modular. I see you have modified your position slightly due the the GT(40) and GT500 -- so now they just won't hold more than 300hp power in work trucks.

[White99GT]

The 6.8L V-10 has a record of many engines exceeding 250K in SuperDutys. I'm not sure where this durability issue comes from.

 

The better question is, what durability issue. It only exists in Hemiman's mind.

 

How many 2,000+ horsepower Modulars, 300K mile worktrucks, taxis, 550 hp supercars, 380 horsepower 4,800lb. Lightnings do you need to see before you realize the narrow bearings aren't hurting these engines in the least?

Edited February 27, 2007 by White99GT

[Biker16]

This is and will always be a cost issue.

 

what is the most cost effective way to get more power and torque into the f150?

 

New engine vs smarter more expensive Modular engine.

 

development costs of a new engine vs higher per unit costs of a high tech modular engine.

 

 

it may be an oversimplification of things but it was cheaper and more affordable long term to build new than to GDI and or SC the Modular.

[jpd80]

A simple alternative might be to use siamesed CGI blocks, increase the bores to 3.7" and add DFI to all engines.

The resulting 5.0 replaces the 5.4, the new 5.9 and 7.4 (?) V10 replace the 6.8 V10.

I could see the 5.0 being very popular in the Mustang and F-150. while the 5.9/7.4 continue in the larger trucks.

Probably oversimplified and a lot more money than Ford would care to spend.

Edited February 27, 2007 by jpd80

[Hemiman]

Those Ford GTs, GT500s, Terminators, and Cobra Rs see more abuse to the main-bearings than your trypical work-truck will. Spinning an engine up to 7,000 rpm on a regular basis puts more stress on bottom end components than lugging a 6,000 lb. trailer up a boat launch at 2,000 rpm.

 

 

We'll have to disagree on this one. Lugging an engine is far more detrimental to an engine than running at red-line. IMHO

 

There's a reason why I've seen NUMEROUS 4.6 and 5.4 F-150s that have been poorly maintained, beat on, worked to death still running fine with well over 200,000 miles while a Mustang that has been raced and beat on without proper maintenance will usually have given up the ghost well before 200,000 miles.

 

I've had them in my fleet (35 utility trucks F-350+450 & E350) for 10+ yrs. All are 2V 5.4s and have provided very good service in the E-350s. However, in the bucket trucks, wev'e had bearing failure in less than 60K in some cases. Not a problem anymore since they're all diesels now. BTW I've had few issues with the 6.0 PSD other than a re-flash of the ECM.

 

The Mods haven't really had main bearing issues for about a decade and the narrow mains aren't a limiting factor in making reliable horsepower, IF you keep the oil pan full.

 

We have a good maint program & our oil pans are kept full.

 

IIRC, I think you used to claim the reason the Mods didn't make big horsepower was due to the bearing surfaces, you seemed to think Ford was unwilling to warranty a high horsepower Modular. I see you have modified your position slightly due the the GT(40) and GT500 -- so now they just won't hold more than 300hp power in work trucks.

 

1/2 correct: Yes, I have discussed bearing issues with the MOD. No, I don't racall saying the MOD won't make good power and hold up. I've always known the bearing failure was due to heavy lugging. I think I used Marine apps as an example of extreme duty cycles, last time I discussed this topic in detail.

 

I've done a lot of work on 4.6's making up to 1000hp on NO2 with basicaly stock bottom ends. If you remember my old posts you'll, know that I originally came here looking for info on the 5.4 Navigator MOD for a street rod project. You'll also remember my posts regaurding the 4.6 being a good engine to destroke and turn at 8K+ rpms. Still think there's room for the MOD in 4.0, 4.2(destroked) and 4.6 forms, (see my more recent posts). Not sure my position has changed at all. My experience with the MOD hasn't.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Hemiman