Do we really need a Modular replacement?

[StevenJ]

These whole threads about the death of the old Triton 5.4s and the small bore modulars really got me thinking. Why does everyone hate the modular motors so much? Why is it they are convinced that they are so vastly outdated when in fact they are some of the most modern foward thinking, cleanest running family of V8s out there. Yes the bore spacing is terrible but why not just update it with a longer block to support extra bore? Is a whole new engine with suposively 2 plugs per cylinder head necessary?

 

Anyway, what I'm really getting at, is a 6.0l V8 gasser really that necessary? I mean, hell, the current 5.4l already makes about 300 hp and 365fts of torque at very useable rpms. All it really needs is a six speed auto to give it a wider range of gearing. However, it is more than just that. I think we are all going aorund this whole 'lack of power' thing the wrong way. Everyone here seems convinced that the only to make more power is more displacement and N/A. Has anyone here actually considered there is another far more cost efficent and reliable alternative?

 

Why not just throw on a roots blower like an M90 or M112? As many modular hot rodders and modular fans, like myself, know that these motors respond exceptionally well to forced induction. I mean hell, there are already a ton of supercharger kits on the aftermarket for the 5.4, why not just sell one from the factory under warranty? I mean, wouldn't a roots blown 5.4l V8 give you far more than enough torque to pull just about anything you need? Just make it 6-7 psi and give it forged internals. Bam! Problem solved in a nice cost efficient and reliable manor.

Edited February 26, 2007 by StevenJ

[napoleon]

These whole threads about the death of the old Triton 5.4s and the small bore modulars really got me thinking. Why does everyone hate the modular motors so much? Why is it they are convinced that they are so vastly outdated when in fact they are some of the most modern foward thinking, cleanest running family of V8s out there. Yes the bore spacing is terrible but why not just update it with a longer block to support extra bore? Is a whole new engine with suposively 2 plugs per cylinder head necessary?

 

Anyway, what I'm really getting at, is a 6.0l V8 gasser really that necessary? I mean, hell, the current 5.4l already makes about 300 hp and 365fts of torque at very useable rpms. All it really needs is a six speed auto to give it a wider range of gearing. However, it is more than just that. I think we are all going aorund this whole 'lack of power' thing the wrong way. Everyone here seems convinced that the only to make more power is more displacement and N/A. Has anyone here actually considered there is another far more cost efficent and reliable alternative?

 

Why not just throw on a roots blower like an M90 or M112? As many modular hot rodders and modular fans, like myself, know that these motors respond exceptionally well to forced induction. I mean hell, there are already a ton of supercharger kits on the aftermarket for the 5.4, why not just sell one from the factory under warranty? I mean, wouldn't a roots blown 5.4l V8 give you far more than enough torque to pull just about anything you need? Just make it 6-7 psi and give it forged internals. Bam! Problem solved in a nice cost efficient and reliable manor.

 

 

It would be nice to have a New Ford motor make some real horsepower on nuts alone. Im all for unnatural help but the more power it makes without pressure the better capable it will be of making way more under boost.

[Sixt9coug]

as above, it would be nice to not NEED the blower to make power. hell, how hard is it to make the 390hp the Terminator Cobra's had out of a NA 4.6SOHC?

 

and why do it with the modular? engine bay space is tight enough. do we really need to make the engine externally larger? going to the junkyards and seeing the Crown Vics and Thunderbirds in there, the 4.6SOHC looks WIDER than the 390 FE in my Galaxie. a decent pushrod motor can be made smaller, more efficient and more powerful.

 

i HATE to bring it up, but look at the LSX for what can be done. the LSX certainly seems to be the benchmark for a modern pushrod motor.

[Hemiman]

These whole threads about the death of the old Triton 5.4s and the small bore modulars really got me thinking. Why does everyone hate the modular motors so much? Why is it they are convinced that they are so vastly outdated when in fact they are some of the most modern foward thinking, cleanest running family of V8s out there. Yes the bore spacing is terrible but why not just update it with a longer block to support extra bore? Is a whole new engine with suposively 2 plugs per cylinder head necessary?

 

Anyway, what I'm really getting at, is a 6.0l V8 gasser really that necessary? I mean, hell, the current 5.4l already makes about 300 hp and 365fts of torque at very useable rpms. All it really needs is a six speed auto to give it a wider range of gearing. However, it is more than just that. I think we are all going aorund this whole 'lack of power' thing the wrong way. Everyone here seems convinced that the only to make more power is more displacement and N/A. Has anyone here actually considered there is another far more cost efficent and reliable alternative?

 

Why not just throw on a roots blower like an M90 or M112? As many modular hot rodders and modular fans, like myself, know that these motors respond exceptionally well to forced induction. I mean hell, there are already a ton of supercharger kits on the aftermarket for the 5.4, why not just sell one from the factory under warranty? I mean, wouldn't a roots blown 5.4l V8 give you far more than enough torque to pull just about anything you need? Just make it 6-7 psi and give it forged internals. Bam! Problem solved in a nice cost efficient and reliable manor.

 

 

The MODs problem isn't HP. It could and has made LOTS of it. But, in a truck's duty cycle, it won't hold up making much more than the 300HP it's at right now. The raeson is the narrow bearing surfaces dictated by the compact (short) bore spacing.

 

Why not just stretch the MOD's bore spacing? Cause that would change every major component of the engine, creating a new engine. I would think the Hurricane does take all we've learned from the MOD and updates it to include the latest in DGI and cam phasing, while leaving room for future tech as they're developed.

 

I think the MOD should continue on, hopefully with a shorter deck height, in 4.2 300HP & 4.6 350HP for FWD/AWD applications. This could be done in car apps without stressing the bearing loads.

 

Just my two cents

[LSFan00]

These engines still win 1 of 10 spots in the Ward's best each year (usually the 3v in a car). I'm not sure, but I don't think they get the core's from Italy any longer, and it's hard not to make money with an engine that has been produced for over 10 years, so hopefully they can soldier on as a reliable v8 in the car segment for another 5-7 years, but like above, they won't likely be competitive as V8 premium engines for the performance crowd, especially with everyone moving to 500hp. Noncompetitive at high-torque truck apps, and performance sports cars, limits a v8 in terms of development potential though.

[tim kakouris]

it doesn't matter. the mod is too big, too heavy, and short on torque. when it was introduced, it was even more gutless.

 

i've defended the mod for many, many years. but sooner or later, you have to give in and accept that the competition makes more power with less weight and smaller size. and, any time true power is dragged out of it, the mod sucks gas like there is no tomorrow.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

IMHO, the mod setup was compromised for two reasons. The first was making it workable in a FWD application (The early 90s continental), which is why the MODs are relatively short in dimension front to back (or so I've been told). The second was for emissions purposes. I believe that Ford thought that emissions regs were going to toughen much more than they did. Its one of the reasons that, though their engines may lack in raw power, they are almost always leaders in emissions testing. Those narrow bores in the MODs make for good emissions profiles and short engines, but, they require long strokes to get big displacements.

 

Also, IMHO, Ford made a mistake when they compromised the design in the way that they did. They were looking for economies of scale and sacrificed flexibility to get that. They should have developed two engine families that shared as much as possible between the two families and then as much as possible inside the families. One would have ideally been a smaller V8, designed for displacements from 4.2L to 5.0L and another should have been a V8 designed for displacements from 5.4L to 6.2L. V-10s could have been made from either one.

[RichardJensen]

short on torque

Come again?

[tim kakouris]

short on torque. c'mon, richard. i've owned 6 different cars with mods, and nothing says 6-cylinder more than a mod motors low end. the 4-valvers are even worse. (4.6's in cars, not trucks. maybe the 5.4 is different, but WOW that's a big honkin' motor!!)

 

i came from 302's and 351's, and have driven a few modern LSx engines.

 

....short on torque, unless you supercharge it, adding even more weight, complexity, and size.

Edited February 26, 2007 by tim kakouris

[RichardJensen]

Maybe you should check out the specs on the 5.4L and 6.8L 3V Mods, as compared with other engines in other pickups. Ford also claims 80% torque availability off idle at 1000RPM.

 

You shouldn't be in such a hurry to assign an engine family the size, age, and variety of the Mods with a single 'low on torque' epithet.

[StevenJ]

short on torque. c'mon, richard. i've owned 6 different cars with mods, and nothing says 6-cylinder more than a mod motors low end. the 4-valvers are even worse. (4.6's in cars, not trucks. maybe the 5.4 is different, but WOW that's a big honkin' motor!!)

 

i came from 302's and 351's, and have driven a few modern LSx engines.

 

....short on torque, unless you supercharge it, adding even more weight, complexity, and size.

 

To be fair, all modern OHC motors are much larger than their pushrod cusins and all of the Euro and Japanese V8s are of similar size and displacement and are also OHC. From the Nissan V8s used in in the M45/ Q45 to the BMW 750s and 550s, to the Lexus 4.3ls, and even the Northstar V8s. Thoose OHC heads do take up a lot space.

 

Also to be fair to the mod motors, they do take very well to supercharging and I for one think a small psi roots blower would be a good idea and would add far more than enough low end torque to easily outclass anything in the field and would also prove to be reliable and wouldn't do much to increase weight. I mean, all super modern duties are tuboed so how much more complex can a simple roots blower equipped gasser be? Many Manufactures including Trilogy motorsports and Roush racing make competent and durable roots kit for this motor so why not? It's not too pricey, only about $6,000 over a base 5.4 but you'd be getting 100 more fts of torque. The only true downside is the need for 93 vrs 87. The gas millage shouldn't be too much different, within 1-2 mpg assuming depending on the tuning.

Edited February 26, 2007 by StevenJ

[tim kakouris]

listen, it's not just me. i think the mods make a pretty good truck motor, that goes without saying. but put them in sporting applications, like the mustang, marauder, etc. and you don't have enough low end torque, and they can't be revved high enough without a massively expensive buildup of the bottom end.....this statement can be echoed a thousand times from anyone who has enjoyed the low end torque from a windsor or a chevy, and i'd venture to guess a new hemi. look around on the web, it's common.

 

besides that, how many cars could not fit the mod motor because of it's size? lincoln ls, which screamed for a more robust engine, for one.

 

and gas milage? when the 4.6 is pushed hard, it doesn't get any better milage than a 5.0.

[StevenJ]

listen, it's not just me. i think the mods make a pretty good truck motor, that goes without saying. but put them in sporting applications, like the mustang, marauder, etc. and you don't have enough low end torque, and they can't be revved high enough without a massively expensive buildup of the bottom end.....this statement can be echoed a thousand times from anyone who has enjoyed the low end torque from a windsor or a chevy, and i'd venture to guess a new hemi. look around on the web, it's common.

 

besides that, how many cars could not fit the mod motor because of it's size? lincoln ls, which screamed for a more robust engine, for one.

 

and gas milage? when the 4.6 is pushed hard, it doesn't get any better milage than a 5.0.

 

Too that statement, since you drive a CUV/ minivan and I actually own one of the listed modular vehicles mentioned in that statement, I can attest to the fact that the DOHC 4.6 is a little low on low end torque from the factory. However, I must note that my car is modiffied with a few boltons and I have found that this motor can make excellent mid range power and still get decent mpg. Sure it may not have the low end pull of a 460 but it really doesn't need it either. Also, unlike it's big block ancestors, the DOHC 4.6 is a screamer on the highway and it never lets up up like the small blocks and big blocks of the past.

 

I can also attest that Ford's poor tuning with that motor from the factory sucks and easily holds it back from its true potentinal. Drive a slightly modded Marauder, like my car, with 4.10s and a tune and you'll see what I mean. With that combo, I got plenty of pull from off the line and still manage an over all 17 to 19 mpg with mixed city and highway driving which are fairly respectable numbers. Of course, I also got Mustang Cobra mainfolds, and highflow cats plus xpipe which help too as far as increasing MPG and power but that's besides the point. Plus, no pushrod will never touch the smoothness of the power delivery and the silky smooth idle these motors have.

Edited February 26, 2007 by StevenJ

[tim kakouris]

back off on the ownership there, SJ. i said above that i have owned 6 modular equipped cars, including dohc models. when v6's are making as much power as the 4.6, even the 3 valve, there is something wrong there, and that isn't up for debate.

 

and, guess why you need those 4.10's? guess why most dohc mod owners even go to 4.30's or even 4.56's?

 

and, we aren't talking about smoothness and power delivery, are we? but, if we were, i don't hear many people complaining about power delivery in their LSx's or Hemi's. and ever hear about the mileage on a LSx engine? pretty damned impressive.

 

sorry to tickle your funny bone there, just speaking truth. i'm a die hard ford fan, and have nothing but fords in my driveway. but the mod motor ain't no sporty motor, period. it's a work horse.

[tim kakouris]

and richard, i didn't give the mod a single epithet...i gave it three:

 

i said

 

too big (bigger than a 460 in dohc guise)

too heavy

too low on torque

 

you act as if everyone here are kids just wanting to jump into the horsepower wars. i'm 40 years old and have been a car buff for 25 years, so please stop with the father act every time someone puts forth an opinion. it MAY just be an opinion based on experience and research, like mine.

[StevenJ]

I know, I'm just teasing you. In all serious though, thoose V6s that make that kind of power have some serious technology like Direct Injection and require fancy premium fuel. Not to say my motor doesn't but the new 3vs run on 87 plus the make 300 hp and over 300 fts of torque. Thoose fancy 3.5 V6s make the 300 hp but only about 280 fts of torque or so and also require 93. Ford has Direct Injection technology as proven on their new 3.5 V6s on the autoshow circuits. If Toyo can get 380hp from a 4.6 with Direct injection and DOHC, then there is no reason Ford can't either. I'm sure the modular motors are more than capable. Hell, I've read on modular depot that there were some N/A modular guys wtih DOHC Intechs gettting 400 hp at the fly wheel with ported heads and better sets of cams. You see that's the problem with this motor, it has the potentinal but Ford keeps pussy footing around making em that way from the factory. It really is a good motor.

Edited February 26, 2007 by StevenJ

[03 LS]

I believe the 4.6 mod will survive, the 5.4 will be canned after Boss engines are introduced.

 

If the new Boss will be physically smaller (or same) than a 4.6 mod, than Ford should focus on maximize the fuel efficiency of the 4.6. The reason is with a 5.8 Boss, 300hp/300tq is all we really need out of a 4.6. Remember, a 2v 4.6 in a CV can get 28mpg real world driving on highway. If we can tune a 300/300 4.6 to have the same mpg (with the right transmission of course), it would be ideal. V8 still has its clout in US. Given a choice, say a 300/300 4.6 mod or a 300/300 duratec 3.7 with the same mpg number, which one would you choose? And I have serious doubts that, out of the gate, Ford can give us a 300/300/28mpg duratec37.

[Sizzler]

Are we hearing the dying moans from members of the modular mafia?

 

Wonder how they recognize each other? Secret signs, handshakes, make an "M" with arms akimbo?

 

Do they smoke kudzu in belief that like it, the modular cannot be killed?

 

It's a secret brotherhood seeing their congregation fading away, what can they do to keep them? Promise hell and damnation to the non-believers, suffering and hardship if they go down the 'wrong' path?

[StevenJ]

Are we hearing the dying moans from members of the modular mafia?

 

Wonder how they recognize each other? Secret signs, handshakes, make an "M" with arms akimbo?

 

Do they smoke kudzu in belief that like it, the modular cannot be killed?

 

It's a secret brotherhood seeing their congregation fading away, what can they do to keep them? Promise hell and damnation to the non-believers, suffering and hardship if they go down the 'wrong' path?

 

Oh and we are the bad guys? So now it is a crime to be a Modular fan? Oh you people are great. Lot of support from a Ford website for a Ford motor, yup.

[RichardJensen]

please stop with the father act every time someone puts forth an opinion. it MAY just be an opinion based on experience and research, like mine.

Your 'opinion' is on a subject that is easily verified by factual research:

 

Viz:

 

5.4L Mod motor torque production: 365lb ft at 3750RPM

5.7L HEMI torque production: 375lb ft at 4000RPM

5.3L LSX torque production: 340lb ft at 4200RPM

5.7L Nissan torque production: 385lb ft at 3600RPM*

5.7L Toyota torque production: 401lb ft at 3600RPM*

 

*Premium gas power rating

 

The Mod has the second lowest torque numbers on this tally, true. However, it also spots the Dodge, Nissan, and Toyota motors roughly 18 cubic inches of displacement, and those that exceed it by a significant margin do so on premium gas.

 

If we look at numbers of comparable 4.6-4.8L motors, the torque numbers are as follows:

 

4.6L Mod (Mustang trim): 320lb ft at 4500RPM

4.6L Mod (Explorer trim): 300lb ft at 3900RPM

4.7L Magnum (Commander): 305lb ft at 3600RPM

4.7L Magnum (Ram): 300lb ft at 3500RPM

4.8L Vortec: 305lb ft at 4800RPM

4.7L Toyota: 313lb ft at 3400RPM*

 

*Premium gas power rating.

 

Peak torque numbers are competitive--with the exception of Toyota's all new iForce V8. This V8 is the reason why Ford needs a higher displacement motor. They need to hit at least 400lb ft of torque to be competitive. And looking at these numbers it should be clear that only one company has clearly outdistanced the pack.

 

-----

 

As far as off the line torque is concerned, might I remind you that transmission gearing is hardly consistent among mfrs.

 

Dodge Ram 1st gear: 4.04:1

Chevy Silverado 1st gear: 4.02:1

Ford F150 1st gear: 2.72:1

 

Now do you think THAT might have something to do with a lack of low-end grunt in Ford pickups?

 

As far as comparing the 4.6L Mod with the HO 5.0L that preceded it, I don't have any resources to draw off of. As far as Mod motor output through Ford's panthers is concerned, I don't have any resources to draw off of.

 

But as the data above show, Ford is hardly 'routed' by the competition when it comes to peak torque, nor (with a claimed 80% of peak torque available at 1000RPM--significantly, no other manufacturer makes this claim about their engine) do the 5.4L and 6.8L Mods lack low-end torque.

 

Where it is abundantly clear that Ford is at a disadvantage is 1st gear. Ford's 1st gear has roughly the same ratio as the Dodge and Chevy 2nd gears.

 

----------

 

I welcome the new Boss motor, as the Mod has obviously reached its upper limit in displacement, and likely torque production as well.

 

Don't confuse my objections with distorted grumbling passed off as legitimate criticisms as unyielding support for the status quo.

Edited February 26, 2007 by RichardJensen

[bulltrout]

While the answer is "Yes," Ford needs a mod replacement, that doesn't mean the engine line is a failure.

 

Part of the angst regarding the mods has more to due with Ford's dawdling in developing a more powerful engine for the F-150. It seems a V10 based on the 4.6 - displacing about 5.8 liters - could have been developed 5 years ago that would have served as a bridge until the Hurricane/Boss was ready. While the 5.4 in it's 3V form is a good truck powerplant, its design limitations - bore spacing et al - are obvious.

 

The 4.6 is a great motor. It puts out decent peak power, and maybe a broader powerband than the competition. It's smooth and reliable. The 2V 4.6 in my Explorer puts out all the power I'll ever need, and seems perfectly matched to that vehicle.

 

Ford does need a new V8 with bore spacings that allow for larger displacements for a high end engine for the F-150 and as a base engine for the F-250-350. If the company had acted a little faster I doubt the sectarian conflict between the Mod Mafia and - for lack of a better description - the anti-Mod Mafia would be so heated.

 

Seems as thought the 4.6 will survive in cars and light trucks, as a previous post mentioned, with an emphasis on improving MPG. The Boss should replace the 5.4 and 6.8 - both good engines but with key limitations - in trucks.

[RichardJensen]

No room for 2 extra cylinders in the F150 engine bay.

[Hemiman]

No room for 2 extra cylinders in the F150 engine bay.

 

 

OOOH, "Short Hood Syndrome" rears its ugly head yet again!

[StevenJ]

However Rich, how many people really need more than 365 fts out of a gasser? Plus with the addition of a new six speed auto soon, is it really that necessary? I mean for all the development dollars that it would take to fulfill a very small market segment, why not just throw a blower on the current 5.4 and strengthen the internals? Considering cost, it seems like the better option to me rather than waste development dollars on a whole new engine line. That was the original point I was trying to get across in the post. I'm not asking for a new Lightenning, I just think supercharging vrs a whole new engine family to serve a limited market of 400+ fts of torque from a gasser is rather limited. I think that when the new six speed auto arrives in the next refresh, most people will find the 5.4 to be more than adequate considering how well the Expedition moves with such a combo.

[RichardJensen]

Bear in mind the number of 5.4L Tritons Ford sells: From the Expedition, F-Series, and E-Series, Ford must move close to 400k a year.

 

Also, having a standard super charger on a truck engine does not seem like a good idea, not when this many units of a particular motor are sold.