rockyr49 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I am a field service technician for a company in Michigan. My job requires extensive travel. Nearly all of it is driving. Some of the work we do is for Ford For 15 years I drove nothing but GM vehicles. Some as many as 300,000 miles. January 0f 05 I purchased a 2003 Expedition. I loved the style and design and frankly was not happy with the last 2 GM's. The Ford had 50000 mileas on it and is costing me $663 a month. This past Wednesday, January 18 on my way from Pittsburg to Beloit, WI, I had a spark plug blow out of the engine. Luckily I was in the Chicago area. I was able to get it to a dealer in Orland Park, IL. I was informed that I would need a new head. $4500. I asked how the advisor knew that and was told that he had seen 4 of them do this. That evening I looked on the internet at consumeraffairs.com and found many complaints about this problem. It appears that the threads are not deep enough in the head. I called another Ford dealer in Albion, MI. That is where my office is and it would be more convienent to get the vehicle fixed there for me. I asked about cost and was told $3300 for the head. He knew this because he had another one on the lot with the same problem right now. After discussing it furhter with them I decided that replacing the one head may not fix the entire problem, as the other head could have a plug blow out too. I am now replacing the engine at a cost to me of almost $7000. I have talked to 3 dealers in total and have been told by all 3 that the new heads have been corrected. This indicates to me that Ford knows about this, but just doesn't want to take resonsibility for it. I realize that to recall that many vehicles would be prohibitivley expensive. But why not pay for the part for those that have the problem. It is clearly a defect that could have been catastrophic. If raw fuel had spilled from the spark plug opening onto the engine a fire could result. This is my first Ford. I buy a vehicle about every 4-5 years because of the number of miles I drive. I really want to find an American company that I can trust to be there when needed. Is Ford concerned with customer satisfaction? Is quality really job 1? I'm not so sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I am a field service technician for a company in Michigan. My job requires extensive travel. Nearly all of it is driving. Some of the work we do is for Ford For 15 years I drove nothing but GM vehicles. Some as many as 300,000 miles. January 0f 05 I purchased a 2003 Expedition. I loved the style and design and frankly was not happy with the last 2 GM's. The Ford had 50000 mileas on it and is costing me $663 a month. This past Wednesday, January 18 on my way from Pittsburg to Beloit, WI, I had a spark plug blow out of the engine. Luckily I was in the Chicago area. I was able to get it to a dealer in Orland Park, IL. I was informed that I would need a new head. $4500. I asked how the advisor knew that and was told that he had seen 4 of them do this. That evening I looked on the internet at consumeraffairs.com and found many complaints about this problem. It appears that the threads are not deep enough in the head. I called another Ford dealer in Albion, MI. That is where my office is and it would be more convienent to get the vehicle fixed there for me. I asked about cost and was told $3300 for the head. He knew this because he had another one on the lot with the same problem right now. After discussing it furhter with them I decided that replacing the one head may not fix the entire problem, as the other head could have a plug blow out too. I am now replacing the engine at a cost to me of almost $7000. I have talked to 3 dealers in total and have been told by all 3 that the new heads have been corrected. This indicates to me that Ford knows about this, but just doesn't want to take resonsibility for it. I realize that to recall that many vehicles would be prohibitivley expensive. But why not pay for the part for those that have the problem. It is clearly a defect that could have been catastrophic. If raw fuel had spilled from the spark plug opening onto the engine a fire could result.This is my first Ford. I buy a vehicle about every 4-5 years because of the number of miles I drive. I really want to find an American company that I can trust to be there when needed. Is Ford concerned with customer satisfaction? Is quality really job 1? I'm not so sure. There's a simpler solution- a rethreading kit for about $380 plus labor. Beats the socks out of a $7000 engine install. http://www.fulltorque.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 wow that sucks. were these the factory installed plugs? is overtorqing(stripping) part of the issue, for that matter how about undertorqued/loose rattling the threads out too, or is this simply a casting/machining oops? Wondering if undertorqed/ then expansion differences of steel plug/alum head are loosening them enough to rattle and work at the threads... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepfordj Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 Wow, talk about over kill. Stripped threads on spark plugs is not that uncommon, the fix is to repair the threads. Below is a link to a thread repair kit. http://www.timesert.com/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT90SC Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 NEVER NEVER NEVER use a thread insert on an aluminum automotive head. They change the effective heat range of the plug (not necessarily in a predictable manner) and can lead to further engine damage, the kind where you WILL need a lower end too. They may also move the plug into or out of the combustion chamber because of the depth changes the inserts can cause. I realize that it may appear to be a cheap fix, but to do it right the head casting must be replaced. That having been said, here are a whole lot more folks who will argue that a bubblegum and bailing wire fix is in fact ok: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kepfordj Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 NEVER NEVER NEVER use a thread insert on an aluminum automotive head. They change the effective heat range of the plug (not necessarily in a predictable manner) and can lead to further engine damage, the kind where you WILL need a lower end too. They may also move the plug into or out of the combustion chamber because of the depth changes the inserts can cause. I realize that it may appear to be a cheap fix, but to do it right the head casting must be replaced. That having been said, here are a whole lot more folks who will argue that a bubblegum and bailing wire fix is in fact ok: What's this, some more run in circles scream and shout? I've been doing this to motorcycles and more than a few cars going back to the 60's. Done right it's fix that's better than new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I dunno, but if plugs 'blowing out' was due to a thin casting that has been redesigned due to amount of problems, I dont think I'd want it repaired- probably half the cost is labor to pull the head, and then you'd need to have all 4 done to be sure another one wouldnt blow... If the ORIGINAL plugs are blowing out, I really think Ford's looking at a big problem here...if its replacement plugs blowing out, I'd think the installer would be on the hook at least partially- perhaps not using torque wrench(but then again, if castings inferior- maybe you can only torque a plug once or twice before threads start to pull out?). All I can say is I hope my 3v mustang motor wont have any similar issues...with coil-on-plug, I think its got a 100k replacement schedule... Just thinking aloud- but I see a bunch of stink on the horizon over the truck/plug blowing...wonder if Ford has gone back thru the plugs looking for problems there??? is thread pitch diameter nominal (if it was machined, it had a tolerance), perhaps a cheap import plug is part(or most) of the blame??? Wonder if a 'custom' form tap could be made to forge new threads into the stripped hole without cutting chips...then a custom plug could be used without removing head? I dunno ifyou can form tap aluminum...Ive seen us use form taps on forged parts before...castings might be too brittle...who knows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockyr49 Posted January 21, 2006 Author Share Posted January 21, 2006 Google Ford spark plug blowout and read what you find. Not an isolated case. Engines with less than 50,000 have had this problem. Factory defect? The 3 dealers that I talked to seem to say yes. Will they put that in writing so Ford has to pay for the fix? No way. I drive this thing 50k a year. All over the US. We regrind spindle tapers in milling machines. Hell we're a Ford vendor. I do work for the biggest companies in the world. Maybe I should leave copies of all the info on this I find on all of the lunch room tables. Problem is I can't wait for legal action. And who am I going to sue Ford? I'm sure I have the money for that. I have to get this thing back on the road ASAP. I'm not going to take a chance on a repair that might or might not work. I was lucky this time. Only 200 miles from home. Next time it could be 1000. The so called experts at Ford say the problem is corrected on the new heads. Rather than replacing both heads, I'm just putting in a new engine. If it happens again a mysterious fire could result :rolleyes: . Might just go back to the GM's. The bosses son's has 565,000 on it with no major reairs. I've driven 2 of them over 300,000. Just wanted to try something different. Well, it is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoomerjrt Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 (edited) Google Ford spark plug blowout and read what you find. Not an isolated case. Engines with less than 50,000 have had this problem. Factory defect? The 3 dealers that I talked to seem to say yes. Will they put that in writing so Ford has to pay for the fix? No way. I drive this thing 50k a year. All over the US. We regrind spindle tapers in milling machines. Hell we're a Ford vendor. I do work for the biggest companies in the world. Maybe I should leave copies of all the info on this I find on all of the lunch room tables. Problem is I can't wait for legal action. And who am I going to sue Ford? I'm sure I have the money for that. I have to get this thing back on the road ASAP. I'm not going to take a chance on a repair that might or might not work. I was lucky this time. Only 200 miles from home. Next time it could be 1000. The so called experts at Ford say the problem is corrected on the new heads. Rather than replacing both heads, I'm just putting in a new engine. If it happens again a mysterious fire could result :rolleyes: . Might just go back to the GM's. The bosses son's has 565,000 on it with no major reairs. I've driven 2 of them over 300,000. Just wanted to try something different. Well, it is different. Sad part of this forums is that most of you find it ok, to have this happen to a SUV. This is unexceptable!!!!! This should not even be problem in todays engines!!!! Maybe this is why Ford has to loss 30,000 on Monday, and market share continues to fall, and will continue to fall!!! Edited January 22, 2006 by zoomerjrt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 rockyr49 "January 0f 05 I purchased a 2003 Expedition" you state the vehicle has 50k miles on it, is that roughly what it had when you bought it? If so my guess is the dealership that took it in on trade or bought it at auction changed the plugs as part of the safety check in which case that dealer is the one you need to speak to. These plugs have torqe specs, no more just tighten them up. Yes the Ford 5.4L AND 6.8L V10 have blown factory plugs out. The early engines have fewer theads in the spark plug holes than the later build heads, also Motorcraft has redesigned the replacement plugs so instead of about 3/8" of thread on the plug the new design has about 5/8" of thread. Will it help, i don't know considering you can't add more theads to the head. As far as the inserts (not heli-coil) We have done 4 or 5 in the dealership i work at with NO comebacks, we just let the customer know this is not a Ford approved repair and there will be no guarentee on the job. Every customer so far said use the insert due to the price difference. I'm not 100% sure but i believe your 2003 has the newer style head which once again leads me to the problem being the tech that did the install of the plugs, if they were indeed replaced. It's easy enough to verify if the plugs are original or have been replaced. The factory plugs will have a daub of paint on each one at the top where the spring in the coil boot slips on, pull a coil or 3 and with a fflash light you'll know for sure by looking down the tube that the plug sits in. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockyr49 Posted January 22, 2006 Author Share Posted January 22, 2006 Could be the tech's fault. The problem I have is the dealer warranty is 90 days 4000 miles. I'm at almost 6000 miles. Dealer is going to say too bad. It's out of warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted January 22, 2006 Share Posted January 22, 2006 (edited) Could be the tech's fault. The problem I have is the dealer warranty is 90 days 4000 miles. I'm at almost 6000 miles. Dealer is going to say too bad. It's out of warranty. Holy crap, how did I miss the "used" part of this. Two comments: 1) We've done inserts with zero issue as well. Replacing the engine for $7K is plain nuts- I'd trade it in for a different unit first. 2) I'd really re-evaluate buying any used 50K mile 4X4 without an extended warranty. Any powertrain failure on that truck, while rare, could be stupefyingly expensive. That's as true of GM as it is Ford. Edited January 22, 2006 by PolarBear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockyr49 Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 I bought the extended warranty. Problem is I drive A LOTTTTTTT! 50k-60k a year. It has 105k on it now. I know that is a lot of miles. Really I do. This is the first Ford I have used for my job. 4 GMs. First two went 250k and 307k with no major repairs. Last 2 were problems. Not with engines, but with everything else. That's why I went with Ford this time. I thought they would be better and I like the design of the Expedition for what I do. My boss and son drive Suburbans. Anywhere from 250k to 550k on those. That's probably what I should have bought. I really wanted a Toyota Sequoia, but it would be hard to get into a GM or Ford plant in that. And we do a lot of work for them. I just want an American vehicle that will last. Is that too much to ask? Or if there is a design flaw, which this seem to be, have the manufacturer at least help with the cost of repair. Just pay the part, I'll pay the labor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I bought the extended warranty. Problem is I drive A LOTTTTTTT! 50k-60k a year. It has 105k on it now. I know that is a lot of miles. Really I do. This is the first Ford I have used for my job. 4 GMs. First two went 250k and 307k with no major repairs. Last 2 were problems. Not with engines, but with everything else. That's why I went with Ford this time. I thought they would be better and I like the design of the Expedition for what I do. My boss and son drive Suburbans. Anywhere from 250k to 550k on those. That's probably what I should have bought. I really wanted a Toyota Sequoia, but it would be hard to get into a GM or Ford plant in that. And we do a lot of work for them. I just want an American vehicle that will last. Is that too much to ask? Or if there is a design flaw, which this seem to be, have the manufacturer at least help with the cost of repair. Just pay the part, I'll pay the labor. Ironically, the Sequioa has a worse repair history, per JD Powers, than the domestic full-size SUV's. This whole thread is really confusing me. First, I thought the Expy had 50k on it, then 56K, now I'm reading 105K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockyr49 Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sorry didn't mean to be confusing. I bought 1 year ago with 50k on it. Drove it for a year. At 100800 I had it tuned up. 5000 later it blew the plug. Dealer has 4000 warranty and refuses to help. I've heard so much about the inserts good and bad that I'm a little nervous about that route. It could be the way to go. But since I don't know where I'm going to be or how many miles I'll drive in any particular week, I need to pretty sure of the fix. It's not good to be driving 1000 miles from home and worrying about every little noise. And is the insert going to hold. Or is the other head going to blow. Do I insert all 8 cylinders? If so how much time and expense is that going to be? You see where I am at? It looks like the best repair is a new engine. Sure it's $6700, but at least for the first 36k it has a warranty. Tha should get me by 7 months. I could dump it, but who's going to give me the 20,000 I owe on it? Rock and a hard place? I think so. I just posted here to vent and maybe get some idea if Ford has been helping with this at all. It doesn't seem so. So I'll just eat it and do everything I can to pay this thing off in the next year. That way if it dies again I can just get rid of it and buy something else. What I don't know. I'll cross that one when I have to. Thanks for all the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Sorry didn't mean to be confusing. I bought 1 year ago with 50k on it. Drove it for a year. At 100800 I had it tuned up. 5000 later it blew the plug. Dealer has 4000 warranty and refuses to help. I've heard so much about the inserts good and bad that I'm a little nervous about that route. It could be the way to go. But since I don't know where I'm going to be or how many miles I'll drive in any particular week, I need to pretty sure of the fix. It's not good to be driving 1000 miles from home and worrying about every little noise. And is the insert going to hold. Or is the other head going to blow. Do I insert all 8 cylinders? If so how much time and expense is that going to be? You see where I am at? It looks like the best repair is a new engine. Sure it's $6700, but at least for the first 36k it has a warranty. Tha should get me by 7 months. I could dump it, but who's going to give me the 20,000 I owe on it? Rock and a hard place? I think so. I just posted here to vent and maybe get some idea if Ford has been helping with this at all. It doesn't seem so. So I'll just eat it and do everything I can to pay this thing off in the next year. That way if it dies again I can just get rid of it and buy something else. What I don't know. I'll cross that one when I have to. Thanks for all the input. I'd do the inserts, personally- and I don't relish the idea of being stranded far from home either. Just do the plug that's blown, but have them torque the other plugs, and every 15,000 miles thereafter. That's what caused it in the first place- over the years/miles, the plugs either tighten or loosen as the heads expand/contract. Ask the dealer for a cost factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted labor Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Bottom line Ford is and has always been a numbers company, they have known for a long time that everbody is'nt going to be happy with their car! so try to ship as much crap out the door as possible and maybe just maybe the customer wont complain .you can tell this is true by the new "way forward " program . meaning they close one of their plants that has won several major awards for Quality. that dont show much but the way to the crapper. Bottom line Ford is and has always been a numbers company, they have known for a long time that everbody is'nt going to be happy with their car! so try to ship as much crap out the door as possible and maybe just maybe the customer wont complain .you can tell this is true by the new "way forward " program . meaning they close one of their plants that has won several major awards for Quality. that dont show much but the way to the crapper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenp77 Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Holy crap, how did I miss the "used" part of this. Two comments: 1) We've done inserts with zero issue as well. Replacing the engine for $7K is plain nuts- I'd trade it in for a different unit first. 2) I'd really re-evaluate buying any used 50K mile 4X4 without an extended warranty. Any powertrain failure on that truck, while rare, could be stupefyingly expensive. That's as true of GM as it is Ford. PB: Give me an honst answer if you can are you seeing as many problems on the GM trucks as the fords ie:cruise control redcalll and plug blow p roblem as I know yo sell both. Also have you got any kind of a look athe the new style chevy trucks and when will they come out?? If you can';t answer here send me your e mail and I will reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolarBear Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 PB: Give me an honst answer if you can are you seeing as many problems on the GM trucks as the fords ie:cruise control redcalll and plug blow p roblem as I know yo sell both. Also have you got any kind of a look athe the new style chevy trucks and when will they come out?? If you can';t answer here send me your e mail and I will reply. It's a two-part answer. Are Tahoes and Suburbans more reliable than '03-on Expeditions? Absolutely. (and it's a mystery as to why that is. It didn't used to be true) Are Chevy Pickups as or more reliable than their Ford counterparts? Oddly, seems to be a wash. For all I've read about issues with the F series (steering nibble, bed shake, 6.0 diesel problems) the actual shop experience has been very good, and we're in a market where a good number of these trucks get used, as opposed to just being daily drivers. Chevies quality has improved dramatically over the past few years, while Ford always was the gold standard in trucks. Today, it's a tough call to make. I personally prefer (and own) a Super Duty, but there's nothing wrong with Chevies offerings. re: new GMT900. This is going to be the most interesting year in decades for full-size pickups. The new Tahoes are out (they share this platform with the pickup), and they're significantly improved over the previous bodystyle. It's not an earthshattering change- more like an improved, refined version of what already works. I'm told the pickups will differentiate themselves more from the SUV's than in prior models- we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheri/ck Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I would be absolutely sure that you have exhausted every route with the dealer that did the spark plug change. Did you talk with the service manager? The technician that did the plug install is likely at fault here and the dealer should be willing to work with you to resolve the problem. That being said, I would go with the inserts. Unfortunately, this is not an uncommon problem and if you haven't gone to the Ford truck sites, it would make for interesting reading on the topic. There are seemingly plenty of trucks out there running with these inserts for a long time with no problem. Good luck with whatever you end up doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockyr49 Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Thanks to everyone for the input on this whole fiasco. I went with a new longblock. Supposed to be have the corrected heads. Expensive, but I'll be more confident that I can go another year or so without more repairs. Maybe instead of torqueing the plugs every 15,000, I'll Just locktite them and never change them again. Seriously though......I'll just put everything I've got into paying the beast off this year. Then if there are more problems down the road at least I can get rid of it. A tahoe is looking pretty good right now. Thanks everybody Rocky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 You don't need Locktite, i don't believe it would help a thing. If you want to check the torque on the plugs every 50K should be often enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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