MKS V8 Confirmed to Lincoln Dealers

[range]

From Autoblog

 

"This morning, Lincoln released an overview of the forthcoming MKS to dealers. There are plenty of features to discuss, but the most overwhelmingly important piece of info is this:

 

"The MKS will be powered by a 315 horsepower V8, which will put power to all four wheels via Ford's new 6-speed automatic.

 

Other features announced to dealers include:

 

-a panoramic glass VistaRoof,

-adaptive LED headlamps,

-20" wheels

-Bluetooth,

-DVD audio,

-The Lincoln Mobile Media System.

 

"The MMS uses an eight-inch LCD display to handle navigation, audio/entertainment and climate control duties. It also displays vehicle information and downloads information from channels such as the National Weather Center. "

[RichardJensen]

Ford should not need to mfr. the Yamaha V8 for the volume mix likely with the MKS & "people mover".

 

The MKS will have either the 3.7L V6 or the 4.4L V8, unlike the MKZ & MKX, it will have a choice of engines.

 

I would like the MKS to be the 'thinking man's' S-Class. All the space, all the amenities, half the price................ Not unlike a certain Japanese built luxury sedan launched about 15 years ago.

[Mark B. Morrow]

From Autoblog

 

"This morning, Lincoln released an overview of the forthcoming MKS to dealers. There are plenty of features to discuss, but the most overwhelmingly important piece of info is this:

 

"The MKS will be powered by a 315 horsepower V8, which will put power to all four wheels via Ford's new 6-speed automatic.

 

Other features announced to dealers include:

 

-a panoramic glass VistaRoof,

-adaptive LED headlamps,

-20" wheels

-Bluetooth,

-DVD audio,

-The Lincoln Mobile Media System.

 

"The MMS uses an eight-inch LCD display to handle navigation, audio/entertainment and climate control duties. It also displays vehicle information and downloads information from channels such as the National Weather Center. "

 

Sounds Great now all they have to do is build it and get it on the showroom floor.

[Hugh]

So: I read somewhere a while back that Lima was spooling up to produce the Volvo/Yamaha V8. Is this true?

 

As well, I read that the new 6F transmission was only rated at 300hp. That been said, I thought this transmission was going to a lot of other vehicles with the D35. That in itself is a large number.

 

I thought that another Lincoln flagship was in the works and this MKS was not it. I heard twin turbo D35 and that would be more then ample. Don't get me wrong, a V8 sounds great to me.

 

Good news for all those V8 lovers out there.

 

Anybody want to take this one?

 

Ford should not need to mfr. the Yamaha V8 for the volume mix likely with the MKS & "people mover".

 

The MKS will have either the 3.7L V6 or the 4.4L V8, unlike the MKZ & MKX, it will have a choice of engines.

 

I would like the MKS to be the 'thinking man's' S-Class. All the space, all the amenities, half the price................ Not unlike a certain Japanese built luxury sedan launched about 15 years ago.

That answered part of my question and I figured Ford would stay the course with the D37.

 

"Not unlike a certain..." Maybe Mualley (sp?) has put some influence in this. Trading in the "Japanese built luxury sedan" and all.

[RichardJensen]

Ford is probably going to be building only a handful of V8 MKS & D472s (say 1/3rd of maybe 50k units total). It would be far better to 1) pay Yamaha for the engine at that scale and 2) source a 6-speed from some other supplier. It would not pay to engineer a 6-speed for that volume.

 

A Continental (stretched D3) would be one heckuva car for $50k (likely entry point), but would probably sell no more than 15k units annually. That would get the Yamaha V8 as well.

 

So Ford's looking at (my rough estimate) 30k Yamaha V8s, max. I can't see the value in tooling up Lima (or another engine plant) for that kind of volume.

[Hugh]

Ford is probably going to be building only a handful of V8 MKS & D472s (say 1/3rd of maybe 50k units total). It would be far better to 1) pay Yamaha for the engine at that scale and 2) source a 6-speed from some other supplier. It would not pay to engineer a 6-speed for that volume.

 

A Continental (stretched D3) would be one heckuva car for $50k (likely entry point), but would probably sell no more than 15k units annually. That would get the Yamaha V8 as well.

 

So Ford's looking at (my rough estimate) 30k Yamaha V8s, max. I can't see the value in tooling up Lima (or another engine plant) for that kind of volume.

1. D472: Is that the flagship designation?

2. I refer to the Ford/GM 6F collaberation. So if there is not enough of those, will Ford get more Aisin (improved with manu-shift hopefully) 6F's?

3. I read in Autoweek last year or early 2006 that Lima was scheduled to start a line for this V8 and supply to everyone under the Ford umbrella who wants it. Not just exclusively for Lincoln. That been said, so far it would just be Volvo and Lincoln.

[RichardJensen]

1. D472: Is that the flagship designation?

2. I refer to the Ford/GM 6F collaberation. So if there is not enough of those, will Ford get more Aisin (improved with manu-shift hopefully) 6F's?

3. I read in Autoweek last year or early 2006 that Lima was scheduled to start a line for this V8 and supply to everyone under the Ford umbrella who wants it. Not just exclusively for Lincoln. That been said, so far it would just be Volvo and Lincoln.

1) D472 is the 'Lincoln Fairlane'

2) Ford may not necessarily get more Aisins. Also, I believe that 'manu-shift' is in the PCM, not in the transmission itself. The transmission, I would assume, is a 'black box' type unit that shifts when it's told to shift by the PCM, therefore the PCM would have the manu-shift programming, not the Aisin box--but that's just an assumption about how electronically controlled transmissions work.

3) That may have been the speculation with Lima. If so, It may have made more sense for Ford to pay Yamaha to add the capacity, but I have no idea what's going on there.

[Mark B. Morrow]

Ford should not need to mfr. the Yamaha V8 for the volume mix likely with the MKS & "people mover".

 

The MKS will have either the 3.7L V6 or the 4.4L V8, unlike the MKZ & MKX, it will have a choice of engines.

 

I would like the MKS to be the 'thinking man's' S-Class. All the space, all the amenities, half the price................ Not unlike a certain Japanese built luxury sedan launched about 15 years ago.

 

I got behind an old Lexus LS400 this morning and was struck by the unabashed copying of the same era Mercedes Benz. The shape of the rear fenders, trunk, backlight and tail lights. There wasn't an original line on it. If my memory serves the Lexus was less expensive than the Benz. After Lexus was able to provide an exemplary dealer experience and build quality they convinced the public that they were a credible alternative to the Three Pointed Star. Maybe it is a lesson for the Four Pointed Star.

[RichardJensen]

If my memory serves the Lexus was less expensive than the Benz.

I think it was $20-30k less expensive. It was a hekuva deal when it came out.

[swenson88]

Does Aisin even have a FWD/AWD tranny/transaxle that could handle the torque of a V8? All of Toyota/Lexus vehicles with V8's are RWD biased, not FWD. Since the MKS is loosely based on Volvo architecture, wouldn't a Volvo unit be much more likely, given the XC90 already has this engine?

 

PS - I for one would like to see more than 315hp when it comes out, that number is barely higher than the competition's V6's these days, especially in the luxury class this vehicle would compete in.

Edited November 8, 2006 by swenson88

[waymondospiff]

Back to V8-power for the MKS. Since Ford canned the idea of license-building the Yamaha V8 in the US, why doesn't Ford just agree to buy a small number of V8s from Yamaha? Say, 10,000 units/year. It will give the MKS a V8 engine but the volume would be very low. Lincoln could charge an arm-and-a-leg for its "halo" MKS V8 to justify the procurement cost from Yamaha while giving the MKS V6 more credibility. Seems like a low (development) cost way to add V8 power to the MKS and it gives the entire MKS lineup the desireable "V8 halo."

 

Well, I must say I feel vindicated with my above statement, made today at 2:50pm in the MKS forum.

 

I'm thinking Yamaha has more power to find in the 4.4L - maybe something around 340 horsepower or so. It definetely won't be a powerhouse, but if it's main competition is the traditional luxury vehicles like S80 (315hp, same engine), DTS (292hp, 4-speed auto), & 300C (340hp Hemi), then a Yamaha-powered MKS is competitive. The Germans will be more powerful, but also much more expensive.

 

This is a very good move for the MKS. An American luxury sedan without a V8? I don't think so!

 

Scott

[Hugh]

Does Aisin even have a FWD/AWD tranny/transaxle that could handle the torque of a V8? All of Toyota/Lexus vehicles with V8's are RWD biased, not FWD. Since the MKS is loosely based on Volvo architecture, wouldn't a Volvo unit be much more likely, given the XC90 already has this engine?

 

PS - I for one would like to see more than 315hp when it comes out, that number is barely higher than the competition's V6's these days, especially in the luxury class this vehicle would compete in.

I once went to the Aisin site and they have transmissions both F and R types. They can do the job I assume (stress that). As for a Volvo unit, I believe (stress that as well) they farmed that out as well kind of like the one in the triplets which is a Aisin unit for example.

 

Thanks Richard for the transmission brief. I remember this been discussed on a earlier thread and having the ability to "upgrade" through the PCM sounds doable.

 

I agree with you swenson88 that 315hp doesn't seem competitive. How does the S80 V8 AWD do with it's setup? Does it run on 87 octane (this seems to be a big selling point these days)? Can it be improved as well?

[jasonj80]

I think it was $20-30k less expensive. It was a hekuva deal when it came out.

 

It still is for what you get. The Lexus invoices for $53,000 the S-class benz invoice is $81,000. You do have to add a few option packages to the Lexus to get ot the Equipement level as the benz -- but even then your only in the mid 50's.

[range]

What this info (a V8 going in the MKS) means (if true) is that the media and automotive pundits are a bunch or losers who don't bother researching information.

 

The media and pundits took information about a V8 engine production line in Ohio not being funded and assumed it meant no V8 for the MKS. Remember all the whining and complaing from the auto mags and the likes of Jerry Flint?

 

What appears more likely is that Ford decided to use it's exisiting global supplier chain to deliver the V8, using an assembly line all ready producing these engines, rather than reinvent a redundant assembly line.

[pcsario]

UPDATE

 

"Commenter Jon (#23) weighs in with the following: " I work at a dealer. The info on the MKS Ford sent us online is all dated March/April 2006. I assumed it was old info, and wondered why it was sent out..." So now the question is this: Was there really a change of heart, where the V8 will be offered? Or is this all a big misunderstanding because of stale info being communicated on the dealer web site? If that's the case, it's very discouraging."

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/07/lincoln...a-v8-after-all/

[waymondospiff]

Well, forget what I said about being right.

 

UPDATE 2 - We have received word from Ford that this was indeed a case where old materials were republished. There was no change of heart, and the V8 won't be behind that stylish grille. This is disappointing, and I must offer my apologies for the confusion. -AN

 

This from over at autoblog.com

 

I still think the MKS needs a V8 halo vehicle for proper success. Buy it from Yamaha, charge an-arm-and-a-leg for the V8 model and aim to sell between 5-10,000/year. It gives the MKS a proper, V8-powered model for brand image, glossy brochures, & magazine comparison tests that will drive sales of the volume-selling V6 model.

 

Yes, V6s are more efficient, better selling, and nearly as powerful. Yes, a twin-turbo V6 would probably offer more power than a Yamaha-sourced V8. Yes, Yamaha's engines are expensive and not nearly as "easy" as a Ford V6. But none of this matters. An American luxury sedan without a V8? It doesn't make sense. Even at low-volume, a V8 halo model is a "must have" for the MKS to succeed.

 

I'd love to read Ford's business case for the MKS. I can't imagine what projections they're using to justify production of this vehicle. It seems like a case of "rolling yeses" - where one yes leads to another yes which leads to another yes and so on...until what you've finally agreed with has nothing to do with what started it all.

 

Oi vey.

 

Scott

[old_fairmont_wagon]

In the end, cramming a V8 under the hood of a MKS is going to require a decent amount of engineering. Not a trivial thing, especially as cash strapped as Ford is. I'm expecting the MKS to have the two varieties of v6 for the first two to three model years. Ford will be monitoring the sales numbers and their competition (including the S80, which will have the v8 as an option) and make a decision about mid-lifing the v8 in. By that time, they'll have a better understanding about the volume in the sector in the US and their own success.

 

So, Ford will have a marketing challenge on their hands. They need to prove to a probably sceptical buying public that the MKS handles like a sedan of its size and power should. They need to prove that their Twin Turbo D35 has torque and horsepower like a V8 with NO turbo lag. They need to prove that the interior of a flagship (which, until a true flagship emerges) sedan in Lincoln is another order of magnitude above the MKZ interior. They need to prove that the vehicle will be reliable and retain its value.

 

ITs all possible. But, given the release timeframe for this vehicle 2008/2009, the engine is going to need to produce around 400hp and have torque above 350 lbs. That's a tall order for a production 3.5L v6 from a domestic that, frankly, has almost no experience turboing OHC v6s.

 

Why try to leap so many hurdles at once?

[Blue II]

I'm suprised at this. Ford did not want to purchase engines from Yamaha or license them for manufacture because it was too costly. The last talks that were going on had Ford buying the engine outright and building it here in the US. Those talks broke off.

 

There is a lead group working on the 3.5 TT GDI for the MKS. The GDI technology will be applied to other engines such as BOSS.

 

The Yamaha is not GDI capable in it's current form and would require significant reengineering. It's going to be interesting to see how this story turns out.

[mettech]

I thought the 4.4L Yamaha engine was dead, and Ford was making a new 5.0L for Lincoln.

[Biker16]

Ford should not need to mfr. the Yamaha V8 for the volume mix likely with the MKS & "people mover".

 

The MKS will have either the 3.7L V6 or the 4.4L V8, unlike the MKZ & MKX, it will have a choice of engines.

 

I would like the MKS to be the 'thinking man's' S-Class. All the space, all the amenities, half the price................ Not unlike a certain Japanese built luxury sedan launched about 15 years ago.

except that Car the LS400, was actually on par machanically with it's competition,

 

V8 rwd, and best in class, NVH.

 

I have yet to see a ford product out do the japanese or germans in luxury gadgetry. I rememebr the Air suspension in the Mark VIII and how today I see those cars scraping the pavement because like the continental before it, the Air supension fails.

 

Iwant Lincoln to succeed, but doing it on the cheap, like thay are, will not turn the brand around.

[ZanatWork]

Lincoln is saddled with one restrictive element: reality.

 

Cash-strapped as Ford is getting to be, they can't afford to "clean sheet" the entire Lincoln lineup for world-class rwd monsters even if the Bill-Bill-Mark collective wanted to. They need to utilize the resources they have to improve existing architectures while keeping the R&D money flowing for better future offerings.

 

The MKS, which is also supposed to have rear-biased awd, looks to be a very solid and logical offering. This is a whole series of steps better than the Fairmont-in-snob's-clothing Mark VII or the T-Bird-with-air-suspension Mark VIII. While the VII was pretty cool to look at while being primative, and the Mark VIII was a great car but with "Buick" styling (not a compliment).

 

The MKS may very well deliver the whole package...something Lincoln is not great at lately. Am I among those who wish for a killer rwd Continental or similar halo car? Absolutely...but until that gets here, the MKS will be Lincoln's big deal. Here's to hoping they get it right.

[waymondospiff]

So, Ford will have a marketing challenge on their hands. They need to prove to a probably sceptical buying public that the MKS handles like a sedan of its size and power should. They need to prove that their Twin Turbo D35 has torque and horsepower like a V8 with NO turbo lag. They need to prove that the interior of a flagship (which, until a true flagship emerges) sedan in Lincoln is another order of magnitude above the MKZ interior. They need to prove that the vehicle will be reliable and retain its value.

 

ITs all possible. But, given the release timeframe for this vehicle 2008/2009, the engine is going to need to produce around 400hp and have torque above 350 lbs. That's a tall order for a production 3.5L v6 from a domestic that, frankly, has almost no experience turboing OHC v6s.

 

Why try to leap so many hurdles at once?

I very much agree with your statements. The question of why so much all at one - makes no sense!

 

If the mid-luxury market likes V8s, and evidence says they like V8s even if they don't buy them, then why try to market a vehicle and tell people they *don't* need a V8.

 

This would be understandable if Ford didn't have a V8 that would work in the MKS. But they do - courtesy of Yamaha. Yes it'll be expensive. But it'll be a whole lot cheaper than either 1. having lots full of unsold V6-only MKSes and 2. trying to convince buyers that what they want isn't what they need.

 

Scott

[NickF1011]

I very much agree with your statements. The question of why so much all at one - makes no sense!

 

If the mid-luxury market likes V8s, and evidence says they like V8s even if they don't buy them, then why try to market a vehicle and tell people they *don't* need a V8.

 

This would be understandable if Ford didn't have a V8 that would work in the MKS. But they do - courtesy of Yamaha. Yes it'll be expensive. But it'll be a whole lot cheaper than either 1. having lots full of unsold V6-only MKSes and 2. trying to convince buyers that what they want isn't what they need.

 

Scott

 

When the press will bash Ford for sticking an unpowered 305-315 horsepower V8 into the car, why should they bother if a TT V6 can make considerably more horsepower AND torque? The logistics of doing the TT D35 makes more sense as well. As far as from an engineering standpoint, Ford has plenty of experience using turbos in Europe. It's not like Ford's powertrain group would be looking at the turbine and going "Durrr, gee Earl, what do ya think this thar thing does?"

[Hemiman]

Ford is probably going to be building only a handful of V8 MKS & D472s (say 1/3rd of maybe 50k units total).

 

1/3rd of 50K units? I thought this low number was the reason the LS (the best car ever made in NA) was canned. Oh yeah, it was the extreme cost of the platform...Not!

[ZanatWork]

Supposedly, the V8 info was outdated, and now the car will only offer V6s initially.

 

Saw that over at MT.