V8-X Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I voted abuse. Sure it's built for off-road, but there are limits. Too bad people are exceeding the limits of even this truck. And these comments on the Tundra site are laughable. http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2011/07/05/f-150-raptor-frame-bending-defect/ http://www.raptorforumz.com/showthread.php?t=14208 So if I bought a new 5.0 Stang, raced it and blew the motor, Ford should replace it under warranty? Yeah, didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I voted abuse. Sure it's built for off-road, but there are limits. Too bad people are exceeding the limits of even this truck. And these comments on the Tundra site are laughable. http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2011/07/05/f-150-raptor-frame-bending-defect/ http://www.raptorforumz.com/showthread.php?t=14208 So if I bought a new 5.0 Stang, raced it and blew the motor, Ford should replace it under warranty? Yeah, didn't think so. Sure, it is extreme abuse. But, I am having a hard time visualizing exactly what is going on. I have seen that type of a bend on trucks that towed trailers with too much tounge weight, but I can't say I have seen that type of damage on off-road trucks often. I wonder exactly what they are doing to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) Interesting find. That Tundra HQ article is quite informative. I didn't realize that Chrysler offers an "off-road use warranty policy" for its Raptor competitor, as noted in this sentence: Jeeps Rubicon a similar vehicle in terms of advertised off-road ability has an excellent off-road use warranty policy, and Rubicon owners are generally very happy with the coverage they receive. If this statement is indeed true, and Jeep Rubicons do not exhibit the type of damage from off-road use that some Ford Raptor trucks have incurred, then I vote 'Design Flaw'. Edited July 12, 2011 by aneekr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Interesting find. That Tundra HQ article is quite informative. I didn't realize that Chrysler offers an "off-road use warranty policy" for its Raptor competitor, as noted in this sentence: If this statement is indeed true, and Jeep Rubicons do not exhibit the type of damage from off-road use that some Ford Raptor trucks have incurred, then I vote 'Design Flaw'. There is no 'Raptor competitor'! You can't compare a Jeep Rubicon to a Raptor other than the fact that they are both built to go off-road. The Raptor is designed for high-speed running whereas the Jeep is more for rock-crawling and other "slow" off-roading. Obviously, more sh*t happens at the high rate of speed Raptors are subjected to... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 and Jeep Rubicons do not exhibit the type of damage from off-road use that some Ford Raptor trucks have incurred, then I vote 'Design Flaw'. Um, maybe. Can a stock Jeep Rubicon get up to the kind of speeds the Raptor can do? You go gung-ho airborne big-time with something that heavy, then maybe it's roll-cage re-enforcement time. Speed is energy, and maybe the Rubicon never has to contend with the loads. Perhaps Ford will offer a re-enforcement up-grade that can be dealer-installed, for gung-ho off-roaders. I can't wait to see a video of what it takes to bend a Raptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Interesting find. That Tundra HQ article is quite informative. I didn't realize that Chrysler offers an "off-road use warranty policy" for its Raptor competitor, as noted in this sentence: If this statement is indeed true, and Jeep Rubicons do not exhibit the type of damage from off-road use that some Ford Raptor trucks have incurred, then I vote 'Design Flaw'. The guys who bent their frames were driving a desert track at extremely high speed (upwards of 125mph). That's much faster over rough ground than the raptor was designed to do (70-ish). They basically hammered the frame via the rear axle repeatedly slamming the bumpstops. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 If this statement is indeed true, and Jeep Rubicons do not exhibit the type of damage from off-road use that some Ford Raptor trucks have incurred, then I vote 'Design Flaw'. From what I've seen and understand, the Rubicons off-road warranty policy is in reference more to rock crawling type off-road conditions. Not taking an 18" or more kicker are speeds in excess of 55+ mph. Also, there are plenty of forum reports on the net stating the owner was denied warranty work because the damage was determined to be "abuse." So great, the Rubicon offers and off-road warranty (still attempting to find details). But if they offer this warranty and still deny claims because of abuse, where is it any better than the warranty you get with the Raptor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) From what I've seen and understand, the Rubicons off-road warranty policy is in reference more to rock crawling type off-road conditions. Not taking an 18" or more kicker are speeds in excess of 55+ mph. Also, there are plenty of forum reports on the net stating the owner was denied warranty work because the damage was determined to be "abuse." So great, the Rubicon offers and off-road warranty (still attempting to find details). But if they offer this warranty and still deny claims because of abuse, where is it any better than the warranty you get with the Raptor? Here's the video -- If they would have totaled the truck doing this their insurance company wouldn't cover the damage. They were over driving these trucks - everything has a breaking point. Also the truck kicks out at 100mph, unless you have the limiter removed though with the 6.2L there is plenty left to go even at 100mph when you hit the limiter so I could see hitting 125 if you had it removed. Edited July 12, 2011 by jasonj80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Here's the video -- If they would have totaled the truck doing this their insurance company wouldn't cover the damage. They were over driving these trucks - everything has a breaking point. Also the truck kicks out at 100mph, unless you have the limiter removed though with the 6.2L there is plenty left to go even at 100mph when you hit the limiter so I could see hitting 125 if you had it removed. Too bad we can't see the speedometer, but I'm pretty sure I don't drive that fast on the highway... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) The problem I see is, hitting the kicker at those speeds didn't allow the shocks to properly/fully absorb the impact that the rear made, especially if the shocks were extremely hot. Where as when the truck actually jumps, as displayed in the marketing material, the shocks become fully extended and provide plenty of travel before the bump stops. Edited July 12, 2011 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 especially if the shocks were extremely hot. Bingo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I vote idiocy. And I'm *sure* you're not hearing the whole story on this. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if dealer techs found that the PCM had been tampered with, thus voiding the whole furshlugginer warranty 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I vote idiocy. And I'm *sure* you're not hearing the whole story on this. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if dealer techs found that the PCM had been tampered with, thus voiding the whole furshlugginer warranty the black box will tell the story....my take, they wont be covered by warranty.....its amazing the info that box can share...speed, throttle opening, temperatures....you name it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 the black box will tell the story....my take, they wont be covered by warranty.....its amazing the info that box can share...speed, throttle opening, temperatures....you name it.... Ford had an engineer look at the truck, and determined it was "excessive" abuse and denied the claim. Ford did provide the owner a great deal, only $750 to straighten the frame. Is it a problem? Sure, a point for Ford and SVT to look into strengthening, but is Ford at fault? Not in the least. I'm on page 25 or so of the 48 page thread. Most people are whining, but there are many logical owners and posters that know, there are limits to any vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Ford did provide the owner a great deal, only $750 to straighten the frame. That's a helluva deal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 That's a helluva deal! Considering that damage basically totals the vehicle, yep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I see where the problem is. The axle is hitting the bump stops so hard it is buckling the frame rails above the axle. I was thinking the frame was bending behind the cab. The claim is that the frame is not fully boxed around the place where the bump stop mounts, that there is a large opening on the inside to access the stop mounting screws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Here's a good explanation. Can't say how 100% accurate it is, but makes plenty of sense. Originally Posted by Bad Company Guys, I own a Raptor, and I am a mechanical engineer who used to design shock isolation systems for shipborne electronics. I do not know the deisgn specifics for the raptor suspension (spring rates, damping rates, exact distributed weights etc.) but I am guessing that hitting an 18" ridge at high speed is one of the most punishing things that can be done to your suspension for the following reasons: 1. Your suspension at rest can only absorb about 6" of deflection before the rear axle hits the steel frame (bump stop totally flattened). the rest of your suspension is "droop", meaning that when you jump the tires move down at least 6" relative to your truck. 2. Moving at high speed means that the suspension does not have time to accelerate your truck up. Basically the tires MUST move up RIGHT NOW, but the bed of your truck does not (unlike say, a gradual ramp). 3. A short ridge (like a big speed bump) moves the tires upwards very quickly; coupled with high speed, and already partially compressed suspension means HUGE forces between the axle and frame when the two crash together. I suspect that hitting a ridge at high speed is MUCH worse than jumping your trucks (where the suspension can extend to absorb the landing better). It is also worse than short gullies where again the suspension can extend and then absorb the impact. Overheated shocks and loads in the bed will only make the problem worse. I'm not making a statement about whether this is abuse or not. But this kind of treatment will cause metal to bend. I know this is the last thing you want to hear, but you may want to slow down for ridges in future. Here are the variables to consider: - Higher tire pressure [worse] (until you cut the tire with your rim) as the tires "give" less - Higher speed [worse] (increases speed at which the tire moves upward, and reduces time for suspension to move truck up and regain suspension clearance) - Taller bump [worse] (anything greator than 6" of hard pack or so could be a problem at very high speeds) - Harder pack [worse] (loose sand or snow- no problem) hard packed clay or concrete = bad) loose ground will be "cut" by your tires and the suspension will not move much. - Loaded truck [worse] mass in your bed will directly impact the "hit", also it reduces the amount of suspension travel left by compressing the springs more. - "Abrupt" bump worse - reduces time for suspension to recover Because of the masses involved, and the accelerations, I doubt any quick fixes will work. I'm betting the loads are VERY HIGH. I'll run some numbers when I get a bit more time. After giving this some thought, I doubt ANY current production truck would survive that reatment without damage (60MPH, 18" high, "kicker" ridge as hinted at in earlier posts). I also doubt that it is a defect in design or manufacture. Ok, I ran some numbers, and they are eye opening. Assumptions: The "kicker" or "dirt speed bump" is one Raptor tire diameter accross, and is shaped like two ramps joined together (like a flattened triangle). Case #1: Kicker height is 18" (flattened to 12" by your tires) Truck speed is 60MPH (88 fps) The bottom of the tire has to move up 12" in .0166 seconds. this is an average speed of 60.24 ft/s To generate this suspension speed, the truck would have to free fall 56 FEET!!!!! That's an impressive number, but what does it mean? It means that the truck is recieving an impact equavalent to the first 12" of a 56 FOOT DROP WITH THE SUSPENSION ALREADY HALF COMPRESSED! My best guess is that the suspension acounts for about 6" of that, the tires for maybe another 3-4", the axle for some fraction of an inch, the truck vertical motion for another small fraction of an inch (no time to respond), and the rest? It all goes into deforming the frame by 1"-2". This also tells me that even if the frame were boxed in that area, or if it was 3 times thicker, it would still bend. Even if the frame was reinfored enough to hold, the next likely point of failure is the axle, which would bend, stranding you. Case #2: Kicker Height is 12" (flattened to 9" by the tires) Truck speed is 45 MPH (66ft/s) The bottom of the tire has to move up 9" in .0221 seconds, an average speed of 33.94 ft/s vertical. To generate this suspension speed, the truck would have to free fall about 18 feet! This is a MUCH less severe impact! More importantly, the impact is only 9" long (insert obvious joke here). Additionally the truck may be able to absorb it without requiring metal to deform. The suspension can absorb 6", the tires their 3", the axle a tiny bit, the truck can move upwards a bit more, and all you probably have is tortured bump stops. So those of you who have jumped their Raptors (and the most vertical air I've seen is maybe 8-9 feet) and said they don't have bent frames? This is because hitting an 18" kicker at 60MPH is about 7 TIMES as severe. PLUS your suspension is fully extended when you jump, cushioning the fall better, unlike the speed bump example. Conclusion? If you hit something like a speed bump or "kicker" taller than your available suspension travel, plus tire "squash", at HIGH speed, you will bend metal. The ONLY way to adress this issue is increase suspension travel to be greator than the intended acceptable "bump". Or god forbid (*sniff), slow down. Reinforcing the frame will either fail to work (bend anyway), or cause something else to fail (like the axle). Nobody designs trucks to withstand those forces (like the first foot of a 56 foot drop with already compressed suspension), that would be incredibly impractical (and they'd sell one a year at $300k). I do not believe there is a design flaw, I believe that somebody found a situation that exceeds its strength. I would love to join in the next Raptor Run, jumps are fine, short gullies are fine, just look out for the big kickers when you are burnin' up the dirt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) I am by no means a engineer, but I was thinking also, if you made the frame stronger in that area, what would be the next thing to break. Without making the suspension taller, the bumpers would still hit and something would have to give. Plus, these are street trucks. Yes they are designed for medium duty off roading. But they are not Baja race trucks. People wouldn't want one if it drove like a Baja truck on the street. I do think Ford should advise the customers of the limitations of these trucks. I would love to see vertical view of these jumps that bend frames. When I was at SEMA in Vegas last year, Ford was jumping Raptors all day without bending frames. Edited July 12, 2011 by fordtech1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Plus, these are street trucks. Yes they are designed for medium duty off roading. But they are not Baja race trucks. People wouldn't want one if it drove like a Baja truck on the street. Well Ford did run a slightly modifed Raptor in the Baja, the biggest difference was fitting shocks with more travel and safety concerns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 The run in question was the Outlaw Raptor Run. In addition to the vid that was already posted, here's 2 more from that run. So, you tell me if Ford is at fault here.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJAKpGihdAA At the 1:55 mark...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuuUSUmwP8&NR=1 credit: SoComech on pickuptrucks.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 At the 1:55 mark...... Good heavens! Who does that to a new, $40k truck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT_MAN Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) LOL. Looks like one of them already took down the video. Probably worried about incriminating evidence at this point. What a joke. If you play hard, expect to break stuff. I understand they're upset that they are out money when they've paid so much for a truck. That sucks. But still, how is this Ford's fault? It isn't like Ford was telling people to take these things trophy racing bone stock ... People are saying the Marketing material is encouraging them to do this with their vehicle. Uh, really? Did they not read that disclaimer at the beginning of the video? Know your equipment. Know the terrain. Did they know either of these? If they did, they didn't respect it ... Edited July 13, 2011 by SVT_MAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydro Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) I say everything ( fast speeds on wash roads with some hits) before hitting the big whoops is fine . When the drivers have shitty navigators or just plain stupid is when the problems occur. He said it himself ...."was just going way too fast" and " I didn't take the warning serious". Not Ford's fault. A proper navigator would know where the dangerous hits are and slow the driver down. These guys are just running bat shit wild out there without a clue. Even full blown sponsored trophy trucks whould have taken a beating with those hits. Opened up youtube and saw this comment from the owner.."the frame got a little twisted and the skid plate got pushed way back... Truck run's fine. Broke a seatbelt as well..." Edited July 13, 2011 by Hydro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) the Chief Engineer at SVT talks about the durability testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf0hgA78vRY at the 2:45 mark, they give a warning that eventhough it is one tough truck, you can still break this truck if you use it irresponsibly. You need to be smart. Edited July 13, 2011 by Bryan1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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