[TomServo92]

Link

[ice-capades]

TomServo92, on Oct 16 2009, 01:51 PM, said:

Link

Not surprising considering the rate that our Dealership is selling the 2010 Fusion Hybrid. The Escape Hybrid sells well for us but the new Fusion Hybrid has been a hit since introduction!

[mustang_sallad]

Ya its funny, over the past few years, I've seen WAY more Escapes than Civics and Insights. Maybe its a Canada thing. It's only gonna get even stronger for Ford with the Fusion taking off and the Insight receiving pretty lacklustre reviews.

[move4ward]

Meanwhile, GM senior management is trying to figure out why Feds want it to make affordable decent hybrid vehicles, when it has a $50k Chevy Volt coming soon. :finger: :hysterical:

Ford blows by GM with a lineup of vehicles from a hybrid sedan to hybrid SUVs.

This post has been edited by move4ward: 17 October 2009 - 05:32 PM

[Reigner92]

Way to go Ford!!! If Ford can beat out Honda in this, i believe their stock price will go up. It will also shed some more good light on the blue oval.

This post has been edited by Reigner92: 17 October 2009 - 10:21 PM

[nelsonlu]

move4ward, on Oct 17 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Meanwhile, GM senior management is trying to figure out why Feds want it to make affordable decent hybrid vehicles, when it has a $50k Chevy Volt coming soon. :finger: :hysterical:

Ford blows by GM with a lineup of vehicles from a hybrid sedan to hybrid SUVs.

Actually, GM has made some affordable decent hybrid vehicles.

The problem is that in this market, "decent" isn't good enough. That's why the Honda Accord Hybrid didn't sell either. (Not that that vehicle was that affordable.)

[MY93SHO]

nelsonlu, on Oct 18 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

Actually, GM has made some affordable decent hybrid vehicles.

The problem is that in this market, "decent" isn't good enough. That's why the Honda Accord Hybrid didn't sell either. (Not that that vehicle was that affordable.)

I don't know if decent is the right word. The Malibu mild hybrid only got 1mpg better than the 4cyl/6 speed.

When you're offering vanilla ice milk and everyone wants chocolate with sprinkles you're doing it wrong.

[mustang_sallad]

move4ward, on Oct 17 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

Meanwhile, GM senior management is trying to figure out why Feds want it to make affordable decent hybrid vehicles, when it has a $50k Chevy Volt coming soon. :finger: :hysterical:

Ford blows by GM with a lineup of vehicles from a hybrid sedan to hybrid SUVs.

As much of a Ford fan boy as I am, i gotta admit GM's doing a good job with the Volt. That's the next step, and you can already see Ford heading in that direction with the plug-in Escape. GM's just largely skipping over the regular hybrid stuff, going straight for where the money will be at in 5 years or so, and they're way ahead of the game. It'll just be a few years before that starts paying off.

[rmc523]

mustang_sallad, on Oct 18 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

As much of a Ford fan boy as I am, i gotta admit GM's doing a good job with the Volt. That's the next step, and you can already see Ford heading in that direction with the plug-in Escape. GM's just largely skipping over the regular hybrid stuff, going straight for where the money will be at in 5 years or so, and they're way ahead of the game. It'll just be a few years before that starts paying off.

Yeah, but the thing has to get here first, and it's $40,000+ price tag isn't gonna help...

[JETSOLVER]

"Yeah, but the thing has to get here first, and it's $40,000+ price tag isn't gonna help... "

Without taking a stand; a progress report...

Volt fansite report

[Deanh]

mustang_sallad, on Oct 18 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

As much of a Ford fan boy as I am, i gotta admit GM's doing a good job with the Volt. That's the next step, and you can already see Ford heading in that direction with the plug-in Escape. GM's just largely skipping over the regular hybrid stuff, going straight for where the money will be at in 5 years or so, and they're way ahead of the game. It'll just be a few years before that starts paying off.

dont agreee in the slightest...by the time the volt gets here iit will be in line for a body style change, and actually WHAT is the market for a 40k SMALL car, REGARDLESS of its potential....one word springs to mind FAIL!

[ANTAUS]

I have similar view. I heard for years "Oh the Camaro ios coming", by the time it has arrived, I think it looked dated and I'm tired of it. The Volt was the cookie to appease the feds into getting bailed out. I too am tired just looking at it.

[move4ward]

If they were going to make a $40k electric vehicle, I think they should have started with an SUV. It would have only a $6-7k price premium over the Ford Escape Hybrid. As a sedan, it has a steeper $12-14k price premium vs other hybrid sedans. That's twice as much.

[aggoodin]

mustang_sallad, on Oct 18 2009, 11:48 AM, said:

As much of a Ford fan boy as I am, i gotta admit GM's doing a good job with the Volt. That's the next step, and you can already see Ford heading in that direction with the plug-in Escape. GM's just largely skipping over the regular hybrid stuff, going straight for where the money will be at in 5 years or so, and they're way ahead of the game. It'll just be a few years before that starts paying off.

GM didn't skip the regular hybrid. They did their usual half-assed effort with the mild-hybrids, I think the Malibu was 2mpg better as a hybrid.

[aggoodin]

move4ward, on Oct 19 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

If they were going to make a $40k electric vehicle, I think they should have started with an SUV. It would have only a $6-7k price premium over the Ford Escape Hybrid. As a sedan, it has a steeper $12-14k price premium vs other hybrid sedans. That's twice as much.

This is true, people have no problem sticking 40k+ into a Tahoe or Suburban, GM would just have to stomach making just a profit, instead of an obscene profit.

[nelsonlu]

move4ward, on Oct 19 2009, 08:51 PM, said:

If they were going to make a $40k electric vehicle, I think they should have started with an SUV. It would have only a $6-7k price premium over the Ford Escape Hybrid. As a sedan, it has a steeper $12-14k price premium vs other hybrid sedans. That's twice as much.

But there is a $7.5K tax credit (and by the time that the Volt comes out, not only would the credit be entirely gone for Ford in additional to Toyota and Honda, but the entire hybrid tax credit will be about to sunset even for manufacturers that did not sell anywhere close to the numerical limit). And I am not sure that the scaling works, at least yet, for the Voltec architecture. Note how the first Cadillac application for the Voltec is going to be the Volt-sized Cadillac Converj, not anything like the Escalade.

In any case, I am not sure I agree with you that SUV is the right application in the instance in any case. Certainly I don't think GM's technology for the Yukon/Escalade Hybrids is particularly poor. But they didn't sell because 1) they don't actually make the Yukon/Escalade into fuel-efficient vehicles, just not complete gas guzzlers and 2) they create other sacrifices that sedan/hatchback drivers may be willing to live with, but not most SUV drivers. The Voltec architecture, even if applicable to SUVs, would have an even bigger issue there. A hypothetical Voltec version of the Escalade will be easily whipped by a plug-in Escape Hybrid in fuel efficiency, even if the Escape Hybrid's technology is, supposedly, technically inferior.

[mustang_sallad]

Deanh, on Oct 19 2009, 06:02 PM, said:

dont agreee in the slightest...by the time the volt gets here iit will be in line for a body style change, and actually WHAT is the market for a 40k SMALL car, REGARDLESS of its potential....one word springs to mind FAIL!

Okay we'll see if they pull off their execution of this first shot at an ER-EV, but I think they've got a bulls eye with the basic powertrain design. Ford and Toyota are working on plug-in hybrids, but they don't offer true gas-free driving unless you're gentle on the throttle and keep it below about 45mph. I think series hybrid is where it's at (i've been working on plug-in series hybrids since a few months before GM first announced the Volt back in 2007, so I've always agreed with their thinking).

ANTAUS, on Oct 19 2009, 08:18 PM, said:

I have similar view. I heard for years "Oh the Camaro ios coming", by the time it has arrived, I think it looked dated and I'm tired of it. The Volt was the cookie to appease the feds into getting bailed out. I too am tired just looking at it.

Hasn't the Camaro handily outsold the mustang for the past 3 months or so? Maybe the small minority of enthusiasts who spend a significant amount of time looking at cars on the internet get tired of these things pretty early, but the fact is I still haven't seen many Camaros on the road yet. I don't think people are necessarily gonna start getting tired of the Volt design before they ever see one on the road.

aggoodin, on Oct 19 2009, 09:22 PM, said:

GM didn't skip the regular hybrid. They did their usual half-assed effort with the mild-hybrids, I think the Malibu was 2mpg better as a hybrid.

That's why I said "largely skipped" the regular hybrid. In fact, they did a lot more than just the Malibu mild hybrid, they do have a number of models running full blown hybrid drive trains, all their two-mode hybrid trucks and SUVs. But ya, not very significant.


All this being said, I think Ford's doing an awesome job with their excellent product, available at a decent price right now as we speak. The Fusion hybrid is a homerun, and the Escape fills an excellent part of the market. I saw a plug-in hybrid Escape two weeks ago at the PHEV 09 Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle conference in Montreal. GM had a semi-functional Volt show car on display, while Ford had Hydro Quebec's fully functional, and evidently used PHEV Escape. The Escape had just competed in an energy efficient rally covering a couple hundred kilometers in three days i think, and it placed second after a Honda Insight. Not bad considering its an SUV, and considering these were long trips that would go beyond the "all electric range" (not really all electric) of the PHEV Escape.

[mustang_sallad]

photos from PHEV '09. Notice how the Volt already has the SAE standard plug.

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This post has been edited by mustang_sallad: 19 October 2009 - 11:40 PM

[rmc523]

nelsonlu, on Oct 19 2009, 11:35 PM, said:

But there is a $7.5K tax credit (and by the time that the Volt comes out, not only would the credit be entirely gone for Ford in additional to Toyota and Honda, but the entire hybrid tax credit will be about to sunset even for manufacturers that did not sell anywhere close to the numerical limit). And I am not sure that the scaling works, at least yet, for the Voltec architecture. Note how the first Cadillac application for the Voltec is going to be the Volt-sized Cadillac Converj, not anything like the Escalade.

In any case, I am not sure I agree with you that SUV is the right application in the instance in any case. Certainly I don't think GM's technology for the Yukon/Escalade Hybrids is particularly poor. But they didn't sell because 1) they don't actually make the Yukon/Escalade into fuel-efficient vehicles, just not complete gas guzzlers and 2) they create other sacrifices that sedan/hatchback drivers may be willing to live with, but not most SUV drivers. The Voltec architecture, even if applicable to SUVs, would have an even bigger issue there. A hypothetical Voltec version of the Escalade will be easily whipped by a plug-in Escape Hybrid in fuel efficiency, even if the Escape Hybrid's technology is, supposedly, technically inferior.

Escalade is rumored to be becoming a Lambda vehicle anyway.....

mustang_sallad, on Oct 20 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

Okay we'll see if they pull off their execution of this first shot at an ER-EV, but I think they've got a bulls eye with the basic powertrain design. Ford and Toyota are working on plug-in hybrids, but they don't offer true gas-free driving unless you're gentle on the throttle and keep it below about 45mph. I think series hybrid is where it's at (i've been working on plug-in series hybrids since a few months before GM first announced the Volt back in 2007, so I've always agreed with their thinking).

Hasn't the Camaro handily outsold the mustang for the past 3 months or so? Maybe the small minority of enthusiasts who spend a significant amount of time looking at cars on the internet get tired of these things pretty early, but the fact is I still haven't seen many Camaros on the road yet. I don't think people are necessarily gonna start getting tired of the Volt design before they ever see one on the road.

Ford had the Edge Hy-Series Plug-in Hybrid a few years ago:
http://www.autospies.com/images/users/omarrana/ford_edge_hyseries.jpg
http://www.autospectator.com/uploads/Ford/2007/Edge/HySeries/Edge_HySeries_eng.jpg

As for Camaro, yes, it's been outselling Mustang, but remember, Camaro has been off the market for years, so everybody that may've wanted one in their absence is getting one now, boosting sales over what would be considered a "normal" rate, and I'm sure many Mustang enthusiasts are waiting for the upgraded powertrains for 2011, keeping Mustang numbers lower than they'd "normally" be...

mustang_sallad, on Oct 20 2009, 12:39 AM, said:

photos from PHEV '09. Notice how the Volt already has the SAE standard plug.

That Volt interior looks fake...

[mustang_sallad]

the interior was fake, as I said it was a show car, not fully functional, and ya fake plastic interior.
The Hyseries stuff was very promising, and I liked how it pointed out that a series hybrid can run just about anything for the APU/range extender. I only wish they had put out a gas version instead of the ballard fuel cell. Maybe the plug-in they're proposing for 2012 is a series hybrid rather than something like their PHEV Escape test fleet. I think it was someone on here, or maybe Autoblog who pointed out how much of a marketing problem a PHEV would be if it couldn't claim 100% EV capability for the first 30 or 40 miles. Its so simple to say "Burns no gas for the first 40 miles". Saying "you likely won't burn very much gas for the first 40 miles if you drive slowly" isn't nearly as elegant or impressive.