Got my '10 FEH today

[SLAPhappy]

:happy feet:

 

 

Picked my 4WD version up this morning.

 

Using the onbard avg mpg computer readout a/c always on:

Drove home, 50 miles mostly interstate, 60mph or so, 34mpg

City driving, max 50mph, 20 miles, 28mpg

I was expecting my city mpg to be higher than my highway mpg.

 

The engine turns off when coasting or at a complete stop. When pulling away lightly from a stop, engine kicks back in at about 5-10 mph. I was expecting it to stay in electric mode longer.

 

I've got lots to learn. Hope we all can share ideas and tips.

 

So far, I'm happy. Wife likes it as well.

[GaryG]

:happy feet:

 

 

Picked my 4WD version up this morning.

 

Using the onbard avg mpg computer readout a/c always on:

Drove home, 50 miles mostly interstate, 60mph or so, 34mpg

City driving, max 50mph, 20 miles, 28mpg

I was expecting my city mpg to be higher than my highway mpg.

 

The engine turns off when coasting or at a complete stop. When pulling away lightly from a stop, engine kicks back in at about 5-10 mph. I was expecting it to stay in electric mode longer.

 

I've got lots to learn. Hope we all can share ideas and tips.

 

So far, I'm happy. Wife likes it as well.

 

Congrads!

 

Once you learn to manage the battery state of charge (SoC) the good news is your city mileage will be much better than highway mileage. With the 4WD and even my FWD I would not try start from a stop in EV or even try to accelerate much in EV. In other words save the battery SoC for cruising in EV at a steady state speed. This will allow you to accelerate under engine power much faster and not hold up traffic and also add additional charging to the battery. This is called the Pulse of the Pulse and Glide technique and it's very important to learn that accelerating to slow or to fast will hurt your MPG. I highly recommend joining http://www.cleanmpg.com/ and getting a SGII at a discount and following the hypermiler techniques found on that site. Engineer CarlD is a member and an expert on the SGII programming if you have any questions so read his post for information regarding the SGII and the FEH.

 

Learn the accelerator pedal blip for restarting the ICE from EV mode and how to accelerate using the SGII Instant MPG gauge. Your '10 4WD FEH should be capable of 45mpg tanks in mostly city driving if your willing to change your driving habits and master what ever hypermiling techniques you choose to use. On average, I accelerate at around 15mpg Instant SGII MPG. As you start from a stop with a accelerator blip your Instant MPG will be below 10mpg but as you increase your speed you will find holding a 15mpg Instant SGII reading causes you to really accelerate with most traffic. If I have no one behind me I find 20mpg is more than enough to get to my target steady state EV speed.

 

Now that I've completed over a full year round driving in my weather I expect to hit a lifetime MPG average this time next year with about 28,000 miles to be right at 52mpg. Currently with less than 15,000 miles my lifetime average will be over 49.5mpg when I add the tank I'm on now to this log: http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=gar...mp;viewcar=2612

Note that my MPG average is from the start of my permanent OD reading before break-in and the gas (E10) that was pumped into my tank to date. The factory MPG average gauge is 4% high on my '09 FEH so don't expect your MPG readings are correct till you fill-up a few times and compare with the pumped amount. Your engine will break-in at about 2,000 miles but the rest of the drivetrain takes about 15,000 miles before you get a great neutral gear glide. Get those tires up to 44psi (max sidewall) or you may want to keep them higher like I do at 50psi.

 

I started a '09 FEH techniques thread at Cleanmpg here: http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22158 and there is a 2010 FEH thread started also. You will not find any more knowledge in one place on the FEH than on this site.

[SLAPhappy]

Lot of good info Gary, thanks. I'm going to try your tips and see how I do. I have lots of reading to do on those forums. In all honesty, I don't see myself as a hypermiler, but I would like to learn how to do the little day to day things that will keep the mileage reasonably high.

[Transpower]

Lot of good info Gary, thanks. I'm going to try your tips and see how I do. I have lots of reading to do on those forums. In all honesty, I don't see myself as a hypermiler, but I would like to learn how to do the little day to day things that will keep the mileage reasonably high.

 

If there is no one behind you, you can accelerate to 40 mph in EV mode. If you're in engine mode and decelerating, depress the brake pedal at around 40 mph and you should change to EV mode and stay in EV mode all the way to stop.

 

I'm now getting 30 mpg in the city and 33 mpg on the highway (steady 65 mph, level, behind tractor-trailer).

[GaryG]

If there is no one behind you, you can accelerate to 40 mph in EV mode. If you're in engine mode and decelerating, depress the brake pedal at around 40 mph and you should change to EV mode and stay in EV mode all the way to stop.

 

I'm now getting 30 mpg in the city and 33 mpg on the highway (steady 65 mph, level, behind tractor-trailer).

 

He should be able to go EV at 44mph by just letting off the gas pedal in the new '10 FEH. Also, at any speed above 44mph he should be able to tap the brake pedal after letting Off the gas pedal and get full fuel-cut till he goes EV at 44mph. You must be in "D" to get fuel-cut but after he goes EV he can shift to "N" for a free glide without regen.

[SLAPhappy]

If there is no one behind you, you can accelerate to 40 mph in EV mode. If you're in engine mode and decelerating, depress the brake pedal at around 40 mph and you should change to EV mode and stay in EV mode all the way to stop.

 

I'm now getting 30 mpg in the city and 33 mpg on the highway (steady 65 mph, level, behind tractor-trailer).

 

I have not been able to accelerate beyond about 10mph in EV mode. Engine always kicks in despite how light footed I am. Whenever I take my foot off the gas and coast, it goes full EV until I hit the gas pedal. I don't have to touch the brake pedal.

 

I wish I could accelerate to 40mph in EV mode.

 

There must be some driving characteristis differences in the '10.

[GaryG]

I have not been able to accelerate beyond about 10mph in EV mode. Engine always kicks in despite how light footed I am. Whenever I take my foot off the gas and coast, it goes full EV until I hit the gas pedal. I don't have to touch the brake pedal.

 

I wish I could accelerate to 40mph in EV mode.

 

There must be some driving characteristis differences in the '10.

 

Sounds like there is not much difference in your '10 FEH than my '09 FEH other than the 4WD is even harder to accelerate in EV mode. As I said, kick the engine On to accelerate and use the battery for cruising at a steady state speed in EV. That's how I do it and I just logged today a 729.9 mile tank again at 53.55mpg in my '09 FEH http://www.cleanmpg.com/index.php?page=gar...mp;viewcar=2612 . There is no need to try and accelerate in EV mode in a 4WD FEH but it will get easier as you put more miles on it and learn to drive it better.

 

My '05 FEH accelerates faster in EV mode and I can get to 30mph from a stop. The 2.3L Atkinson is less fuel efficient than the 2.5L, so it's more efficient to accelerate in EV mode in the '05 FEH. I'm accelerating more in EV in the '09 now that it's broke-in but there can't be any cars behind me because EV acceleration is to slow for me. If I had a 4WD FEH, I wouldn't even try.

[SLAPhappy]

Thanks, Gary, I'll try accelerating to speed and see what happens. So far I haven't been able to find that sweet spot where I can travel on a level road at 40mph at full EV. The owner's manual states that at most the vehicle will travel one mile as an EV.

 

I did pick up an extra 3mpg city simply by using normal a/c instead of max a/c. With the electric a/c it continues to run while the ICE is off. I suppose max a/c uses more electricity causing the battery to need more frequent recharging.

 

I've got a big trip coming up, over 1k miles, which is mostly highway. The little four banger is going to be working hard. I'm hoping for 30+mpg since the ICE will be on most of the time.

[GaryG]

Thanks, Gary, I'll try accelerating to speed and see what happens. So far I haven't been able to find that sweet spot where I can travel on a level road at 40mph at full EV. The owner's manual states that at most the vehicle will travel one mile as an EV.

 

I did pick up an extra 3mpg city simply by using normal a/c instead of max a/c. With the electric a/c it continues to run while the ICE is off. I suppose max a/c uses more electricity causing the battery to need more frequent recharging.

 

I've got a big trip coming up, over 1k miles, which is mostly highway. The little four banger is going to be working hard. I'm hoping for 30+mpg since the ICE will be on most of the time.

 

Be clear, are you saying the '10 FEH will not go EV at 44mph? Does the engine shut-off RPM when coasting below 45mph or are you just not able to hold that speed with the 4WD. I can set my cruise control at 40mph in my '09 FEH and let the battery drain till a restart. I was reading articles that the '10 FEH EV speed was increased to 44mph which is much faster than my '09 FEH. My '09 will coast down a hill to 41mph in EV but the engine is programmed start any faster than that speed. You should get to 44-45mph before a restart according to the articles I've read, are they wrong?

[SLAPhappy]

I can coast to about 44mph in EV, but I have yet been able to drive a constant 40 or so mph in EV. One thing I haven't been able to test is coast down a hill then hit a level road. Around me whenever I go down a hill, once I reach bottom I have to go back up the hill on the other side. I've been able to coast EV at 40 or so on a slightly down hill run for about 3/4 mile until I hit a rise when the ICE turned back on. I now routinely drive with a/c in normal mode (not max a/c).

 

I can imagine if I found a way to run in EV at 44 until I ran down the battery, my mileage would skyrocket.

 

Am I experiencing the differences between 2WD and 4WD ?

[wptski]

I don't own a FEH but it is 4WD FE and have monitored the rear wheel torque with a scope connected to the output on the 4WD module. I have a Scanguage II setup to monitor rear wheel torque now which I've adjusted to match my scope readings.

 

The 4WD engages every time you leave a dead stop, most often reaching 25% or so and slowly drops to zero as you reach a steady cruising speed. At a steady speed no torque goes to the rear wheels.

[Walt]

Maybe you can answer some questions about the 2010 model year changes the hybrids are reportedly going to have on them.

 

Is the A/C compressor now electrically driven? Can you check under the hood and see if the A/C compressor has a "fan belt" still connected to it?

 

Is the HV battery now exclusively air cooled? Can you check under the rear to see if there are still freon (A/C) lines running into the HV battery compartment?

 

I did pick up an extra 3mpg city simply by using normal a/c instead of max a/c. With the electric a/c it continues to run while the ICE is off. I suppose max a/c uses more electricity causing the battery to need more frequent recharging.

 

The A/C fan will continue to blow air, even when the ICE is off in the normal A/C setting, with the belt driven compressor. That's why I am asking if you could please check under the hood (if you haven't already).

Edited September 16, 2009 by Walt

[Transpower]

I don't own a FEH but it is 4WD FE and have monitored the rear wheel torque with a scope connected to the output on the 4WD module. I have a Scanguage II setup to monitor rear wheel torque now which I've adjusted to match my scope readings.

 

The 4WD engages every time you leave a dead stop, most often reaching 25% or so and slowly drops to zero as you reach a steady cruising speed. At a steady speed no torque goes to the rear wheels.

 

 

2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid with 4WD: there is an electric motor in the back which drives the rear wheels. I can (slowly) start in EV mode and continue up to about 40 mph--no problem (unless there are cars behind me).

Edited September 16, 2009 by Transpower

[wptski]

2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid with 4WD: there is an electric motor in the back which drives the rear wheels. I can (slowly) start in EV mode and continue up to about 40 mph--no problem (unless there are cars behind me).

There's no basic difference in operation of 4WD between the a Hybrid and non-Hybrid. Both have a elctro-mechanical clutch in the rearend driven by a PTU. I started a thread at GreenHybrid about 4WD in both. All kinds of theories came up and I think somebody also mentioned a seperate motor for the rear wheel but that disproved.

 

Here's a link to the thread: GH thread

 

Are you sure your not confused with the electric motor being used in reverse??

[GaryG]

I can coast to about 44mph in EV, but I have yet been able to drive a constant 40 or so mph in EV. One thing I haven't been able to test is coast down a hill then hit a level road. Around me whenever I go down a hill, once I reach bottom I have to go back up the hill on the other side. I've been able to coast EV at 40 or so on a slightly down hill run for about 3/4 mile until I hit a rise when the ICE turned back on. I now routinely drive with a/c in normal mode (not max a/c).

 

I can imagine if I found a way to run in EV at 44 until I ran down the battery, my mileage would skyrocket.

 

Am I experiencing the differences between 2WD and 4WD ?

 

It's most likely more efficient to run the A/C in the Max mode since the engine will shutdown in both normal and Max mode. All Max mode does is recirculate cabin air and therefore once the cabin is cool the electric compressor does not have to work as hard. Normal A/C mode has to cool the air from the outside continuously.

 

It sounds like the '10 FEH is good for 44mph EV speeds and you are experiencing both the differences between the 2WD and 4WD and the lack of powertrain break-in yet. Time will tell, but I think after break-in you will enjoy 44mph 4WD EV speeds but don't expect it to perform like the 2WD. Also, just because you can go as fast as 40 - 44mph in EV does not mean your mileage will skyrocket. My mileage is best at 30mph in EV and the faster I go, wind resistance eats up battery SoC much faster. The main benefit of a 44mph EV speed is staying with traffic in EV for short periods of time because of the limited travel distance with this type of battery.

 

BTW, I prefer rolling hills over the flat roads I have any day. The hypermiler techniques I use allows my mileage to skyrocket in rolling hills compared to the flat roads I have. It's kinda like a runner will practice running up hill to get prepared for a race on a flat track. Instead, I'm driving with limited techniques on flat roads so when I hit a hill I can enjoy the coasting techniques downhill I've mastered on flat roads. I had no idea until the Hybridfest MPG Chalenge in Madison WI in July of 2007. Those rolling hills were music to my mileage in the '05 FWD FEH using E10. I'd say my mileage would have been cut by 10mpg on flat roads here in Florida.

[SLAPhappy]

I'm about to test the highway mileage big time over the next week.

 

Walt - I do not see an engine drive belt that is connected to an a/c compressor. fwiw, the owner's manual states it is an electric a/c system.

 

Gary, I'm not sure why my mileage went up when I switched max a/c to normal a/c. My city trips are not much longer than 3-5 miles at a time.

 

About the 4wd torque to the rear wheels going to zero -- I would like to think that if I was driving in snow all four wheels would be "driven".

 

I'm unaware of a button that I press to keep it in EV mode at low speeds. IIRC, the EPA estimates were lower for the '10 than the '09 models.

 

I'm quite happy with it.

[wptski]

About the 4wd torque to the rear wheels going to zero -- I would like to think that if I was driving in snow all four wheels would be "driven".

I was under the impression that "only" driving conditions with front wheel slippage would enable the 4WD but that isn't the case. Frankly, I don't see the point of enabling 4WD on dry pavement. I'm almost looking forward to winter and some snow to see how much rear wheel I really get.

[Transpower]

There's no basic difference in operation of 4WD between the a Hybrid and non-Hybrid. Both have a elctro-mechanical clutch in the rearend driven by a PTU. I started a thread at GreenHybrid about 4WD in both. All kinds of theories came up and I think somebody also mentioned a seperate motor for the rear wheel but that disproved.

 

Here's a link to the thread: GH thread

 

Are you sure your not confused with the electric motor being used in reverse??

 

 

From Edmunds.com: All-wheel-drive Mariner Hybrids have an additional electric motor that provides power to the rear wheels when extra traction or acceleration is needed.

 

However, I cannot find a technical description on the Mercury/Ford Web sites. The options lists seem to imply that the "Intelligent 4WD System" is used for both hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles, which would then imply that it's not driven by an electric motor and, therefore, that Edmunds is wrong.

[wptski]

From Edmunds.com: All-wheel-drive Mariner Hybrids have an additional electric motor that provides power to the rear wheels when extra traction or acceleration is needed.

 

However, I cannot find a technical description on the Mercury/Ford Web sites. The options lists seem to imply that the "Intelligent 4WD System" is used for both hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles, which would then imply that it's not driven by an electric motor and, therefore, that Edmunds is wrong.

Well, 4WD is driven by a PTU which is a transmission output. What drives the transmission at that time? It really could be either but I'm pretty sure that there is only one electric motor and no seperate motor for the rear wheels.

[GaryG]

Well, 4WD is driven by a PTU which is a transmission output. What drives the transmission at that time? It really could be either but I'm pretty sure that there is only one electric motor and no seperate motor for the rear wheels.

 

Your right Bill, there is no separate motor for the rear wheels. The Toyota Highlander Hybrid (THH) does have a separate electric motor for the 4WD model and that may be where the confusion came from. Reverse is driven by the traction motor in the eCVT but that's is true for the FWD and 4WD in the FEH. I wouldn't think the TTH would operate the rear electric motor all the time like the 4WD FEH, but who knows?

[wptski]

Your right Bill, there is no separate motor for the rear wheels. The Toyota Highlander Hybrid (THH) does have a separate electric motor for the 4WD model and that may be where the confusion came from. Reverse is driven by the traction motor in the eCVT but that's is true for the FWD and 4WD in the FEH. I wouldn't think the TTH would operate the rear electric motor all the time like the 4WD FEH, but who knows?

I ran across a website one time that explains the different 4WD/AWD systems out there and mentioned some of the vehicles that use each system. None of the systems described works like the Ford Escape does! The difference is in "when" its enabled more than how it's powered.

Edited September 17, 2009 by wptski