mettech Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 Wife will buy a new car (not a SUV) soon. She wants a hybrid. After showing her pictures of the 2010 Fusion she said she would like to look at it when it comes out. Then she reads that Ford will only make 25000 of them. She laughed and shock her head in disappointment. She is going to our local Ford dealership after work and see how many they are getting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwford Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Wife will buy a new car (not a SUV) soon. She wants a hybrid. After showing her pictures of the 2010 Fusion she said she would like to look at it when it comes out. Then she reads that Ford will only make 25000 of them. She laughed and shock her head in disappointment. She is going to our local Ford dealership after work and see how many they are getting. 25,000 is correct. She is not going to get to "look at" the Fusion Hybrid. More likely the dealer will tell you to order now and it'll be here when it gets here like they do with the Escape Hybrid. At least you'll get to pick your color and options! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 dwford is correct. she is better off ordering what she wants now and at worst if she doesnt like it when it arrives she says no. the dealer wont care because people will be waiting to buy it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 25,000 isn't bad at all. Look at the total Fusion numbers and then think about it. That breaks down to one in 6-8 will be a hybrid. Sounds about right to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice-capades Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 The 2010 Fusion Order Guide lists the 2010 Fusion Hybrid at about 8% of total Fusion production. Ford is stating that they'll build 25,000 which would be substantially more than the suggested 8% rate and certainly welcome as hybrid vehicle demand will only continue to grow in our changing market and economy. Ford held a National Ford Dealer Council Meeting recently and as part of of its' statement to Ford dealers said that "Fusion Hybrid allocation will be a more equitable distribution strategy across the country" which can only be good news for all of us that have had to deal with the Escape Hybrid problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 The 2010 Fusion Order Guide lists the 2010 Fusion Hybrid at about 8% of total Fusion production. Ford is stating that they'll build 25,000 which would be substantially more than the suggested 8% rate and certainly welcome as hybrid vehicle demand will only continue to grow in our changing market and economy. Ford held a National Ford Dealer Council Meeting recently and as part of of its' statement to Ford dealers said that "Fusion Hybrid allocation will be a more equitable distribution strategy across the country" which can only be good news for all of us that have had to deal with the Escape Hybrid problems. I bet the 25,000 figure includes the Milan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I bet the 25,000 figure includes the Milan. That would make it one in eight if you include Fusion/Milan Hybrid as same vehicle which it basically is. However, if the 2010 Fusion/Milan sell better as expected, then one in nine or ten sounds more realistic. In other words, if gas prices ramp up next year as they probably will, these hybrids will be just as scarce as Escape/Mariner Hybrids. You order and hope you get one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I bet the 25,000 figure includes the Milan. Of course it includes the Milan! The Fusion Hybrid is over priced and will never help Ford's bottom line. I was ready to order and purchase a FFH, but not now with the price and dealer mark-up. Now that we have no tracking here, screw it completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwford Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Of course it includes the Milan! The Fusion Hybrid is over priced and will never help Ford's bottom line. I was ready to order and purchase a FFH, but not now with the price and dealer mark-up. Now that we have no tracking here, screw it completely. People don't buy a hybrid on price. If they did, no one would buy them because the economics of hybrids don't work out compared to a regular gas car. The hybrid payback is too long. You buy a hybrid to feel good about burning less gas and saving the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwford Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Some hybrid math for you: 2009 Fusion SEL 4cylinder/6 spd auto: $23,975 per Autoblog 2009 Fusion Hybrid base: $27,270 Why compare the Fusion SEL to the Hybrid. Per the Order Guide, the Hybrid is equipped like an SEL Figure a $2000 rebate/discount on the SEL (if not right away, then fairly soon after considering the market) That makes a $5295 price spread Figure the SEL will average 27 mpg, the Hybrid 34 mpg 15,000 miles / 27 mpg = 556 gallons of gas x $4.00 = $2,220 annual gas expense 15,000 miles / 34 mpg = 441 gallons of gas x $4.00 = $1,764 Savings: $456/year $5295 price difference / $456 savings = 11 1/2 year payback time. Who owns a car for 11 years ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonlu Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 People don't buy a hybrid on price. If they did, no one would buy them because the economics of hybrids don't work out compared to a regular gas car. The hybrid payback is too long. You buy a hybrid to feel good about burning less gas and saving the environment. If my calculation is right, based on my own driving pattern -- which is hardly optimal for hybrids (25,000/year, but perhaps 85% of it on the highway), I was estimating that I'd break even in four years if gas price were $4.00 per gallon. (Remember that Fords -- along with Nissans and GMs -- are still eligible for hybrid tax credits.) Now, that's obviously not the price now, but I wouldn't be surprised if gas goes back to that level in the summer. For people who drive more in the city, it can make a lot of sense economically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwford Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 If my calculation is right, based on my own driving pattern -- which is hardly optimal for hybrids (25,000/year, but perhaps 85% of it on the highway), I was estimating that I'd break even in four years if gas price were $4.00 per gallon. (Remember that Fords -- along with Nissans and GMs -- are still eligible for hybrid tax credits.) Now, that's obviously not the price now, but I wouldn't be surprised if gas goes back to that level in the summer. For people who drive more in the city, it can make a lot of sense economically. True, the tax credit will lower the break even point quite a bit. But we don't know what it wil be yet for the Fusion Hybrid, and it expires once Ford sells 60,000 hybrids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Of course it includes the Milan! The Fusion Hybrid is over priced and will never help Ford's bottom line. I was ready to order and purchase a FFH, but not now with the price and dealer mark-up. Now that we have no tracking here, screw it completely. Ford expects all of its hybrids to be profitable by the time the FFH is on sale, so it does help their bottom line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 People don't buy a hybrid on price. If they did, no one would buy them because the economics of hybrids don't work out compared to a regular gas car. The hybrid payback is too long. You buy a hybrid to feel good about burning less gas and saving the environment. I'm not really concerned about the payback because the resale value of the hybrid will always get your money back. I own a '05 FEH and a '09 FEH and they both are good investments and I bought them for that and to save money on gas. If you learn to drive the FEH you can average 45mpg tanks which is far better than the EPA rating. My '05 is worth $5,000 over the gas version now so I've saved a lot of money with 52,000 miles so far. My point was the price of the Fusion Hybrid and the sticker plus price you pay to order one is to much. Add tax and tag and go to the bank to finance and you will need a big down payment. Things are just getting out of hand so I'll wait and bargain for one on a lot when Ford and the dealers are starving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Add tax and tag and go to the bank to finance and you will need a big down payment. Only if your credit sucks. Ford Motor Credit hasn't changed its lending practices in the past couple of months. Neither have most larger banks for auto loans. You could probably buy one through Ford with zero down. Things are just getting out of hand so I'll wait and bargain for one on a lot when Ford and the dealers are starving. Good luck waiting on that. The day there is a "bargain" on a hybrid is the day they may actually be worth owning....which won't be anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Martin Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 But if gas hits $12 per gallon, you are going to wish that you had the hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 But if gas hits $12 per gallon, you are going to wish that you had the hybrid. If gas hits $12 per gallon anytime soon, even hybrid drivers won't be able to fuel their vehicles. It's not like hybrids are some magic bullet that gets rid of the need for gasoline. Most of them don't even get twice the milage of my current daily driver, or even close for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Only if your credit sucks. Ford Motor Credit hasn't changed its lending practices in the past couple of months. Neither have most larger banks for auto loans. You could probably buy one through Ford with zero down. Good luck waiting on that. The day there is a "bargain" on a hybrid is the day they may actually be worth owning....which won't be anytime soon. I could have financed all of my '09 FEHL sticker plus the last minute $500 price increase (jerk off dealer fee) and tax and tag at a higher rate, but no thank you. The point of being that far upside down without a big down payment is what I'm talking about. Ford and the dealers are going to be hurting even more come April without a big bailout. Big Oil has drained our economy too fast with the quick rise in gas prices, so I expect they will keep them low for awhile. These car dealers should look like chicks in a birds nest trying to get a worm by April, so I'll take my chances on a good deal or no deal at all then. There are very few of us that know just how valuable the FEH and FFH is or will be. The dealers have jacked up the prices of the Shelby GT 500 that I've seen the same ones on the lots for months now. The people with the money in today's market can and will wait for a good deal. I own two hybrids already so if gas prices go up, I'll still be ahead of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 I'm not really concerned about the payback because the resale value of the hybrid will always get your money back. I own a '05 FEH and a '09 FEH and they both are good investments and I bought them for that and to save money on gas. If you learn to drive the FEH you can average 45mpg tanks which is far better than the EPA rating. My '05 is worth $5,000 over the gas version now so I've saved a lot of money with 52,000 miles so far. My point was the price of the Fusion Hybrid and the sticker plus price you pay to order one is to much. Add tax and tag and go to the bank to finance and you will need a big down payment. Things are just getting out of hand so I'll wait and bargain for one on a lot when Ford and the dealers are starving. This just amazes me. No matter how slow a dealer gets, if a car is a hot commodity, you're gonna pay for it. If I'm not making alot of money selling volume cars, why would I give away the car I can make money on? I keep hearing this about GT500s too. I just sold one for $5000 over list. Had it on the lot less than a week. Had multiple dealers call asking for it. And my dealership is loooooow right now. Maybe I should've taken an invoice deal, right? BTW, the customer was tickled pink to take home the car that day. He got his deal, we got ours, everybody's happy. It's called market value.... Guess what, the Fusion Hybrid is gonna be hot, and dealers won't be giving them away initially. Now if Ford builds enough, and all dealers have a couple on their lots, that could change, but.... ...How long is the wait for Prius Hybrids now? And they suck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 This just amazes me. No matter how slow a dealer gets, if a car is a hot commodity, you're gonna pay for it. If I'm not making alot of money selling volume cars, why would I give away the car I can make money on? I keep hearing this about GT500s too. I just sold one for $5000 over list. Had it on the lot less than a week. Had multiple dealers call asking for it. And my dealership is loooooow right now. Maybe I should've taken an invoice deal, right? BTW, the customer was tickled pink to take home the car that day. He got his deal, we got ours, everybody's happy. It's called market value.... Guess what, the Fusion Hybrid is gonna be hot, and dealers won't be giving them away initially. Now if Ford builds enough, and all dealers have a couple on their lots, that could change, but.... ...How long is the wait for Prius Hybrids now? And they suck! The customers looking for a hybrid are trying to save money and the customer wanting to buy a GT 500 could care less about saving money on gas. I'm sure your customer was tickled pink to get his toy, but the customer wanting a hybrid does not like to be ripped off trying to save money on gas. There is no question the Fusion Hybrid is engineered to be the best mid-size sedan in today's market, but you the dealership salesman are driving the buyer into the Prius market. Keep it up and Toyota will be selling the Ford Fusion Hybrid in a few years. When you raise your prices, Toyota can raise theirs at a bigger profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 The customers looking for a hybrid are trying to save money and the customer wanting to buy a GT 500 could care less about saving money on gas. I'm sure your customer was tickled pink to get his toy, but the customer wanting a hybrid does not like to be ripped off trying to save money on gas. There is no question the Fusion Hybrid is engineered to be the best mid-size sedan in today's market, but you the dealership salesman are driving the buyer into the Prius market. Keep it up and Toyota will be selling the Ford Fusion Hybrid in a few years. When you raise your prices, Toyota can raise theirs at a bigger profit. Most hybrid buyers don't buy them to save money - they buy them to be environmentally sensitive and in some cases - like most prius owners - to let the world know that loud and clear. Hybrids have never been cheaper - even when gas was $4/gallon. Hybrids cost more so Ford has to charge more. Or do you think Ford should just lose money on every one they produce just so you can save a few bucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 True, the tax credit will lower the break even point quite a bit. But we don't know what it wil be yet for the Fusion Hybrid, and it expires once Ford sells 60,000 hybrids. not true! after 60k the credit still exists but gets smaller. same when a company hits 75k(iirc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsonlu Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 not true! after 60k the credit still exists but gets smaller. same when a company hits 75k(iirc) Actually, what happens is that when 60,000 are sold, the credit begins to phase out. For two quarters after 60,000 are reached, the credit is still full credit, but then drops to 50% for two more quarters, then to 25% for two more quarters, then ends entirely. See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid.shtml (click on "Phase Out & Termination). As I do not believe that Ford has hit 60,000 yet (it's 60,000 retail -- so fleet purchases don't count) the credit will apply for at least two more quarters into 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Big Oil has drained our economy too fast with the quick rise in gas prices, so I expect they will keep them low for awhile. Yeah, ExxonMobil!! You killed the economy!! Shame on you! I really hope you don't believe that garbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted November 29, 2008 Share Posted November 29, 2008 Yeah, ExxonMobil!! You killed the economy!! Shame on you! I really hope you don't believe that garbage. Given how much of the gas they sell is refined from oil they pump, they could have sold gas for $2/gallon this whole time, and still made a strong profit. The same is true of almost all the gas companies. Basing retail prices on futures spot prices is ludicrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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