Falcon on Hold. Is this really a Bombshell?

[Harley Lover]

Here's the article: http://wheelsmag.com.au/Features/2008+Pari...mWheelsSpecials

 

Is this really a bombshell? Or is it another confirmation of what we already knew?

[Edstock]

Not surprising.

 

Consider that the current Falcon platform is a good design, completely competitive, with development potential. It can stay a while, without turning into a Panther chassis.

 

Its replacement, say for 2013, is a platform that Ford would probably expect a decade out of, say, to 2023.

 

So, the designers have to come up with a platform that can adapt to gas, diesel and hybrid/fuel cell powertrains, plus keep the weight to a minimum, to be competitive with future fuel costs and emissions/CO2 regs.

 

Unlike GM and the G8, IMHO, Ford is correct to take its time in this decision. IMHO, this makes a GRWD platform more likely, for Falcon, Mustang and a Lincoln.

 

IMHO, a 5-series size is a good place to start.

[COOLDADDY]

Not surprising.

 

Consider that the current Falcon platform is a good design, completely competitive, with development potential. It can stay a while, without turning into a Panther chassis.

 

Its replacement, say for 2013, is a platform that Ford would probably expect a decade out of, say, to 2023.

 

So, the designers have to come up with a platform that can adapt to gas, diesel and hybrid/fuel cell powertrains, plus keep the weight to a minimum, to be competitive with future fuel costs and emissions/CO2 regs.

 

Unlike GM and the G8, IMHO, Ford is correct to take its time in this decision. IMHO, this makes a GRWD platform more likely, for Falcon, Mustang and a Lincoln.

 

IMHO, a 5-series size is a good place to start.

 

Ford's main goal is increased sales. With the RWD market declining, what ARE the majority of people buying? It seems to be FWD cars with good milage and space, with decent handling.

 

It wouldn't be a bad idea to pool resources between Ford NA/AU, Volvo and Lincoln to come up with a very credible front drive platform with great engineering, space, handling, and fuel economy that they could use globally.

 

If they're concerned about performance, there are FWD sedans that can handle, just look at the Mondeo or even the Nissan Maxima; plus if you want increased performance, you can use AWD.

 

For those who can't do without RWD, by then the Mustang is up for a full redesign. Develope a world class RWD platform for the Mustang and sell it globally. With a choice of fuel efficient turbo V6s and high powered V8s, anyone needing performance can look in that direction.

 

With that two-tiered approach, you wont bring volume down in the sedan market for those who need performance.

 

Just my rambling thoughts.

[jpd80]

For those who can't do without RWD, by then the Mustang is up for a full redesign. Develope a world class RWD platform for the Mustang and sell it globally. With a choice of fuel efficient turbo V6s and high powered V8s, anyone needing performance can look in that direction.

 

With that two-tiered approach, you wont bring volume down in the sedan market for those who need performance.

 

Just my rambling thoughts.

The latest redesign of the Falcon only cost US$400 million and included a 1 tonne half chassis pick up.

The Falcon is a world class sedan and needs to be reunited with it brother the Mustang.

If that is done, both can share much more of their development budgets.

At the moment Ford is about to benefit from common powertrains and electrical systems

so there is no great urgency to combine anything for this produt cycle.

Edited October 3, 2008 by jpd80

[focus05]

Frankly, I wish they'd keep momentum here so that they can evolve Lincoln back into a RWD shop at least in the mid-size to full-size range. I know asking for a small RWD Lincoln (ala 3-series) would be asking WAY too much.

 

Another quick thought. I know that Ford is working on a LWB version of EUCD, and it was my understanding that they were going to create the next-gen D-platform by extending the next-gen CD platform (could be completely making that up, though). So theoretically, they could shoot for a 5-series sized base platform and then extend it for the Falcon if needed?

Edited October 3, 2008 by focus05

[jpd80]

Frankly, I wish they'd keep momentum here so that they can evolve Lincoln back into a RWD shop at least in the mid-size to full-size range. I know asking for a small RWD Lincoln (ala 3-series) would be asking WAY too much.

Ford NA has its head stuck up its FWd ass.

[timmm55]

That's just what I've been thinking....a smaller RWD chassis. I think even smaller than a 5 series.

[jpd80]

That's just what I've been thinking....a smaller RWD chassis. I think even smaller than a 5 series.

Perhaps a GRWD that spans Focus to Falcon and has a Mustang somewhere in between?

I see great opportunity for that working especially in Lincoln and as a Thunderbird revival.

[Edstock]

IMHO, the difference in track, or width, is the problem, because the floorpan for each, and especially the firewall for each, has to be completely different. Lengthening the floorpan and maybe even roofline changes are not as expensive.

 

Maybe the question should be: with the chassis of the next Mustang as the starting point, what could be made in the way of a sedan?

 

Can a sedan be made from a lengthened Mustang chassis that's wide enough for a Falcon replacement and a Lincoln sedan?

[jpd80]

IMHO, the difference in track, or width, is the problem, because the floorpan for each, and especially the firewall for each, has to be completely different. Lengthening the floorpan and maybe even roofline changes are not as expensive.

 

Maybe the question should be: with the chassis of the next Mustang as the starting point, what could be made in the way of a sedan?

 

Can a sedan be made from a lengthened Mustang chassis that's wide enough for a Falcon replacement and a Lincoln sedan?

The Falcon does use a recessed firewall to accomodate the Inline 6 but this could be change if an EB I-4 were substituted...

The tread width difference between Falcon and C1 Focus is 2" so maybe when FoA starts building both in the one plant,

they will have an unique opportunity to think of permutatiions....like Doctor Moreau?

Edited October 3, 2008 by jpd80

[Edstock]

Falcon

 

Front track 62.32"

Rear track 62.91

 

Wheelbase 111.73

 

Mustang

 

Wheelbase 107.1

 

Front track 62.4

Rear track 63

 

So, tt seems that the current Mustanf is right in the ballpark for width. Or, the next Falcon chassis can be shortened for a Mustang.

[2b2]

I know asking for a small RWD Lincoln (ala 3-series) would be asking WAY too much.

Perhaps a GRWD that spans Focus to Falcon and has a Mustang somewhere in between?

I see great opportunity for that working especially in Lincoln and as a Thunderbird revival.

With the 3-series, C-klasse, & now A4 all being around 180" or more, a Lincoln ""C"" sedan would hardly have to be any smaller-on-the-outside than the current Mustang

and a new Rwd flagship-Lincoln had better NOT be anywhere near as long as the TC...

figure 185" to barely over 200" ovl could included all the sizes that would have significant sales numbers

(a limited-edition personal-limo could be a stretched version)

&

I agree JPD, a Thunderbird that will seat 4 adults in comfort, 5 in a (slight)pinch (like most other sedans on the market) would be an ideal Ford-flagship

& imho more sale-able than any Taurus or even 'Taurino'(sic)

 

& (I can't resist)

switching to wheelbases & 3" steps (sheetmetal is more variable imho):

107" Mustang & 2-seat-HRL

110" Cougar

113" MKR (with a real name - whacha think of "Constellation"?)

116" Thunderbird (Interceptor-ish 4-door) (& Mark 2-door?)

119" Continental

122" TouringCar/flagship (U.S.-Arabia-China-only)

assuming interior space/packaging at least equal to the FG-Falcon, which size sounds best for your nextgen, JPD?

&

want a new Fairlane?

&

no reason you couldn't build a Mustang down-under either re-

&

maybe the HRL could be built there too... all-aluminIum?

Edited October 4, 2008 by 2b2

[jpd80]

Thanks b2b and some very interesting thoughts on moving forward.

The Falcon has been on its last chance for over 20 years , FNA have found it very hard to kill.

 

I'm now thinking our perceptions of small, mid sized and Large vehicles are changing rapidly.

In pure internal dimensions, the difference between a C1 Focus and a Crown Victoria /Falcon is 4" x 4".

By that I mean 4" more rear leg room and 4" more hip and Shoulder room.

A 4" x 4" expanded C1 Focus sedan would give a vehicle 8" shorter than a Fusion and just a touch wider,

a mind numbing proposition to people looking at the longer Taurus (200"), CV (211") and Falcon (195").

 

Hypothetical,

Base the next Mustang on a RWD extension of C1 Focus with EB I-4, EB V6 and V8.

That way it remains light and able to be built down any Focus production line in the world.

Give it a unique top hat that ensures the dimensions and proportions remain true to heritage.

 

A future larger RWD could similarly be based off the larger version of C1 or /EUCD/D3 combination

and could also use the common pool of RWd engines mentioned above.

 

I still think bold, agressive styling is possible for Mustang and others while

complying to European pedestrian crash regulations.

 

True it will take some pretty hard work but nothing is really impossible.

Edited October 4, 2008 by jpd80

[2b2]

^ thank you, JPD

& if you liked that, here's a nother

 

designing platforms with modular front and rear halves

 

with EcoBoost (for starters) it should be more likely to meet varying power requirements with one engine size - therefore one(smaller/lighter) engine compartment

which could be grafted onto different size passenger/cargo comparments

leading to more efficient & easily-made models/choices

addit. details available if interested

 

BUT

you didn't answer....

mainly curious if any of those proposed US models comes closes in size to how you'd want your nextgen Falcon

& for a new Fairlane* - if that'd be wanted

then

- a locally-built Mustang?

- and an HRL* built there too... with lots of Aussie aluminIum?

 

 

* I have this dream of ships passing eachother mid-Pacific

east-bound with HRL's

west-bound with Fairlanes

 

ps

you know what HRL stands for, right?

pps

congrats on your shadow-acct/stalker on your home forum :eek:

(just saw one thread - hope he's not too awful)

Edited October 4, 2008 by 2b2

[jpd80]

Ok b2b,

I think a slightly smaller vehicles with the RWDs are called for, the new Falcon in 2013

A new "Fairlane" should be between FG Falcon and Taurus, siand the New Falcon should be

Mondeo/Fusion sized with EB I-4 base EB V6 and V8 as top of the line.

 

Modular frames and cars are the way ahead and I can see great advantage with recycling shells

and using adjustable front and rear end framing for FWDs and RWDs.

I think Ford is trying hard to avoid a Zeta mistake and they will succeed by letting Falcon/Mustang/CV

share power trains suspensions and electrical systems. by doing that they all become kind of loosely

linked sort of one level below a common platform, saving money at supplier level.

 

 

PS,

I am my own shadow account, jpd80 here and on Ford Aus forums.

I get a bit annoysed that Ford wants to kill the Falcon yet the eplacements are selling like crap.

Good old Ford corporate marketing strategy - let someone else do it.

Edited October 4, 2008 by jpd80

[armadamaster]

No worries.....AU will be receiving their FWD D3 sedan replacement shortly.....

[jpd80]

Sorry, no D3 FWDs for AUS until at least 2103.

The FG Falcon Series II with V6 for 2010 has been already signed off.

 

 

Maybe FoA grafts a Falcon RWD nose onto the Focus, add CB IRS out back

and we have a poor man's BMW for the masses.

 

Let me luxuriate in that thought for a while................

Edited October 4, 2008 by jpd80

[Edstock]

Base the next Mustang on a RWD extension of C1 Focus with EB I-4, EB V6 and V8.

That could be done, but the result would be overly compromised, IMHO.

 

Why? Because the C1 is a design for transverse engine mounting. Sure, you can turn the engine lengthwise to do the RWD V-8, but the problem is that the C-1 does not have sufficient distance from the front wheel center to the firewall (because of its FWD origin) for good engine set-back for good RWD weight distribution. That V-8 will be really front-loaded.

 

Sure, you could do it, but it would be a pig to drive. You could do a new C1 variant with a new firewall and front engine bay and enough room for engine setback, but why bother?

 

But, it is interesting to see that the track widths of the basic Mustang and Falcon are almost identical. There has got to be something that can come from this for 2015 or so.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

That could be done, but the result would be overly compromised, IMHO.

 

Why? Because the C1 is a design for transverse engine mounting. Sure, you can turn the engine lengthwise to do the RWD V-8, but the problem is that the C-1 does not have sufficient distance from the front wheel center to the firewall (because of its FWD origin) for good engine set-back for good RWD weight distribution. That V-8 will be really front-loaded.

 

Sure, you could do it, but it would be a pig to drive. You could do a new C1 variant with a new firewall and front engine bay and enough room for engine setback, but why bother?

 

But, it is interesting to see that the track widths of the basic Mustang and Falcon are almost identical. There has got to be something that can come from this for 2015 or so.

 

No car handles better than a RWD Porsche 911 GT3 Ed, why cant Ford make something exciting like this and have it as their next RWD Capri ?

http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_070...the_winner.html

[Edstock]

No car handles better than a RWD Porsche 911 GT3 Ed, why cant Ford make something exciting like this and have it as their next RWD Capri ?

http://www.motortrend.com/features/112_070...the_winner.html

Sad to say, but probably because the 3 liter+ market is fading.

 

So now it's a C-30-R AWD, or the Focus RS with RevoKnuckle and Quaife. Looking forward to the driving reviews and Nordschliffe times.

 

IMHO, instead of spending hundreds of millions developing a chassis for a fading market segment, Ford would be more effective with an RSS Focus, with 400-500 hp and AWD.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Sad to say, but probably because the 3 liter+ market is fading.

 

Yes the Porsche 911 Coupe's a fading market they don't make much money these days Ed your right tough times ahead, Porsche only made a very poor profit of $17 Billion dollars in 2007 the profits might be as little as $12 Billion dollars profit in 2008 they might have to put the takeover of the Volkswagon Motor Company on hold now? Yes your right RWD cars don't make any money Ed.

http://www.motorauthority.com/report-porsc...s-revenues.html

Edited October 4, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Edstock]

Well Porsche seem to have declining sales, judging from the September results. Now, they are very proud of how profitable Porche is, and bully for them.

 

They have a 50+ year brand-image of high performance sports car building to help sell the Porsche image. Again, huzzah!

 

But Ford does not, and in unstable market conditions due to fuel costs and environmental legislation, it would be imprudent to try, just because you happen to be certain that there is a great profitable market for a Ford Capri high performance RWD automobile with no brand-image to support it for anybody under the age of 40.

 

People under 40 grew up with WRC and BTCC. A 400-500 hp AWD WRC-type Focus isn't your cherished RWD sled, but for most, after you hammer that puppy through a tight corner and hammer 500 AWD hp up the road, they won't care. You'll care, but they won't, and as I said, it would be a lot cheaper to build something like that than start with a brand-new RWD platform.

[jpd80]

That could be done, but the result would be overly compromised, IMHO.

 

Why? Because the C1 is a design for transverse engine mounting. Sure, you can turn the engine lengthwise to do the RWD V-8, but the problem is that the C-1 does not have sufficient distance from the front wheel center to the firewall (because of its FWD origin) for good engine set-back for good RWD weight distribution. That V-8 will be really front-loaded.

 

Sure, you could do it, but it would be a pig to drive. You could do a new C1 variant with a new firewall and front engine bay and enough room for engine setback, but why bother?

 

But, it is interesting to see that the track widths of the basic Mustang and Falcon are almost identical. There has got to be something that can come from this for 2015 or so.

All fair comments and a lot of engineering to sort out, Volvo S40 can handle rear differential as it

has different floor pan rear. Anything is possible, feasible perhaps, economical? who knows.

 

Highlighted comment: I was thinking of GM's Zeta platform and it's adjustable front rails

that allow increases in wheelbase and engine set back behind the front wheels.

 

With adjustable front rails you could have FWD ahd RWD versions of Falcon and Focus,

I find that an awesome concept and one which might enable Ford to move forward quickly.

Edited October 4, 2008 by jpd80

[dante hicks]

Yes the Porsche 911 Coupe's a fading market they don't make much money these days Ed your right tough times ahead, Porsche only made a very poor profit of $17 Billion dollars in 2007 the profits might be as little as $12 Billion dollars profit in 2008 they might have to put the takeover of the Volkswagon Motor Company on hold now? Yes your right RWD cars don't make any money Ed.

http://www.motorauthority.com/report-porsc...s-revenues.html

 

The bulk of Porsche's profits come from the Cayenne.

[Edstock]

With adjustable front rails you could have FWD ahd RWD versions of Falcon and Focus,

I find that an awesome concept and one which might enable Ford to move forward quickly.

Yes indeed, thank-you. I did not know about that Zeta capability. It will be interesting to see if Ford engineers do something similar, anything to keep from having to recess the firewall to get enough engine set-back.