[Furious1Auto]

Pioneer, on Aug 28 2007, 09:52 PM, said:

Fusion sales were below 10,000 last month. Of course they will be higher next month. There is nowhere to go but up.

I guess the same could be said for the Tundra! If you sell 0 one month, then 1 the next month then I guess the would be an increase! As for Toyota making money on every sale, how can they be their paying people to take them! The fact is that people who buy the Tundra as a work truck will find that it is inferior in the long run, nor will perform as well as a Ford!

This post has been edited by Furious1Auto: 29 August 2007 - 03:37 AM

[mettech]

Never thought I would see the day when UAW members would support a car(Fusion) that isn't made by USA workers over vehicles (Tundra, Accord, Camry) that are made by workers here in our country. :hysterical:

It appears to me that Accord, Camry and Tundra sales support more USA workers and pays more USA taxes than the Fusion does.

Fact or Opinion? :hysterical:

[Michael Reynolds]

Pioneer, on Aug 28 2007, 10:15 PM, said:

You have all the documentation at your fingertips. Look up the sales numbers.

Those sales numbers can be looked at in various ways. You don't just look at sales numbers and contrive that, there are so many factors that contribute to the overall suceess or non-sucess of 'x' vehicle.

Quote

Never thought I would see the day when UAW members would support a car(Fusion) that isn't made by USA workers over vehicles (Tundra, Accord, Camry) that are made by workers here in our country

Well why should they? It's not like the Tundra, Accord or Camry are made by UAW employees.

[Furious1Auto]

mettech, on Aug 29 2007, 07:36 AM, said:

Never thought I would see the day when UAW members would support a car(Fusion) that isn't made by USA workers over vehicles (Tundra, Accord, Camry) that are made by workers here in our country. :hysterical:

It appears to me that Accord, Camry and Tundra sales support more USA workers and pays more USA taxes than the Fusion does.

Fact or Opinion? :hysterical:

Opinion, The Fusion is built with 74% U.S. built parts, the Edge is built with 95% U.S. built parts. The fact that finally assembly is done in another country does not demonstrate that it doesn't employ more Americans! Also the profit from imports goes to Japan for their executives to spend their! More than half of the imports sold here are imported and nearly all of their parts also! Your just attempting to justify buying an import, as if it doesn't affect Our economy! Yes I would like to see it built here but that is beyond my control! The Fusion is still a great car and I have not had 1 mechanical issue since owning mine!

This post has been edited by Furious1Auto: 30 August 2007 - 01:38 AM

[toyboxrv]

mettech, on Aug 29 2007, 05:36 AM, said:

Never thought I would see the day when UAW members would support a car(Fusion) that isn't made by USA workers over vehicles (Tundra, Accord, Camry) that are made by workers here in our country. :hysterical:

It appears to me that Accord, Camry and Tundra sales support more USA workers and pays more USA taxes than the Fusion does.

Fact or Opinion? :hysterical:

Strictly opinion. Try taking into consideration the other componenets that may be made in the US and the engineering and design done here as well.

[FordBuyer]

Furious1Auto, on Aug 29 2007, 12:44 PM, said:

Opinion, The Fusion is built with 74% U.S. built parts, the Edge is built with 95% U.S. built parts. The fact that finally assembly is done in another country does not demonstrate that it employs more Americans! Also the profit from imports goes to Japan for their executives to spend their! More than half of the imports sold here are imported and nearly all of their parts also! Your just attempting to justify buying an import, as if it doesn't affect Our economy! Yes I would like to see it built here but that is beyond my control! The Fusion is still a great car and I have not had 1 mechanical issue since owning mine!

Toyota has been very successful at draping itself in American flag and convincing us they are as American as apple pie. I really believe more than 50% of Americans fall for the propaganda. Even our Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi thinks that Ford and GM are pariahs and Honda and Toyota are America's saviours while they protect their home market with a vengeance and try to dominate the rest of the world. Hell, now Toyota is even bankrolling the U.S. Olympic Team. Now weird is that. I'm a model train hobbyist and biggest train show in America is at York, PA and this building we display at is called the Toyota Arena. They have become synonomous with America as Ford and GM have to bail out of sponsorship because of cost, Toyota just picks up the slack with its deep pockets and has us all convinced it's just another American company. Obviously, many Americans have bought into it and are very loyal to Toyota and will buy nothing else no matter what Ford and GM do.

[mettech]

toyboxrv, on Aug 29 2007, 01:06 PM, said:

Strictly opinion. Try taking into consideration the other components that may be made in the US and the engineering and design done here as well.

Bingo.

Many here would rather keep their head in the sand and make believe that everything from the Big 3 is the only product that is American made. :ohsnap: Additionally, many more would like to ban outside competition and limit the USA consumer's choices.

Again,...... what is the % of American components on the Accord, Camry, Tundra? Just how many USA workers do they employ to include components? :reading:

The answer is surprising isn't it. :shades:

[NickF1011]

mettech, on Aug 29 2007, 05:13 PM, said:

Bingo.

Many here would rather keep their head in the sand and make believe that everything from the Big 3 is the only product that is American made. :ohsnap: Additionally, many more would like to ban outside competition and limit the USA consumer's choices.

Again,...... what is the % of American components on the Accord, Camry, Tundra? Just how many USA workers do they employ to include components? :reading:

The answer is surprising isn't it. :shades:

Not that surprising. Can't find individual breakdowns, but Toyota and Honda are FAR behind GM and Ford in overall domestic content.

http://www.levelfiel...rg/domestic.htm

The Japanese also use the neat trick of importing sub-assemblies and building them here, which takes advantage of a loophole in the domestic content rating system. If Part A and B are built in Japan and they are shipped here to create Part AB, that part suddenly becomes "domestic content". Magic!!

[mettech]

It is expected that GM, and Ford will have a higher overall American content %.

My question was about the main stream vehicles: Camry, Accord and Tundra.

The % of raw components made in America for the Fusion is near what it is for the Camry and Accord.

Here's another example:

Mom, Apple Pie and...Toyota?
Ford Says It's Patriotic to Buy
A Mustang, but Sienna Is Made
In Indiana With More U.S. Parts
By JATHON SAPSFORD and NORIHIKO SHIROUZU
May 11, 2006

Few sports cars have captured the nation's imagination like the sleek Ford Mustang, a 21st-century reincarnation of an American classic. The Toyota Sienna minivan, by contrast, speaks to the utilitarian aesthetics of Japan: refined interiors, arm rests and lots and lots of cup holders.

Yet, by a crucial measure, the Sienna is far more American than the Mustang. Statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that were publicized in "Auto Industry Update: 2006," a presentation by Farmington Hills, Mich., research company CSM Worldwide, show only 65% of the content of a Ford Mustang comes from the U.S. or Canada. Ford Motor Co. buys the rest of the Mustang's parts abroad. By contrast, the Sienna, sold by Japan's Toyota Motor Corp., is assembled in Indiana with 90% local components......

Rest of the article: Sienna uses more American made parts than the Mustang


The old way of looking at the issue is changing. :shades:

This post has been edited by mettech: 30 August 2007 - 08:18 AM

[goingincirclez]

Here's my take on the "Is Foreign the new American?" subject.

Take the Ford Motor Company. Within it you have the following entities: Ford North America; Ford of Europe; Ford of Australia; Ford of Brazil (or is that South America?); and Ford of Thailand or Asia or whatever.

Each of those entities has a multitude of divisions tasked with serving their respective markets AND the parent company as a whole. All the myriad day-to-day automotive business issues, related to aspects like brands, nameplates, engineering, marketing, manufacturing, sales, platforms, packaging, payroll, HR, taxes, lobbying, etc etc etc etc, are all done for those respective markets. Those individual "Ford of X" entities may or may not be autonomous as it relates to any one aspect. The "Ford of X" entities may or may not cooperate and collaborate on larger issues. They may or may not share resources.

But at the end of the day at any given Ford dealership, be it in Chicago, London, Perth, Sao Palo or Bangkok... once the receipts are counted and the taxes and workers paid and the reports filed and the product plans checked and approved... the currency exchanged through the day ultimately flows back to one master domain, resposible for "Ford of All". And for better or worse, that is here in the USA.

Toyota is no different. Technically over here, they are "Toyota Motor Manufacturing, USA, Inc." Sounds like a spin on "Ford of Europe" doesn't it? Drive to a supplier park, and it's all the same: "JapaMituToyoBitsuNishonSoup of America." Go overseas and the suffix is likely "Of Europe" or what have you.

And at the end of the day, when all is said and done, the money trail leads back to the home base of Japan.

This is not inherently bad or good.... it just is what it is.

But for my dollar, no car marketed or sold by a parent company not incorporated in the USA, will ever be considered "American".

Of course, it still isn't always that cut and dry. But that accounts for a good swath of it.



~~~~~~~~~~

Ford of Europe is an interesting parallel, as it relates to home market perception. Haven't some of the UK guys here, stated that FoE is truly regarded as a "home (UK)" brand? Couldn't be the absolute truth, not when Ford NA ultimately gets to pull the strings.

TMM, USA could well be like Japan's own "FoE" in some ways.

This post has been edited by goingincirclez: 29 August 2007 - 09:44 PM

[rmc523]

mettech, on Aug 29 2007, 09:56 PM, said:

It is expected that GM, and Ford will have a higher overall American content 5.

My question was about the main stream vehicles: Camry, Accord and Tundra.

The % of raw components made in America for the Fusion is near what it is for the Camry and Accord.

Here's another example:

Mom, Apple Pie and...Toyota?
Ford Says It's Patriotic to Buy
A Mustang, but Sienna Is Made
In Indiana With More U.S. Parts
By JATHON SAPSFORD and NORIHIKO SHIROUZU
May 11, 2006

Few sports cars have captured the nation's imagination like the sleek Ford Mustang, a 21st-century reincarnation of an American classic. The Toyota Sienna minivan, by contrast, speaks to the utilitarian aesthetics of Japan: refined interiors, arm rests and lots and lots of cup holders.

Yet, by a crucial measure, the Sienna is far more American than the Mustang. Statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that were publicized in "Auto Industry Update: 2006," a presentation by Farmington Hills, Mich., research company CSM Worldwide, show only 65% of the content of a Ford Mustang comes from the U.S. or Canada. Ford Motor Co. buys the rest of the Mustang's parts abroad. By contrast, the Sienna, sold by Japan's Toyota Motor Corp., is assembled in Indiana with 90% local components......

Rest of the article: Sienna uses more American made parts than the Mustang
The old way of looking at the issue is changing. :shades:

To me and most others on this forum (I would assume), Ford=American; Toyota=Japanese

I don't care if the Camry had 100% American content, the $$$ made off those Toyota sales still goes back to Japan, while Ford sales $$$ go back to Dearborn. While Toyota may employ thousands of Americans, those workers still work for a Japanese company.

Go http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/used-police-cars/ford-emblem.jpg!!!

This post has been edited by rmc523: 29 August 2007 - 09:43 PM

[Furious1Auto]

goingincirclez, on Aug 29 2007, 10:39 PM, said:

Here's my take on the "Is Foreign the new American?" subject.

Take the Ford Motor Company. Within it you have the following entities: Ford North America; Ford of Europe; Ford of Australia; Ford of Brazil (or is that South America?); and Ford of Thailand or Asia or whatever.

Each of those entities has a multitude of divisions tasked with serving their respective markets AND the parent company as a whole. All the myriad day-to-day automotive business issues, related to aspects like brands, nameplates, engineering, marketing, manufacturing, sales, platforms, packaging, payroll, HR, taxes, lobbying, etc etc etc etc, are all done for those respective markets. Those individual "Ford of X" entities may or may not be autonomous as it relates to any one aspect. The "Ford of X" entities may or may not cooperate and collaborate on larger issues. They may or may not share resources.

But at the end of the day at any given Ford dealership, be it in Chicago, London, Perth, Sao Palo or Bangkok... once the receipts are counted and the taxes and workers paid and the reports filed and the product plans checked and approved... the currency exchanged through the day ultimately flows back to one master domain, resposible for "Ford of All". And for better or worse, that is here in the USA.

Toyota is no different. Technically over here, they are "Toyota Motor Manufacturing, USA, Inc." Sounds like a spin on "Ford of Europe" doesn't it? Drive to a supplier park, and it's all the same: "JapaMituToyoBitsuNishonSoup of America." Go overseas and the suffix is likely "Of Europe" or what have you.

And at the end of the day, when all is said and done, the money trail leads back to the home base of Japan.

This is not inherently bad or good.... it just is what it is.

But for my dollar, no car marketed or sold by a parent company not incorporated in the USA, will ever be considered "American".

Of course, it still isn't always that cut and dry. But that accounts for a good swath of it.
~~~~~~~~~~

Ford of Europe is an interesting parallel, as it relates to home market perception. Haven't some of the UK guys here, stated that FoE is truly regarded as a "home (UK)" brand? Couldn't be the absolute truth, not when Ford NA ultimately gets to pull the strings.

TMM, USA could well be like Japan's own "FoE" in some ways.

Well said, so this means what? Toyota took $13,000,000,000 of our American dollars last year, and the vacuum will continue until we put a stop to it! be it through legislation or what ever channels! The American public is to stupid to fix the problem by controlling it with their spending! They don't even know that their being duped! Why is it not pissing them off to know that it costs them more to drive a vehicle that is cheaper to build! If I where a Toyota lover than I would demand lower pricing or they could keep car!

[sonofford]

Furious1Auto, on Aug 30 2007, 02:56 AM, said:

Well said, so this means what? Toyota took $13,000,000,000 of our American dollars last year, and the vacuum will continue until we put a stop to it! be it through legislation or what ever channels! The American public is to stupid to fix the problem by controlling it with their spending! They don't even know that their being duped! Why is it not pissing them off to know that it costs them more to drive a vehicle that is cheaper to build! If I where a Toyota lover than I would demand lower pricing or they could keep car!

You make it sound like there is some kind of grand larceny taking place. There isn't. When Ford of Europe builds and sells products that European consumers want --and apparently they do--that money isn't "taken" from Europeans and brought here. It's earned in a competitive market. Toyota didn't "take" a dime from this country. They earned it by building and selling products the American consumer clearly wants. It's pretty condescending to say that Americans are being "duped" by Toyota (or Honda, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz, all of whom operate plants here). People are doing what they are supposed to do in a free market: spending their dollars where and how they see fit.

The only way to stop the vacuum, as you call it, is for US-based automakers to make products that consistently surpass the offerings of the competition. Until that happens, nothing will change. Legislation to limit or prevent foreign makers from manufacturing or selling products here would be the worst possible solution and would hurt US consumers far more than it would help.

[mettech]

sonofford, on Aug 30 2007, 08:10 AM, said:

You make it sound like there is some kind of grand larceny taking place. There isn't. When Ford of Europe builds and sells products that European consumers want --and apparently they do--that money isn't "taken" from Europeans and brought here. It's earned in a competitive market. Toyota didn't "take" a dime from this country. They earned it by building and selling products the American consumer clearly wants. It's pretty condescending to say that Americans are being "duped" by Toyota (or Honda, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz, all of whom operate plants here). People are doing what they are supposed to do in a free market: spending their dollars where and how they see fit.

The only way to stop the vacuum, as you call it, is for US-based automakers to make products that consistently surpass the offerings of the competition. Until that happens, nothing will change. Legislation to limit or prevent foreign makers from manufacturing or selling products here would be the worst possible solution and would hurt US consumers far more than it would help.

Exactly!!

Unfortunately, emotions and desire overshadow business sense and logic.

[TomServo92]

Isn't Toyota stock traded on the NYSE? If so, then there are plenty of US stockholders who benefit from the profits as well the Japanese.

As to the whole "patriotic" question: I buy the brand of vehicles based on my experiences. Fords have served me well over the years and while they may not be "class leading", I've been very pleased with every purchase. It really has nothing to do with a US vs. foreign preference. Maybe I'm just being pragmatic, but I don't see a reason to look at another brand at this point.

[ANTAUS]

If people would have followed my advice, back in WW2, or whenever we bombed Japan, and still have owned them, things would have been different. I say if we conquer a country, we should at least keep it and build resoirts or make it a commonwealth or something...Geesh...

[Michael Reynolds]

Talk about :beatdeadhorse: over and over again.

Each side of this argument has valid pros and cons, pawning one off as the true and clear decisive answer doesn't really do this argument justice.

What I still find amusing is the constant debate regarding where an automobile is made, but goods and services that are no longer produced/based in the U.S. basically go un noticed.

This post has been edited by Michael Reynolds: 30 August 2007 - 09:04 AM

[NickF1011]

mettech, on Aug 29 2007, 09:56 PM, said:

Few sports cars have captured the nation's imagination like the sleek Ford Mustang, a 21st-century reincarnation of an American classic. The Toyota Sienna minivan, by contrast, speaks to the utilitarian aesthetics of Japan: refined interiors, arm rests and lots and lots of cup holders.

Yet, by a crucial measure, the Sienna is far more American than the Mustang. Statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that were publicized in "Auto Industry Update: 2006," a presentation by Farmington Hills, Mich., research company CSM Worldwide, show only 65% of the content of a Ford Mustang comes from the U.S. or Canada. Ford Motor Co. buys the rest of the Mustang's parts abroad. By contrast, the Sienna, sold by Japan's Toyota Motor Corp., is assembled in Indiana with 90% local components......

Rest of the article: Sienna uses more American made parts than the Mustang


The old way of looking at the issue is changing. :shades:

Very odd. The GT500 and Shelby GTs I saw in a dealer showroom were somewhere around 94% US/Canada content. The V6's I suppose are significantly lower since the Cologne V6 is imported. Mustang's domestic part content should skyrocket again once the 4.0 is replaced. It was over 90% when it was still using the 3.8.

[Furious1Auto]

sonofford, on Aug 30 2007, 08:10 AM, said:

You make it sound like there is some kind of grand larceny taking place. There isn't. When Ford of Europe builds and sells products that European consumers want --and apparently they do--that money isn't "taken" from Europeans and brought here. It's earned in a competitive market. Toyota didn't "take" a dime from this country. They earned it by building and selling products the American consumer clearly wants. It's pretty condescending to say that Americans are being "duped" by Toyota (or Honda, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz, all of whom operate plants here). People are doing what they are supposed to do in a free market: spending their dollars where and how they see fit.

The only way to stop the vacuum, as you call it, is for US-based automakers to make products that consistently surpass the offerings of the competition. Until that happens, nothing will change. Legislation to limit or prevent foreign makers from manufacturing or selling products here would be the worst possible solution and would hurt US consumers far more than it would help.

I can't argue with this statement! I only build them and do my best to insure that the public gets what they pay for! The big problem is the economic effect imported goods are having on our labor market, and standard of living!

This post has been edited by Furious1Auto: 31 August 2007 - 02:28 AM

[jordan23]

I agree you, the stock will sit low.