Harley Lover Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I can't provide a link because it's a subscription article, but AN quotes Derrick Kuzak as saying there will be two turbochargers on four-cylinder, V-6 and V-8 gasoline engines. I didn't recall reading about such a broad application of the "Twinforce" approach, so thought it might prove newsworthy. He also confirmed that Twin-force engines will use gasoline direct injection. Finally, the article quoted him as saying that Ford plans what they are calling a 'power shift' transmission (which the article describes as a manumatic), and variable displacement V-8 engines. Again, I don't recall someone at his level confirming what has been rumored. If this is all a repeat, please delete the post, MOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonL Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 I can't provide a link because it's a subscription article, but AN quotes Derrick Kuzak as saying there will be two turbochargers on four-cylinder, V-6 and V-8 gasoline engines. I didn't recall reading about such a broad application of the "Twinforce" approach, so thought it might prove newsworthy. He also confirmed that Twin-force engines will use gasoline direct injection. Finally, the article quoted him as saying that Ford plans what they are calling a 'power shift' transmission (which the article describes as a manumatic), and variable displacement V-8 engines. Again, I don't recall someone at his level confirming what has been rumored. If this is all a repeat, please delete the post, MOD. Blue II has mentioned a 2.5 GTTDI for an upcoming fusion and the 3.5 GTTDI has been seen in the MKR concept and has had alot of discussion about it. Blue II has also mentioned a 5.0 V-8 GTTDI whether a mod or new Hurricane. This however would seem to be the first official mention from a Ford source. Thanks for the heads up I will have to go check out the library and see what it has to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Powershift is Ford's DSG! YES THANK YOU DERRICK!! And Holy light TF of I4s, V6s and V8s!? Wtf are they planning to do? make racing cars again Great find, thanks man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonL Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 (edited) Powershift is Ford's DSG! YES THANK YOU DERRICK!! And Holy light TF of I4s, V6s and V8s!? Wtf are they planning to do? make racing cars again Great find, thanks man! Not really a whole lot of new information but this article has some stuff about the twin-Force and DSG in it from Kuzak. http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/29/live-fr...08-model-previ/ Edited June 30, 2007 by DonL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Ford: 2-turbo engine will save fuel Richard Truett Automotive News June 29, 2007 - 2:59 pm DETROIT-- Ford Motor Co. plans to boost fuel economy by rolling out what it calls "twin-force" technology: Two turbochargers on four-cylinder V-6 and V-8 gasoline engines. Derrick Kuzak, group vice president for global product development, said the technology will deliver diesel-like fuel economy. Diesels offer a 25 to 30 percent gain in fuel economy compared with gasoline engines of the same size. The first vehicle to use the twin-force technology is the upcoming Lincoln MKS flagship sedan due in 2008. Twin-force engines also will use gasoline direct injection, which increases power, Kuzak said at a press event here. He said Ford also plans what it calls its power shift transmission, a six-speed automatic that combines features of a manual with an automatic, and variable displacement V-8 engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford-150 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 what!!!! is this performance from Ford? or is these just going to be detuned twin turbo engines that are going to be for fuel economy? (sorry for being negative in the second question, it just sounds to good to be true) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Drummond Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Caterham Seven with a twin-force 4 cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 what!!!! is this performance from Ford? or is these just going to be detuned twin turbo engines that are going to be for fuel economy? (sorry for being negative in the second question, it just sounds to good to be true) It will be tuned for economy first BUT any TT motor is a performance motor at heart. Its a chip away from jollies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue II Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Blue II has mentioned a 2.5 GTTDI for an upcoming fusion and the 3.5 GTTDI has been seen in the MKR concept and has had alot of discussion about it. Blue II has also mentioned a 5.0 V-8 GTTDI whether a mod or new Hurricane. This however would seem to be the first official mention from a Ford source. Thanks for the heads up I will have to go check out the library and see what it has to say. Smoked him out didn't we. Now all we need is official word on the D37. My D37 posts were deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 actually Blue II mentioned another TF engine: 6.2l GTTDI V8 - with the torque of the Power Stroke. - that engine is to come in 2011. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 But the question is, are we going to need Premium gas in the TF applications? Kinda kills the whole fuel economy argument I can serious see getting a TF 2.5L I4 with a powershift transmission in a Fusion as my next car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Smoked him out didn't we. Now all we need is official word on the D37. My D37 posts were deleted. So it's not just me that's been noticing posts disappear... Is it censorship or a problem with the board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Will they "require" high octane? Probably not. But I'll bet they are building them with E85 in mind. And with the super high octane of ethanol, I'll bet they'll be pushing out a lot more HP AND MPG with it than 87 octane will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford-150 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Smoked him out didn't we. Now all we need is official word on the D37. My D37 posts were deleted. yeah i noticed some of my posts were deleted!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford-150 Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 actually Blue II mentioned another TF engine: 6.2l GTTDI V8 - with the torque of the Power Stroke. - that engine is to come in 2011. Igor :banvictory: :bandance: :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Now just for clarity, how can a Turbocharged engine allow a vehicle to give diesel like fuel efficiency of about 25-30%? I mean, I do see possible being able to have a 2.5L making 3.5L-4.0L power with the use of Turbo's, but what other technology will have to be implemented to allow for such claimed fuel efficiency ? Is the Dual Shift transmission a big factor in this equation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Now just for clarity, how can a Turbocharged engine allow a vehicle to give diesel like fuel efficiency of about 25-30%? I mean, I do see possible being able to have a 2.5L making 3.5L-4.0L power with the use of Turbo's, but what other technology will have to be implemented to allow for such claimed fuel efficiency ? Is the Dual Shift transmission a big factor in this equation? If the turbo is tuned for more low-end power, you won't need to rev the engine to move, therefore less fuel used. The TF will come with DI which is supposed to raise the FE of the engine. Offcourse the DSG will help increase the FE as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Will they "require" high octane? Probably not. But I'll bet they are building them with E85 in mind. And with the super high octane of ethanol, I'll bet they'll be pushing out a lot more HP AND MPG with it than 87 octane will. Go back to Chemistry 101 and Thermodynamics. A kilogram of ethanol has less energy than a kilogram of gasoline. There is no free lunch ! (BTW, a kilogram of each takes about the amount of volume (gallons), engineers use "mass" when speaking of energy density.) While ethanol will resist pre-ignition (detonation) at higher compression and more spark advance, it does so at a great sacrifice to fuel economy ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Ford: 2-turbo engine will save fuelRichard Truett Automotive News June 29, 2007 - 2:59 pm DETROIT-- Ford Motor Co. plans to boost fuel economy by rolling out what it calls "twin-force" technology: Two turbochargers on four-cylinder V-6 and V-8 gasoline engines. Personally, I think Kuzak is being mis-quoted here. I can not imagine why 2 turbo would be required on a I-4. Many engineers still at Ford think the 2 turbos on the MKS is an extravagant waste of money. The benefits don't outway the costs. "Twin Force" does make a good marketing line :banana piano: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Personally, I think Kuzak is being mis-quoted here. I can not imagine why 2 turbo would be required on a I-4. Many engineers still at Ford think the 2 turbos on the MKS is an extravagant waste of money. The benefits don't outway the costs. "Twin Force" does make a good marketing line :banana piano: With the advent of twin scroll turbos, the need for expensive dual turbos is not there. Especially if you use the even cheaper to produce I5s and I6s that FoE and FoA use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 2 turbos are ridiculous on a 4-cylinder engine. The whole turbo mindset is a numbingly frustrating cheapo answer to fuel economy, in lieu of quality diesel premium options. Turbo is a marketing name, and gives the magazines/reviewers the ability to say a car can go to 60/accelerate quickly, if stomped on. Turbos won't be optimized for "low RPM" power, it's just power available if stomped on to compensate for the smaller displacement motor. They will be maintenance nightmares if placed in lower-end small cars driven by teenagers/youth, and will create the continued NA perception that Ford cannot make a reliable/quality product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 It could be that twin turbos would allow for one to kick in at lower RPM, and have the other Turbo kick on higher up to avoid the Turbo lag? Now being there's a new JV 6 Speed transmission...how does that play out with DSG ? Considering the transmission was just born not too long ago ? Will the JV just be dropped, or used in a product or 2, or will DSG just replace it? It seems these turbo engines will produce more power than what the JV transmission can sustain ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 (edited) 1) Turbos do not necessarily equate to reliability nightmares (they've been used in severe service on heavy trucks for years); do not confuse poorly built domestic turbos of the 80s with the state of the art. 2) Turbos are still less expensive than diesels and 50 state legal. Expense for diesel manufacture is not limited to after-treatment bolt-ons; actual engine assembly is more expensive (you can read up on the clean-room environment at Ford Dagenham here) 3) Turbos can be tuned for low end torque delivery. In fact, combining turbos with DI engines provides much better low end torque 4) I believe the DSG setup is for higher torque engines. IIRC the JV transmission can't handle much past 300lb ft. Edited July 1, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 DSG seems to be developed for high HP engines that the JV cannot be mated to. Like the TF engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 2 turbos are ridiculous on a 4-cylinder engine. Not necessarily. The twin-scroll turbo is 2-stage turbocharging in one unit, which further simplifies plumbing. Add the functional advantage of just 1 cylinder head, 1 set of camshafts, not 2, 1 exhaust path, not 2. Factor in smaller powerplant space requirements, and a turbo 2.3-2.5 might have all sorts of cost-effective applications, like Focus and truck-tuned, for Ranger or Transit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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