JLaudioF150 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 There's this wonderful term in economics called "effective demand". It's not a measure of demand for your product, it's a measure of demand among those that can afford it. The Camaro (like the Toyota Celica and Supra) were quite popular with people that by and large could not afford both the insurance and the payments. It's a fact that the Mustang historically sold to a far higher percentage of women than the GM pony-cars; furthermore, that higher percentage of women broadened the customer base of the Mustang. While it's true that it's "chick-car" nature did put off some potential buyers, it's also true that the "chick-car" Mustang drew in more buyers than it alienated. ... I know what you are saying. You're right. I just think that many GM lovers actually swallowed their pride and bought the only pony car available. Pretty much, if you wanted a coupe with a V8 you HAD to go to Ford (well also that GTO Cavalier car). Now there will be a choice. I graduated from college 1 year ago and I remember some of my friends (girls) telling me that they wouldn't consider buying a Mustang just because everyone had one. As to your first statement, I clearly remember seeing hot girls driving Trans Ams and SS Camaros at my university. Why? Good ol' Daddy would NEVER allow a V6 parked in his driveway and MUCH LESS allow his daughter to be seen in anything less than the 'best offered' (AKA RAM AIR and SS). I can honestly say I saw as many SS and Trans Am WS-6s as Mustangs (GT and V6s combined). A bit off topic (I always get off topic :P ) What will the Mustang be like by 2009? Will a larger engine be offered? A redesign? It will be interesting to see what happens if gas hits $3/gallon again... Maybe instead of a new Camaro, we get the infamous Chevette. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrballsonya Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I like the styling better than the mustangs. I think they did a pretty good job with this retro re-do. You still can tell it's based on the original yet I think it's a much edgier design than the Mustangs. Give it the chevy pushrod v8 muscle and the base model a strong V6 and I think GM could sell at least 125,000 a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I know what you are saying. You're right. I just think that many GM lovers actually swallowed their pride and bought the only pony car available. Pretty much, if you wanted a coupe with a V8 you HAD to go to Ford (well also that GTO Cavalier car). Now there will be a choice. I mean the Ford outlasted the F-Body too, not that sales have gone to Ford from depressed Chevy and Pontiac faithful. Besides you pointed something out. Hot girls a couple years ago driving used or hand-me-down Pontiacs and Chevys. Not quite good enough........ ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 The NMRA, numerous men, and all the Stang mags have no problem with women owning some Mustangs. So what? And who is to say that 1994 will happen again with the F bod having more HP? So many simply think this will be the case, when the ''new'' Camaro is not even in production! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bifs66 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 IMO, the instrument cluster is uglier than the original Camaros. It was a bad example to follow. I always faulted Ford for directly copying the early Camaro instrumentation for the 71-73 Mustangs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLaudioF150 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I mean the Ford outlasted the F-Body too, not that sales have gone to Ford from depressed Chevy and Pontiac faithful. Besides you pointed something out. Hot girls a couple years ago driving used or hand-me-down Pontiacs and Chevys. Not quite good enough........ ... That's just stupid. What do you mean hand me downs? If a hot girl was driving a 2002 Camaro SS...in 2002 how can that be a hand-me-down? I DO SEE a lot of women driving 94-99 Mustangs now...your point? But then again, that is why the Lincoln Navigator is 'better' than the Caddy Escalade because the people who drive them makes the difference. 'Cause you know, Black people drive Caddies :rolleyes: Just because the previous FBodies didn't outlast the Mustang doesn't mean the 'new' Camaro won't compete well enough. In fact, a more spacious back seat than the previous model could make all the difference. As for why I think the Mustang will need more power to compete...well because CHEVY seems to outmuscle Ford when it comes to Hp every time. Anyone wan't to bet that the $25K z28 will come with a 340 hp 5.3L version, a 400hp 6.0L version, and a 500+ hp 6.2L version to top it off. Disagree? Those bowtie boys have many tricks up their sleeves! Remember the big surprise when the 275hp 5.7L Camaros were tearing up those 215hp 4.6L GTs waaay back in 1994?! To top it off, they also get 25 mpg on them! History will repeat itself. I have to give it to GM. They like throwing big muscle to their cars. Period. Hell, they may even pack big v8 muscle to that little Solstice. Bye Bye Miata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 That's just stupid. What do you mean hand me downs? If a hot girl was driving a 2002 Camaro SS...in 2002 how can that be a hand-me-down? I DO SEE a lot of women driving 94-99 Mustangs now...your point? But then again, that is why the Lincoln Navigator is 'better' than the Caddy Escalade because the people who drive them makes the difference. 'Cause you know, Black people drive Caddies :rolleyes: A thousand pardons. You said you graduated last year... That puts your freshman year in college (assuming you were a 4-year student) in fall of 2001; which means that your freshman year in college would've been the last year of F-Body production. Any F-Body you saw after that could only be a used F-Body. Also, the higher number of women purchasing Mustangs is a statistical reality. That, at least, is not anecdotal evidence. My own musings about the kind of women that like those ghastly 90s F-Body Camaros are strictly my own, and hardly intended to be taken seriously. But anyway, it's not as though more women buyers makes the Mustang a "better" car, but it goes a long way toward explaining why the Mustang's sales consistently outpaced the Camaro's, and often the combined F-Body production during the '90s. That despite the power advantage enjoyed by the F-Bodies. The Mustang simply had a broader appeal, and appealed to more people in a position to afford it. You look at the Toyota Celica, then you look at the Ford Mustang; not entirely dissimilar products: one a huge succcess, the other a titanic failure. Why? Because the Mustang has greater appeal to the people who can actually afford it. And that's what happened to GM: They got so caught up trying to cater to their base that they alienated a lot of MOR buyers. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 What will the Mustang be like by 2009? Will a larger engine be offered? A redesign? It will be interesting to see what happens if gas hits $3/gallon again.. Ford doesnt need a bigger engine, the top of the line one in the mustang already outpowers the possible engines of the challenger and camaro. The Camaro is still hampered/helped by the vette which means it wont go above the 400hp mark. The 6.1L Hemi is sitting at 425hp right now, possibly 450-475ish when the car actually gets produced. With the 5.4 in the GT500 sitting at what looks like 475 I dont see the problem. Obviously Ford will fill in the gaps between 300 and 475 over the next few years. What Ford needs to work on is the total package and the mustangs refresh. It needs to lose weight and get some freakings HID's for gods sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 When I got out of the service in 1984, I went to a local community college to brush up on math and physics. Anyhow, I was shocked at how many IROC-Z's and Firebird Formula's were in the lot. Also a lot of Monte-SS's. About 75% of these cars were driven by girls. Turns out that most were bought by dad as a bribe to get the girls to go to school. Not many Stangs, (this is a GM town, so dad was most likely employed by GM). Most of the Stangs in the lot were ether old ones, (like my 67) or new 4cyl ones. The few new GT's were all driven by guys. None of this means anything though. What killed the last Camaro/Firebird, was price. They were just too expensive to draw anyone away from the Stang which was 2K cheaper. The exception was the guy that had to have maximum performance. He would pay the premium. If GM wants to be succesful this time, they should build a 400+ HP version, but not at the expense of everything else. Use the Mustang as the target for features and pricing. I do think they'll have to tone this one down just a bit. Keep the styling more true to the 67-69 Camaro/Bird. As the sedan market morphs more and more toward cloning the Camery/Accord, I think the pony car market share will increase as folks look for something different. Most likely as a second car parked next to the CamCord clone in the driveway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 Pony Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 That's just stupid. What do you mean hand me downs? If a hot girl was driving a 2002 Camaro SS...in 2002 how can that be a hand-me-down? I DO SEE a lot of women driving 94-99 Mustangs now...your point? But then again, that is why the Lincoln Navigator is 'better' than the Caddy Escalade because the people who drive them makes the difference. 'Cause you know, Black people drive Caddies :rolleyes: Just because the previous FBodies didn't outlast the Mustang doesn't mean the 'new' Camaro won't compete well enough. In fact, a more spacious back seat than the previous model could make all the difference. I think he raised a good point. Camaro (moreso than Firebird) had the reputation of being a blue-collar Bubba Joe car what eventually ended up on blocks in front of someones mobile home. Mustang has had a more positive reputation because women like it. Hell, I know Japaneese chicks who have nixed buying a Jap car and buy a Mustang :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLaudioF150 Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I guess you guys are right. Apparently high Hp didn't keep the previous Camaros/Firebirds alive! I'm still glad Chevy will bring the Camaro back (hopefully) and Dodge will bring the Challenger. Ahhhh, it's the Pony wars all over again. (Not that I lived through the first one, but I've read about it.) Now, why hasn't Mercury dropped a Mustang-based Cougar on us yet :angry: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96 Pony Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I guess you guys are right. Apparently high Hp didn't keep the previous Camaros/Firebirds alive! I'm still glad Chevy will bring the Camaro back (hopefully) and Dodge will bring the Challenger. Ahhhh, it's the Pony wars all over again. (Not that I lived through the first one, but I've read about it.) Now, why hasn't Mercury dropped a Mustang-based Cougar on us yet :angry: And THERE is the question of the moment. Where is the new Cougar? Or maybe they will bring it out in 2007? That's what happened when it was introduced in '67, two years after the Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 More adenoidal evidence from my part of the US. I live in Jersey and when the F-bodies where around in the 1990's when I first started driving, nearly every single one I saw had female driving them. Same with the Mustang. The reason for this was the insurance....When I got my 98 GT, I was paying 2400 a year with a perfect record, living at home with my parents. I tried calling around to find a cheaper rate, and I got estimates from other companies of 5-7K A YEAR! Of course women dont pay as much for insurance, and at rates that high, not many men bought F-bodies or Mustangs, thus prob adding to Ricer Revolution that started at the same time One futher thing about insurance, I'm waiting on my 06 GT replace my SVT Focus I got...and I'm 31 now, and my insurance is only going up 200 more a year....retarted huh? I hate this place at times.... Another story, when the Camaro went out of production, Staten Island declared a Day of Morning, since the IROC-Z was the Favorate of the Guidos that came from SI down the to Jersey Shore. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrgto Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Firebird and Trans Am have a negative connotation in the general publics mind. It screams mullets, Smokey and the Bandit and lousy cars. Those names are NOT coming back. GTO was a more hallowed name than either of them and the latest GTO, albeit blander styling, has been much better recieved as far as quality and luxury than the last of the F-bodies. A new Camaro and GTO built together with the GTO being more upscale will do wonders for GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 As far as people liking the Chalanger and Camaro styling better than the Mustang, remember the Mustang has been out a couple of years now and we saw it on the auto show circuit a year before that and the Mustang show car a year before that. I think the Mustang style, which is more conservative, will wear better than the other two cars. This is the way it was in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchdevil Posted January 12, 2006 Share Posted January 12, 2006 Wow... Chevy did a bang up job with this design.. It looks much better than the Challenger. It looks much more aggressive than the Mustang. The Camaro looks thousands of dollars more than it's recent predecessors and even the new Musatng. God knows I love the Mustang and this would not sway my loyalty from it. The test though is to see how the actual production Camaro with translate it's design. This new Camaro washes away the stereotypical images of the 80's and 90's The surface details are amazing on the Camaro. I don't see anything that needs changing unlike the Mustang concept and production versions that I always want to fine tune in my head. The Camaro takes the retro themes and putting modern surfacing and proportions to it. It's detailed in ways the Mustang is short on. What I realize is that the Mustang is a more muted slab sided design, perhaps oversimplified. I always want to change the front end and rear quarter details to something less blocky and more aggressive. Mustangs when they were redesigned in 1967 picked up more aggressive surface detailing. Since Ford does not change major body panels like the old days, it is going to have to rely on front and rear fascia changes for the next several years to keep it fresh and competitive. However, I would still like to own a Mustang in white with blue stripes just like my very first car... Well it's good there will be healthy competition again and that all of the pony car loyalists will have something to make them happy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebritt Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 I know this is gonna sound bad but Im gonna say it anyway. I will never buy another car brand new period. I am not a rich person and think that paying $400+/monthe for 5 and 6 years for a middle of the road car is ridiculous. Thats more than my house payment and my house is only a few years from bein "paid for". Ill stick too a 2-3 year old car for about half the price. Sorry <_< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
member12 Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Hey eveyone. I am new here. I am known as "member12" from GMinsidenews. Don't worry, I am not a GM nut, just a car nut. I think the new Camaro is pretty ugly. Traditionally, the Mustang has relied on V6 sales to outsell the Camaro. Not a difficult thing to do, as the Mustang has always been cheaper and much better looking. It will be interesting to see how the two V8s stack up, but I anticipate a sales failure to Chevrolet. You have to have a good looking car in this segment, and Ford offers that, GM doesn't. Who cares if the Camaro can outaccelerate the Mustang- it will be discontiued in a few short years anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianBoy Posted January 29, 2006 Share Posted January 29, 2006 Couldn't agree more. Looks really sharp and agressive and definitely way better than the Challenger concept. I don't think it would put too much of a dent in Mustang sales. This (and the Challenger) seem more polarizing than the Mustang, which has wider appeal. First Chev I've actually liked. Probably got the LS6 in er. Very nice. Need a Boss to blow it away. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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