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Guest Message by DevFuse

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3.0 Diesel test


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#1 OFFLINE   Stray Kat

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 07:13 AM

Man guys I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this one has me bummed out. I hope this is a software glitch but even at that this bad early press really hurts Fords fragile relationship with prospective diesel buyers.

Please watch if you have time and share your thoughts.

One more thing if GMs new inline 6 banger diesel is glitch free they could score a major coup against Ford Im afraid.

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#2 OFFLINE   blwnsmoke

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 08:28 AM

Fragile relationship with diesel buyers? Wtf??
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#3 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 08:38 AM

Other than the issue going downhill, that's about what I expected.  Slower than the EcoBoost engines, but better fuel economy.  The lack of HP in the diesel really hurts it in that test.

 

But still, maintaining 45 MPH up the IKE while towing 9k lbs is pretty impressive for a half ton truck, especially while only using a gallon of diesel every 5.4 miles.


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#4 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 08:50 AM

Yeah, pretty much what I expected. 250 hp only goes so far. This thing is solidly outgunned by the 3.5 and 5.0.

I saw another video comparing a new diesel 150 to a diesel 250 in a standing 0-60 test unloaded. It wasn't even close - the 6.7/6-spd bested the 3.0/10-spd by over 2 seconds even though it weighed a ton more.

Sure it gets better mpg, and I can see certain fleets wanting it for fuel commonality, but pitching this thing as a "premium" powertrain option for those who tow big trailers with high-trim F-150s is not going to work out so great once word gets out. It's going to take most buyers years to recoup the option premium via fuel savings. Unless you're really addicted to the diesel clatter sound or like the smell of diesel exhaust fumes, there's not much reason to pick this over a 3.5 or 5.0.

This thing really needed to be about 4.5L and 320 hp. Of course the fuel economy wouldn't have been as good...

Edited by Sevensecondsuv, 11 May 2018 - 08:53 AM.


#5 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:28 AM

It's a premium powertrain because there are folks out there who want one just because and they're willing to pay for it.



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#6 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:28 AM

Yeah, pretty much what I expected. 250 hp only goes so far. This thing is solidly outgunned by the 3.5 and 5.0.

I saw another video comparing a new diesel 150 to a diesel 250 in a standing 0-60 test unloaded. It wasn't even close - the 6.7/6-spd bested the 3.0/10-spd by over 2 seconds even though it weighed a ton more.

Sure it gets better mpg, and I can see certain fleets wanting it for fuel commonality, but pitching this thing as a "premium" powertrain option for those who tow big trailers with high-trim F-150s is not going to work out so great once word gets out. It's going to take most buyers years to recoup the option premium via fuel savings. Unless you're really addicted to the diesel clatter sound or like the smell of diesel exhaust fumes, there's not much reason to pick this over a 3.5 or 5.0.

This thing really needed to be about 4.5L and 320 hp. Of course the fuel economy wouldn't have been as good...

 

I would expect the Super Duty to spank the F150 in acceleration.  The SD has 200 more HP.  It has 80% more HP (and over 100% more torque) yet only weighs 30% more.  Do the math...

 

TFL Truck did the calculation and it came out to about 30k miles to break even on fuel costs for the 3.0L over the 3.5L EB (but I think they used premium for the 3.5L, so I would say closer to 50-60k miles if you never tow anything).  However, if you tow, I would expect those numbers to drop drastically, because the 3.0 should get considerably better fuel economy when loaded, as shown by the IKE test.  The 3.0L is only a $2400 option over the 3.5L ...it's not near the $9k option the 6.7L.

 

And really, if you aren't towing up the IKE every day, 240 HP and 400 and however many ft-lbs of torque is plenty for a half ton truck.  Remember the '99 Super Duty?  235 HP and 500 ft-lbs in a one ton dually.


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'99 Ford F150 XLT Regular Cab 4x4 5.4 - Sold @136k, then totaled by the new owner on the way to its new home :(
'96 Chevrolet Cavalier (wife's - she brought it into the marriage)
'86 Ford Bronco II XLT 4x4 5 Speed 2.9L - what a dog, and it cracked heads like no tomorrow. 150k+ on 4 engines


#7 OFFLINE   92merc

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:37 AM

I watched that video yesterday.  I'm suspecting the issue is more with the transmission.  It doesn't like holding back the weight and was shutting itself down.  That's why 10 minutes after it had time to cool off, it was fine again.  It happened when at max revs for quite some time.

 

To me it just smells more like a trans issue than the engine.  It could be something to protect the engine, but my bet is on trans tune.  It wasn't a temp overload though according to the dash.


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#8 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:37 AM

Remember the '99 Super Duty?  235 HP and 500 ft-lbs in a one ton dually.

Yeah, and that was class leading (or close to it) in it's day. It's not 1999 anymore. In 2018, 250 hp out of the top engine option in a full-size truck is bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Personally, I'm satisfied with the 145 hp 4.9L six in my F-250. But that's not indicative of new truck buyers in 2018.

Edited by Sevensecondsuv, 11 May 2018 - 09:38 AM.


#9 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:43 AM

Yeah, and that was class leading (or close to it) in it's day. It's not 1999 anymore. In 2018, 250 hp out of the top engine option in a full-size truck is bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Personally, I'm satisfied with the 145 hp 4.9L six in my F-250. But that's not indicative of new truck buyers in 2018.

 

I agree it's not 1999, but that was also a truck 2 classes larger than the F150.

 

And I wouldn't call it a knife when it has more torque than nearly every other engine out there.  Not to mention better fuel economy.

 

With that said, if I were buying an F150, it would have the 3.5L in it.  No doubt about it.


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#10 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:45 AM

With that said, if I were buying an F150, it would have the 3.5L in it.  No doubt about it.

 

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#11 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:05 AM

Personally I'd go for the 5.0, with the 2.7 being a close second. Now that the 10-spd is here it has mitigated the Coyote's sub 2000 rpm torque deficiency and most videos are showing the 5.0 neck and neck with the 3.5 in drag races (now someone is going to come along and say "but but but at 5000 feet the 3.5 walks away", which is true because any boosted motor is obviously going to have a huge advantage in thin air, but I'm a flat lander so it doesn't matter). Beyond that, the coyote just sounds soooooo good, especially at 6000 rpm!

If was going with an ecoboost, it'd be the 2.7 for a couple reasons. 1) it's better at the "eco" part than the bigger 3.5, and 2) I like that fact that it was a clean-sheet design with boost in mind from the beginning rather than an adaptation of the existing corporate aluminum open-deck V6 taurus engine.

To each their own though, fortunately Ford offers lots of options.
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#12 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:14 AM

Personally I'd go for the 5.0, with the 2.7 being a close second. Now that the 10-spd is here it has mitigated the Coyote's sub 2000 rpm torque deficiency and most videos are showing the 5.0 neck and neck with the 3.5 in drag races (now someone is going to come along and say "but but but at 5000 feet the 3.5 walks away", which is true because any boosted motor is obviously going to have a huge advantage in thin air, but I'm a flat lander so it doesn't matter). Beyond that, the coyote just sounds soooooo good, especially at 6000 rpm!

If was going with an ecoboost, it'd be the 2.7 for a couple reasons. 1) it's better at the "eco" part than the bigger 3.5, and 2) I like that fact that it was a clean-sheet design with boost in mind from the beginning rather than an adaptation of the existing corporate aluminum open-deck V6 taurus engine.

To each their own though, fortunately Ford offers lots of options.

 

The current 3.5L is a new engine.  It only shares displacement with the original 3.5L (which was designed with turbo charging in mind as well).  The current 3.5L is built to be a turbocharged engine, and likely will never see a non-turbo application.


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'86 Ford Bronco II XLT 4x4 5 Speed 2.9L - what a dog, and it cracked heads like no tomorrow. 150k+ on 4 engines


#13 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 10:31 AM

Depends on your definition of "new". With the same bore/stroke, bore spacing, main and rod bearing size, etc, I'd call it an evolution of the gen 1 engine. My understanding is that the big differences are a redesigned timing chain, different turbos, different boost control, higher compression, addition of port injection, and obviously the new 10 spd. It was a significant redesign of the original 3.5, but the engine still shares dimensions and even some parts with the 2008 naturally aspirated 3.5L.

I don't consider that a "new" design in the same way the 2.7 Nano was.

#14 OFFLINE   twintornados

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:10 AM

 

The current 3.5L is a new engine.  It only shares displacement with the original 3.5L (which was designed with turbo charging in mind as well).  The current 3.5L is built to be a turbocharged engine, and likely will never see a non-turbo application.

.

That basic engine design would be interesting to see in a supercharged application as in, remove the turbos and put a high volume Whipple supercharger on it and see how it does. 


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#15 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:14 AM

.

That basic engine design would be interesting to see in a supercharged application as in, remove the turbos and put a high volume Whipple supercharger on it and see how it does. 

 

Or better yet, leave the turbos on and slap a supercharger on it.  A super-turbo-charged engine.  Size the turbos for even more low-end and let the supercharger handle the high end.


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Future Vehicles
2020 Ford Explorer/Lincoln Aviator

Current Vehicles
'17 F350 Super Duty Crew Cab, Lariat, 4x4, 6.7L Diesel

'10 Mercury Milan

'09 Ford Flex Limited (wife's)

Past Vehicles
'08 F250 Super Duty Crew Cab, Lariat, 4x4, 6.4L Diesel
'05 Ford F150 XLT SuperCrew 4x4 5.4 - sold @53k, not a single problem
'03 Ford Escape XLT
(wife's) Traded at 75k for '09 Flex
'99 Ford F150 XLT Regular Cab 4x4 5.4 - Sold @136k, then totaled by the new owner on the way to its new home :(
'96 Chevrolet Cavalier (wife's - she brought it into the marriage)
'86 Ford Bronco II XLT 4x4 5 Speed 2.9L - what a dog, and it cracked heads like no tomorrow. 150k+ on 4 engines


#16 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:23 AM

 
Or better yet, leave the turbos on and slap a supercharger on it.  A super-turbo-charged engine.  Size the turbos for even more low-end and let the supercharger handle the high end.


I assume you mean use the turbos to push air into the charger? It'd need bigger turbos for that to work. The cold side of the turbos is what limits output on the current engines and putting a charger downstream would still be choked by the limitations of the turbos. First serious (i.e. more than a cold air intake and a tune) performance mod you do on a 3.5 is bigger turbos. That's exactly what Ford had to do on the raptor-spec motors to crack 400 hp.

#17 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:28 AM

I assume you mean use the turbos to push air into the charger? It'd need bigger turbos for that to work. The cold side of the turbos is what limits output on the current engines and putting a charger downstream would still be choked by the limitations of the turbos. First serious (i.e. more than a cold air intake and a tune) performance mod you do on a 3.5 is bigger turbos. That's exactly what Ford had to do on the raptor-spec motors to crack 400 hp.

 

No, make them parallel, not compound.  Feed the engine from both.


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'17 F350 Super Duty Crew Cab, Lariat, 4x4, 6.7L Diesel

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'08 F250 Super Duty Crew Cab, Lariat, 4x4, 6.4L Diesel
'05 Ford F150 XLT SuperCrew 4x4 5.4 - sold @53k, not a single problem
'03 Ford Escape XLT
(wife's) Traded at 75k for '09 Flex
'99 Ford F150 XLT Regular Cab 4x4 5.4 - Sold @136k, then totaled by the new owner on the way to its new home :(
'96 Chevrolet Cavalier (wife's - she brought it into the marriage)
'86 Ford Bronco II XLT 4x4 5 Speed 2.9L - what a dog, and it cracked heads like no tomorrow. 150k+ on 4 engines


#18 OFFLINE   92merc

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:36 AM

Volvo has an electric supercharger working with turbo's on some of their engines.  I think they were doing the SC for the quick low end spool-up.  Then the turbo under higher loads.  I could be wrong.



#19 OFFLINE   Sevensecondsuv

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:42 AM

 
No, make them parallel, not compound.  Feed the engine from both.


Hmmmm. Don't think I've ever seen a parallel system (other than twin turbos). You'd have to use some sort of check valve to keep the turbo from pushing air backwards through the charger since boost isn't going to come on equally from both. Of course you'd have to provide a recirculation path too since a positive displacement charger still needs to breathe when the turbo is out-boosting it, holding the check valve closed.

I can't think of a good way to make that work.

Edited by Sevensecondsuv, 11 May 2018 - 11:46 AM.


#20 OFFLINE   fordmantpw

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:53 AM

Hmmmm. Don't think I've ever seen a parallel system (other than twin turbos). You'd have to use some sort of check valve to keep the turbo from pushing air backwards through the charger since boost isn't going to come on equally from both. Of course you'd have to provide a recirculation path too since a positive displacement charger still needs to breathe when the turbo is out-boosting it, holding the check valve closed.

I can't think of a good way to make that work.

 

If they can do parallel turbos of different sizes (the 6.4L PowerStroke for example), I don't see why it couldn't be done with a turbo and supercharger.

 

Coupling the turbos with an electric supercharger like 92merc mentioned would be cool.  How about this: electrically assisted supercharger at low RPM's to eliminate lag, then at high RPM when the engine is turning fast enough and the loads are greater, drop the electric assist and let the engine do it all.  But then, why do we need turbos?


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Future Vehicles
2020 Ford Explorer/Lincoln Aviator

Current Vehicles
'17 F350 Super Duty Crew Cab, Lariat, 4x4, 6.7L Diesel

'10 Mercury Milan

'09 Ford Flex Limited (wife's)

Past Vehicles
'08 F250 Super Duty Crew Cab, Lariat, 4x4, 6.4L Diesel
'05 Ford F150 XLT SuperCrew 4x4 5.4 - sold @53k, not a single problem
'03 Ford Escape XLT
(wife's) Traded at 75k for '09 Flex
'99 Ford F150 XLT Regular Cab 4x4 5.4 - Sold @136k, then totaled by the new owner on the way to its new home :(
'96 Chevrolet Cavalier (wife's - she brought it into the marriage)
'86 Ford Bronco II XLT 4x4 5 Speed 2.9L - what a dog, and it cracked heads like no tomorrow. 150k+ on 4 engines









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