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18 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   MY93SHO

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 04:53 PM

https://jalopnik.com...eens-1823707548

 

Cadillac CEO Johan de Nysschen dropped his elegy for Fun and Good Things and also Sedans in an interview with Motor Trend (emphasis mine):

 

“It’s partially happening because of energy prices, where people are less focused on fuel consumption and sedans being lighter,” he said. “But also it’s been driven now by the entry of younger consumers who really are less tuned into dynamics and handling and all of those things that used to excite enthusiasts. It’s more about the way cars complement and enable their lifestyle now.

And candidly, I also have to say it may also be influenced a little bit by the decay of America’s infrastructure. When roads no longer support high-performance sport sedans and ultra-low-profile rubber, people are going to respond to it.”


Edited by MY93SHO, 12 March 2018 - 04:56 PM.

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#2 OFFLINE   fuzzymoomoo

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 05:06 PM

Hes not wrong
Officially a disgruntled Ford Employee

#3 OFFLINE   MY93SHO

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 06:23 PM

Hes not wrong

You'd think Johan would have seen that coming, isn't that his job? Has his last employer used this excuse?



#4 OFFLINE   Anthony

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 07:41 PM

You'd think Johan would have seen that coming, isn't that his job? Has his last employer used this excuse?

 

 

Let's be real.  The entire automotive has been turned on its head in just the past generation of vehicles.  Midsize cars, which was once the darling is now practically being abandoned.  Cars, in general (enthusiast / luxury or eco) have become second choices behind CUV / SUVs.

 

 

This isn't just a problem for Cadillac cars.  The BMW 3/4 series which is basically the gauge for "luxury enthusiast vehicles" sold over 140k vehicles in 2014 and 2015 in the US.  Sales for 2017?  It didn't even break 100k.   That may be cyclical for BMW, but it was enough for Mercedes (which has more updated SUVs) to take over their US sales crown.

 

Should Ford have seen it coming and had a new Escape ready a couple years ago?  Or an EcoSport?  Or an Explorer?  Or Bronco?  Or Ranger?

 

I don't think any of us are in a position to Monday-morning quarterback to the auto industry over the past couple years.  Nobody was ready for it (save FCA and that was blind dumb luck that their cars failed them before the industry failed cars)


Edited by Anthony, 12 March 2018 - 07:43 PM.


#5 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 06:57 AM

 

 

Let's be real.  The entire automotive has been turned on its head in just the past generation of vehicles.  Midsize cars, which was once the darling is now practically being abandoned.  Cars, in general (enthusiast / luxury or eco) have become second choices behind CUV / SUVs.

 

 

I wouldn't say that- Mid sized cars are down roughly 20% year to year for the past 2 years. I'd say non-luxury full sized cars is where its really hurting.

 

It also boils down to value perception- CUV/SUV sales are booming because they are more "practical/flexible" then a sedan. Just as an example-I can just fit a couple pieces of 8ft long molding with the seats down in my SHO-it just clears the flat screen on the dash. I can do the same exact thing with my Wife's Escape, which is a much shorter vehicle, but yet fit taller/wider items in the hatch space. Its that piece of mind or knowing you can do that is helping drive CUV and 4 door pickup sales. People don't mind spending $40-50K on a vehicle they will keep 7-10 years, if they are buying it outright.

 

Dealing with Home Depot runs is major reason I'm looking at a Bronco as my next vehicle-even though I could get away with a Mustang or Fusion Sport. 


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#6 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 08:48 AM

Practically being abandoned?   :doh:

 

2017 sales

 

Fusion 209K

Accord 322K

Camry 387K

Altima  254K

Malibu 185K

Sonata  132K

Optima  107K

 

That's 1.6M vehicles and there are more that aren't included.    It's still a HUGE market.  It's only down 20% - 25%.



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#7 OFFLINE   twintornados

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 09:22 AM

Practically being abandoned?   :doh:

 

2017 sales

 

Fusion 209K

Accord 322K

Camry 387K

Altima  254K

Malibu 185K

Sonata  132K

Optima  107K

 

That's 1.6M vehicles and there are more that aren't included.    It's still a HUGE market.  It's only down 20% - 25%.

.

Aren't Accord and Camry classified as "large sedans" and not officially considered "mid-size"? However, I do get your point about sedans being a significant segment of the overall market. 


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#8 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:09 AM

.

Aren't Accord and Camry classified as "large sedans" and not officially considered "mid-size"? However, I do get your point about sedans being a significant segment of the overall market. 

 

No they're still mid sized sedans although some are at the upper limit of the official classification. 



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#9 OFFLINE   Anthony

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:44 AM

"Practically being abandoned" was word-smithing, but you get the point.  When an entire segment is down 20% - 25%, it doesn't take a soothsayer to figure out what is going on.



#10 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 11:29 AM

"Practically being abandoned" was word-smithing, but you get the point.  When an entire segment is down 20% - 25%, it doesn't take a soothsayer to figure out what is going on.

 

True but there is a big difference between a vehicle that goes from 300K to 200K and one that goes from 60K to 45K.    If you still have 200K units at stake that warrants a much bigger investment than 45K.

 

And you still have a huge market to gain market share.   1 point of market share for mid sized sedans is probably worth 20K vehicles per year.

 

In other much smaller market segments a 1 point gain might only be 1K vehicles.

 

Point is mid sized sedans are still a huge market even if it's smaller than it was and even if it declines a bit more over the next few years.   It certainly won't be abandoned.



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#11 OFFLINE   tbone

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:53 PM

Well with Fords sad effort on the last Fusion refresh you would think they were abandoning the market.

#12 OFFLINE   rmc523

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:13 PM

Well with Fords sad effort on the last Fusion refresh you would think they were abandoning the market.

 

I don't think it's that at all.  the tepid refresh was a systemic problem, across multiple vehicles, not just Fusion.  I think it all ties back to Fields' view of the market.  He thought a decline was coming, and all the models were doing well at the time....therefore, he felt that Ford could coast on that success for a while, sharpen up the vehicles with minor (inexpensive) refreshes, and that sales would keep rolling in as they had been.  Obviously, they've gone the other way.


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#13 OFFLINE   Anthony

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 06:41 PM

 

True but there is a big difference between a vehicle that goes from 300K to 200K and one that goes from 60K to 45K.    If you still have 200K units at stake that warrants a much bigger investment than 45K.

 

 

 

Yes, there is a big difference.  100k less people buying your car.

 

 

;)  Kidding, I get your point.

 

 

But than again, nobody expected minivans sale to go from 1.4 million units per year to ~480k either and have a majority of players leave the market entirely.

 

 

Quite coincidentally, midsize cars sold ~1.7m units last year.



#14 OFFLINE   630land

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 11:56 AM

"Down only 20-25 percent".
That's still a lot, and no recession going on.

Agree that to someone who could not care less about sportiness, UVs have "value" for more room and available 4wd.

I'm not interested, but don't whine endlessly about "why aren't people buying cars with manual transmission, etc?"

Ford, like Mopar, is seemingly handing car market to Asian makes. With hybrids, can build SUV's to pass CAFE. Just deal with it and move on.

#15 OFFLINE   rmc523

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 12:00 PM

I wonder how a hatchback (the liftback version of Mondeo) would do as opposed to a typical sedan - I wonder if buyers would see added value there?


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#16 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 12:24 PM

I doubt it. It’s hard to even tell it’s a hatchback unless you look closely and it still has that sloping rear window which kills cargo capacity.

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#17 OFFLINE   rmc523

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 12:29 PM

I doubt it. It’s hard to even tell it’s a hatchback unless you look closely and it still has that sloping rear window which kills cargo capacity.

 

It's more practical than a sedan, though, as you can fit larger objects through because you don't have to worry about the shelf behind the seats.  I'd go for one of those over a sedan any day.


Edited by rmc523, 14 March 2018 - 12:29 PM.

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#18 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 12:45 PM

But just barely.  I agree it's better than the sedan in that respect and would consider one if I was in the sedan market.

 

 

It's more practical than a sedan, though, as you can fit larger objects through because you don't have to worry about the shelf behind the seats.  I'd go for one of those over a sedan any day.



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#19 OFFLINE   silvrsvt

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 01:18 PM

Hatchbacks can have issues with side impact ratings for the rear passengers-the lack of a cross member in the C pillar does that. 

 

I know the first gen Focus had that problem 


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Ford Products owned though the years:
1986 Escort GT Race Red
1998 Mustang GT Dark Green Satin
2002 SVT Focus Satin Silver
2006 Mustang GT Tungsten Grey

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2017 Escape SE AWD Platinum White

Future Fords:
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20xx Mustang GT350 or the like

 

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