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Guest Message by DevFuse

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No start 3.7 2011 f-150


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13 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:38 PM

Drove to work and when I went to leave it rolled over but didn't kick. Pushed it in the shop and since twice in the last 2 weeks it stumbled when it first started, I checked the fuel relay and fuses. All good. Jumped the relay with a fuel line disconnected and fuel gushes out. Hooked up the scanner and everything is good except "crank sensor and cam sensor in sync.....no" So I went on Mitchel on demand and began looking around. Can't find squat! All it talks about is how to confirm if they are in sync or not (I already know they're not!) Then it goes on how to check the crank sensor. Well, according to the scanner tool, if the mil light comes on (koeo) and then goes out while cranking, that means the pcm is getting a cranking signal from the crank sensor, so I'm guessing its good. As far as cam sensors, I found there is four of them on the back of the heads by the firewall.

 

So...anybody know how to check the cam sensors or more importantly, does anyone have any idea's or have run across this before? How could all four go bad at the same time???

 

Rolls over fast but not a kick. I even tried giving it a short of quick start and nothing which tells me the ign isn't firing.

 

2011 3.7 f150 base model with 51,000kms on it.

 

HELP!!


Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.







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#2 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:43 AM

So, how to make a long story short....

Cam and crank might not be in sync if engine has sat for a few seconds/minute as the oil pressure is gone and the cam phazers allow chain tension to slacken. However, once engine is cranking, they both sync up. That's not the problem.

Chased wires and connectors all over the engine and everything is fine.

Still no codes but engine wont fire.

Still went around checking connections and stuff and when I clicked open the lock on the plug that goes on the throttle body (its fly by wire) I couldn't pull the connector off. I was about to get a screw driver to pop it off when I got a phone call and had to leave for the night. Wiggled it a bit and then jammed it in tight and snapped the lock on. Gave it one last try, foot to floor and crank...and it starts. Sounds like a carbed engine that was flooded, slowly building rpm as its cleaning out. Couple revs and its clean running. Check the scanner, no codes, everything is still normal.

 

CRAP!!

 

So what was it? What fixed it? Is it reliable?

 

Great questions. Left it in the shop overnight and went back Sat morning and it fired right up, acting like nothing ever happened. Took it home, this morning hit the key and it fired right up, couldn't hear if it stumbled though as I had my rain jacket on and as I turned the key the jacket crinkled and I couldn't hear the engine. Regardless, fired right up and is running fine. Talked to a friend who has a shop and he said the big three especially has VERY wide spec's for their electronics, sensors etc. He figures either crank or more likely a cam sensor is right at the limit of its specs. If its not in the middle, consider it the problem.

So, now I have to go and check continuity on all four cam sensors and the crank sensor to see if any are not "dead on perfect in the middle of the spec's"

 

Hopefully this is it and hopefully this post will help somebody else with the same problem. (did a lot of google searching myself on "3.7 f150 no start" and got a lot of hits on stuff that didn't relate/didn't help)


Algorian Logic

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#3 OFFLINE   theoldwizard

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 10:15 AM

Cam and crank might not be in sync if engine has sat for a few seconds/minute as the oil pressure is gone and the cam phazers allow chain tension to slacken. However, once engine is cranking, they both sync up. That's not the problem.


It should not be ! There are check valves in the cam chain tensioner that are supposed to maintain chain tension after a shutdown.

Also, there is some quite intricate software that will get the injectors/plugs to fire within less than one revolution.
 

Gave it one last try, foot to floor and crank...and it starts. Sounds like a carbed engine that was flooded, slowly building rpm as its cleaning out. Couple revs and its clean running. Check the scanner, no codes, everything is still normal.

 
Everyone needs to remember the "clear flood" mode.  It has been on all Ford EFI engines since EEE-III !  Any time you have a crank-no-start, arfer a couple of attempts, put your foot on the floor and crank again.
 

Talked to a friend who has a shop and he said the big three especially has VERY wide spec's for their electronics, sensors etc. He figures either crank or more likely a cam sensor is right at the limit of its specs. If its not in the middle, consider it the problem.
So, now I have to go and check continuity on all four cam sensors and the crank sensor to see if any are not "dead on perfect in the middle of the spec's"


This is a case where you probably really need an oscilloscope and a good battery charger. While testing, remove the fuel pump fuse/relay so that you do not flood the engine.

Ford uses variable reluctance cam and crank sensors. Their output voltage varies with the speed of the teeth on wheel passing the the sensor, so it is very low at cranking speeds.  Hook up the 'scope to both can sensors and the crank sensor and capture some waveforms.  This is the ONLY WAY you will know if those sensors are working and in sync or not.


Edited by theoldwizard, 11 December 2017 - 10:16 AM.


#4 ONLINE   fordtech1

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 03:42 PM

Its highly unlikely a cam Sensor is the culprit. Crank sensor determines engine rotation for spark. I would bet all 4 cam sensors could be unplugged and it still run. Ford uses FMEM failure mode effects management in which it the pcm substitutes values to limp the vehicle home. This is on most vehicle sensor inputs minus the mandatory sensors. Crank sensor being one of those. However, hes correct an oscilloscope would be about the most accurate way to tell. Scan tool data can be too slow to catch blips.

#5 OFFLINE   theoldwizard

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 11:00 AM

Its highly unlikely a cam Sensor is the culprit. Crank sensor determines engine rotation for spark. I would bet all 4 cam sensors could be unplugged and it still run. Ford uses FMEM failure mode effects management in which it the pcm substitutes values to limp the vehicle home. This is on most vehicle sensor inputs minus the mandatory sensors. Crank sensor being one of those. However, hes correct an oscilloscope would be about the most accurate way to tell. Scan tool data can be too slow to catch blips.

During cranking, the PCM uses either or both the cam and crank sensors for the first couple of revolutions.

 

The whole cam/crank sync and "first fire" strategy is quite complex.  In my day, we had "cranking" and "running"  now there are multiple steps.



#6 OFFLINE   YT90SC

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:52 PM

You need a scan tool that can read calculated ethanol %...


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#7 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 10:14 AM

Thanks for the extra info guys, I'm flat out busy right now so unless I go back into "crisis mode" due to it not starting this will have to wait. I'm on vacation from 15 Dec to 8 Jan but I've got a couple months of work lined up to jam in there, lol. Not even sure if we have an oscilloscope in the tool crib here.

Any stumbling has been on start up so maybe the crank sensor is getting weak? I'll try to scope it if I get a chance.

 

Thanks again.


Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#8 OFFLINE   YT90SC

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 07:42 PM

OR... completely ignore what I said.


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#9 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 07:15 AM

Haven't checked to see if the scan tool here does a % of ethanol, why would I want to check that? You figure its not putting the right amount of fuel in because its thinking there's more/less ethanol in the blend? Not even sure if there is ethanol in the fuel here as normally the ethanol pumps are green and tout how eco friendly it is. Regardless, I will check that too.

-9 here this morning and it started after 2-3 revolutions like normal but when it started it was idling (or stumbling?) at about 4-500rpm and I gave it a little throttle to take it to 1500 then back down to a normal idle. Same thing when it was -17 for a week or so. It starts but idles low and if left it eventually (5 seconds maybe?) "clears up" and comes up to normal idle speed.

 

Thanks again...get to it when it slows down here. lol.


Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.

#10 OFFLINE   theoldwizard

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 07:56 AM

-9 here this morning and it started after 2-3 revolutions like normal but when it started it was idling (or stumbling?) at about 4-500rpm and I gave it a little throttle to take it to 1500 then back down to a normal idle. Same thing when it was -17 for a week or so. It starts but idles low and if left it eventually (5 seconds maybe?) "clears up" and comes up to normal idle speed.

 

Thanks again...get to it when it slows down here. lol.

You might just have to "live with it" !  It sounds like it is over fueling on extreme cold starts.

 

When it is extremely cold, if you crank it and it does not start, stop, plant your foot on the floor (this initiates clear flood mode) and crank again.



#11 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:31 AM

I've often wondered exactly what "clear flood mode" actually does.   Can you elaborate?



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#12 ONLINE   fordtech1

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 11:56 AM

I've often wondered exactly what "clear flood mode" actually does.   Can you elaborate?


Basically turns off injectors while cranking but keeping spark.

#13 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 12:44 PM

Basically turns off injectors while cranking but keeping spark.

 

That's what I thought but wasn't sure.  Thanks.



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#14 OFFLINE   goinbroke2

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 03:04 PM

So, -13 and I hit the key and like normal as soon as it started to come up to idle I pulled it into gear but heard the stumbling so I never touched the pedal. It stumbled then stalled. Cranked over and no kick. Held to the floor and it rolled a couple times and started kicking while cranking. Took foot off pedal and hit key and it started to kick then rolled over without kicking again. Held to floor and it started kicking. This time to prove what I was thinking I held to the floor and cranked it again, it started kicking and then slowly caught and started to come up in rpm. Couple rev's and it cleared out. Shut it off and hit the key without touching the pedal and fired up normally.

 

So, I think Wizard is correct, its just a bitch when its cold and I'll have to live with it. Now I understand what the problem is though, so next time it's cold, I'll fire it up and feather the pedal to ensure its cleared up and running good, then I'll put it in gear.

Not sure why a FI engine would flood out when cold but that's something to look for later. Did I mention I'm flat out right now? Lol!

 

Thanks for all the help/idea's guys!


Algorian Logic

A reasoning technique that entails reaching a conclusion about a subject in which one has no expertise and subsequently finding or creating factoids to support the supposition without using critical thinking skills or research to discern the obvious implausibility of the facts or the conclusion.








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