rmc523 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Edited October 3, 2017 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Another big month for GM but Silverado and Sierra sales couldn't match F Series which was about 9,000 units higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 (edited) Those RWD Cadillacs are sure selling poorly! Where are the buyers that some claim will show up? Ford was right to not bother with GRWD or new Panther replacement. Fiat can't decide if they want to do a new Chrysler 300, also. So much for the idea that "buyers are waiting for a RWD flagship". Edited October 3, 2017 by 630land 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 Those RWD Cadillacs are sure selling poorly! Where are the buyers that some claim will show up? Ford was right to not bother with GRWD or new Panther replacement. Fiat can't decide if they want to do a new Chrysler 300, also. So much for the idea that "buyers are waiting for a RWD flagship". It's not that the RWD is the problem, two of the biggest issues are that they massively increased the price, and the cars are small inside, so people don't want to pay that price for a small car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Like most things GM talked a good game but missed the bus with getting enough buyers interested. They thought that fronting with a premium platform with remarkable dynamics would be enough but they just couldn't sell the sizzle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 People don't want to buy cars as much as old days, period. Even the foreign luxury brands are selling more and more SUV's. Continental is doing ok, no need to be old school tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 People who want a BMW will simply buy the real thing. People who look at a Cadillac sedan expect it to have a comfortable back seat. Whether that is fair or just is irrelevant. It's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Those who want a big back seat are getting Escalades. Lux buyers are flocking to SUV's, period. Edited October 4, 2017 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 Those who want a big back seat are getting Escalades. Lux buyers are flocking to SUV's, period. That's not his point - the ATS and CTS have had very cramped back seats since the day they debuted - when sedans were selling better. Which isn't what Cadillac buyers (or conquest buyers for that matter) want, hence they've had nose-diving sales since day 1. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) That's not his point - the ATS and CTS have had very cramped back seats since the day they debuted - when sedans were selling better. Which isn't what Cadillac buyers (or conquest buyers for that matter) want, hence they've had nose-diving sales since day 1. Crazy part is that GM could have used Zeta Commodore and caprice sized vehicle as a proper 5 and 7 Series competitors until the Omega platform was ready.- I just don't see the width of Alpha being a good fit with what GM wanted for cadillac. Strange since Zeta's extra width (and weight) was the whole reason for dropping Zeta in favor of Alpha.. Edited October 9, 2017 by jpd80 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 People who want a BMW will simply buy the real thing. Customers who like BMW sedans with great driving dynamics like the E38 7-Series and E39 5-Series will probably be disappointed with the current generations of those cars. They've gone soft. Cadillac and Jaguar sedans in those categories are now better to drive than the BMWs. Too bad sedans from all luxury brands are out of favor now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKX1960 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Customers who like BMW sedans with great driving dynamics like the E38 7-Series and E39 5-Series will probably be disappointed with the current generations of those cars. They've gone soft. Cadillac and Jaguar sedans in those categories are now better to drive than the BMWs. Too bad sedans from all luxury brands are out of favor now. Some say that once autonomous cars become a thing, the soft cars will be what customers want to buy. Since the car will be doing the driving, the "driver" will be more concerned with the comfort than the driving experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) what's the point of driving dynamics in a luxury car if you're not going to drive it. Edited October 11, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKX1960 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) what's the point of driving dynamics in a luxury car if you're not going to drive it. I think the point they were trying to make was cars like BMW will be less favored and cars like Cadillac and Lincoln will be what customers will want. Edited October 11, 2017 by MKX1960 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) I think the point they were trying to make was cars like BMW will be less favored and cars like Cadillac and Lincoln will be what customers will want. Yes sir, though Lincoln doesn't currently offer any cars that would satisfy the traditional BMW buyer seeking the ultimate driving machine. Cadillac, Jaguar, and Alfa Romeo have all bested BMW in the compact and midsize luxury sedan segments in terms of driving fun. Those brands have a chance to steal sales from BMW, but the opportunity is limited. Autonomous cars are coming like MKX1960 said, and sales of all luxury sedans are declining in the Usa. Edited October 11, 2017 by rperez817 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Crazy part is that GM could have used Zeta Commodore and caprice sized vehicle as a proper 5 and 7 Series competitors until the Omega platform was ready.- I just don't see the width of Alpha being a good fit with what GM wanted for cadillac. Strange since Zeta's extra width (and weight) was the whole reason for dropping Zeta in favor of Alpha.. So the use an old platform over a new, paid-for over the BK platform?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 (edited) So the use an old platform over a new, paid-for over the BK platform?. Go back a step, the whole idea behind Alpha was that GM felt they needed to copy 3 and 5 series but they didn't realize that BMW was about to make those vehicles bigger...Omega was the correction for 7 Series. Not many people in the US know that Omega was developed by GM shanghai on the boned of Holden's LWB Zeta caprice. and in that same vein, Holden was developing similar for the NG Commodore when work was stopped. They even got to the stage of preparing Elizabeth for layer build and the alloy body/steel floor we see on CT6.. Step back and thing about that for just a moment and imagine what could have been but for a simple twist of fate..Shoot, even the original Sigma had been started by Holden and then gifted to Cadillac because they wanted a smaller cabin than desirable for the Aussie Commodore. And when i said GM / cadillac coulda shoulda, I'm referring to pre BK when when Zeta was being touted for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick and Cadillac. and time has proven that the Commodore was a great 5 series sized car Edited October 16, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Go back a step, the whole idea behind Alpha was that GM felt they needed to copy 3 and 5 series but they didn't realize that BMW was about to make those vehicles bigger...Omega was the correction for 7 Series. No, it was about what was said before as the ATS was to be the 2011 Pontiac G6. In the class that the ATS/CTS competes in everyone have the same set-up, even the Koreans. Sedan sales in this class isn't what it use to be but there's room for improvement, we'll see when the CT4/CT5 replacements arrive. Not many people in the US know that Omega was developed by GM shanghai on the boned of Holden's LWB Zeta caprice. and in that same vein, Holden was developing similar for the NG Commodore when work was stopped. They even got to the stage of preparing Elizabeth for layer build and the alloy body/steel floor we see on CT6.. Step back and thing about that for just a moment and imagine what could have been but for a simple twist of fate..Shoot, even the original Sigma had been started by Holden and then.... Australia government didn't want to "play ball" don't matter how great Holdens plans were. Ford, Mitsu and Toyota closed shop because of "manufacturing cost". And when i said GM / cadillac coulda shoulda, I'm referring to pre BK when when Zeta was being touted for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick and Cadillac. and time has proven that the Commodore was a great 5 series sized car That was the plan approx. 2006 that GM was more-or-less going full tilt with rwd, full-size sedans and coupes under Lutz until the decision to cut Zeta funding to launch the GMT-900s and the ultimate BK. G8 was the start of it, Camaro was the only car of the original plan that survived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 With trucks selling, Zeta based cars would have been discontinued, if built. Car guys want sporty sedans, used, since they expect "other guy" to buy new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) With trucks selling, Zeta based cars would have been discontinued, if built. Car guys want sporty sedans, used, since they expect "other guy" to buy new. Zeta was designed deliberately large on the say so of GMNA to deliver a Utility with 120" wheelbase. Ultimately GM was looking to replace the Traverse with a Zeta based Utility... Zeta had that much product room that it could cover everything from a Camaro through to a 120" wheelbase utility Very few platforms have that much foresight baked in at inception. The real crime here is that GM never even tried. Edited October 17, 2017 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) No, it was about what was said before as the ATS was to be the 2011 Pontiac G6. In the class that the ATS/CTS competes in everyone have the same set-up, even the Koreans. Sedan sales in this class isn't what it use to be but there's room for improvement, we'll see when the CT4/CT5 replacements arrive. Think about what you just said, that original Pontiac G6 would have needed to have started in CY 2006 to be ready in 2010 as a MY2011. So whatever GM baked in at that time for Pontiac and Cadillac in terms of vehicle size would have been in design lock in roughly two years before that (2008) right when bankruptcy hit. So GM wouldn't have been able to change vehicle size / shape even if it wanted to. Australia government didn't want to "play ball" don't matter how great Holdens plans were. Ford, Mitsu and Toyota closed shop because of "manufacturing cost". At the time, the government was fully supportive of any plans for export cars and would coinvest to the tune of roughly 1/3. As Holden developed cars for regions like South America, the tariff barriers would go up almost overnight. That was the plan approx. 2006 that GM was more-or-less going full tilt with rwd, full-size sedans and coupes under Lutz until the decision to cut Zeta funding to launch the GMT-900s and the ultimate BK. G8 was the start of it, Camaro was the only car of the original plan that survived. That timeline ws incorrect from about 2003-2004 GM became very anxious about new fuel economy rules. Zeta cars were on again, off again about three times until finally GM couldn't take the chance and cancelled out on all but G8 and the Camaro. and that is why GM continued on with an outdated FWD Impala for so many years Forgive my indulgence in Zeta, it really was a remarkable project and such a shame that GM never fully embraced it. The evolution of Zeta is basically Omega so I kinda got my wish anyway, albeit in a restricted way.. Edited October 17, 2017 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asapessay Posted November 16, 2017 Share Posted November 16, 2017 People who want a BMW will simply buy the real thing. People who look at a Cadillac sedan expect it to have a comfortable back seat. Whether that is fair or just is irrelevant. It's just the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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