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Consumers Union wants mpg ratings for heavy-duty pickups


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Consumers Union wants mpg ratings for heavy-duty pickups

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170922/OEM/170929890/consumers-union-wants-mpg-ratings-for-heavy-duty-pickups

 

September 22, 2017 @ 5:38 pm Eric Kulisch

 

WASHINGTON -- Consumers Union is lobbying Congress to require public disclosure of fuel economy estimates for

heavy-duty pickups so buyers can make more informed choices, after its tests found diesel-powered trucks

underperformed gasoline-powered trucks.

 

Automakers are required to post window stickers on new light-duty vehicles showing estimated fuel economy,

but there is no such mandate for trucks with gross vehicle weights exceeding 8,500 pounds.

 

The latest issue of the public interest group's magazine, Consumer Reports, includes a report ​ about tests it

conducted on four popular heavy-duty pickups: the Chevrolet Silverado 2500 HD, Ford F-250, Ram 2500 and

Nissan Titan XD.

 

The tests found that the greater efficiency of their diesel engines does not make up for the extra weight they carry.

The heavy-duty trucks achieved 14 to 15 mpg, or about 1 to 2 mpg less than their gasoline-powered light-duty

counterparts.

 

Different tests

But it is challenging to evaluate the claims in a comparative way because Consumer Reports' test protocols differ

from those of the EPA, including types of gasoline and driving methods. Plus, there are no government fuel-economy

standards for heavy-duty pickups to meet as there are for light vehicles.

 

Most diesel-powered heavy-duty trucks are sold to consumers who use them for towing and hauling heavy loads.

Under those conditions, diesel engines are generally more fuel efficient than gasoline-powered trucks.

 

The EPA enforces emissions standards for heavy-duty pickups, but compensates for the difference in usage from

passenger vehicles by including a work factor for the payload. And the work factor varies for each model.

 

"Testing heavy duty pickup truck fuel economy is a very difficult task because of variables such as payload/towing

capability, spring weight, and axle ratios," said Dave Sullivan, manager of product analysis at market research firm

AutoPacific.

 

"There are many ways to spec heavy duty trucks. Also, most of these trucks are designed to be used as a tool for work.

They are often loaded with things in the bed or towing," said Sullivan. "Fuel economy totally unladen is going to be far

different from what people might actually see in the field. I appreciate the effort to test these trucks, but as the saying

goes, your mileage may vary."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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So is this just Consumer Report trying to make an issue where none exists?

 

There's no actual quaification of what CR's test circuit entails and whether the vehicles were tested

loaded and unloaded and then again, towing a heavy trailer which is why most HD2500 / F250s are purchased.

Edited by jpd80
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Looking at the CR report and it a real HD2500 vs 1500 truck comparison but only

because they want to show that the HD diesels use more fuel than the 1500 trucks ..DUH

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/pickup-trucks/heavy-duty-pickup-truck-fuel-economy/

Even though the Environmental Protection Agency collects data from automakers on heavy-duty pickup truck emissions and fuel economy, it has never mandated that the results be made available to the public, largely for budgetary reasons.

 

From Consumer Report:- their test cycle seems to approximates the official City Cycle figure

 

Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD: 14 mpg (6.6 Diesel)

Chevrolet Silverado 1500HD: 16 mpg (5.3 V8)

 

Ford F-250: 15 mpg (6.7 Diesel)

Ford F-150: 17 mpg (3.5 EB)

 

Ram 2500: 14 mpg (6.7 Diesel)

Ram 1500: 15 mpg (5.7 V8)

Ram 1500: 20 mpg (V6 Diesel)

 

Nissan Titan XD: 15 mpg

Nissan Titan: 14 mpg (5.6 V8 - official EPA City)

Edited by jpd80
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News flash! A truck that weighs 2000 lbs more gets worse fuel economy. Who knew?

 

That's what I found amusing.....they're acting as if it's a complete mystery, and that they otherwise should get the same mileage.

 

I mean, I could understand putting them on the window sticker for comparison's sake at the consumer level (in other words, for models sold at a typical dealer that aren't like the big class 6-7 trucks), but otherwise I'm not sure why they're touting this as some revelation that bigger, heavier trucks get worse fuel economy than their smaller, lighter companions.

Edited by rmc523
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That's what I found amusing.....they're acting as if it's a complete mystery, and that they otherwise should get the same mileage.

 

I mean, I could understand putting them on the window sticker for comparison's sake at the consumer level (in other words, for models sold at a typical dealer that aren't like the big class 6-7 trucks), but otherwise I'm not sure why they're touting this as some revelation.

 

Agreed. It would be nice to see the numbers so that the buyer has the ability to compare a 6.2L Ford with the 4.30 gears against one with the 3.73s, or against a Ram with the 6.4L or a Chevy with the 6.0L.

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That's what I found amusing.....they're acting as if it's a complete mystery, and that they otherwise should get the same mileage.

 

I mean, I could understand putting them on the window sticker for comparison's sake at the consumer level (in other words, for models sold at a typical dealer that aren't like the big class 6-7 trucks), but otherwise I'm not sure why they're touting this as some revelation that bigger, heavier trucks get worse fuel economy than their smaller, lighter companions.

Because they're idiots.

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As vehicle weights increase, the city cycle fuel economy increases in proportion.

Got a heavier truck with a big diesel, then it will use more fuel around town than an F150 / 1500.

 

What CR should be asking is how they perform when fully laden or towing heavy loads...

You know, the whole reason for buying a HD2500 / F250 in the first place.

Edited by jpd80
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As vehicle weights increase, the city cycle fuel economy increases in proportion.

Got a heavier truck with a big diesel, then it will use more fuel around town than an F150 / 1500.

 

What CR should be asking is how they perform when fully laden or towing heavy loads...

You know, the whole reason for buying a HD2500 / F250 in the first place.

 

But that doesn't fit the narrative! Don't bring facts into this discussion! They aren't relevant.

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The diesel is a $10,000 option on these things, requires urea, requires regen cycles, and has significantly higher maintenance costs than the gas engine. There's only two reasons for buyers to choose a diesel: 1) they're planning on towing 20k over the interstate and need the power, or 2) they're posers and gotta be cool since diesel 3/4 tons are the modern day muscle car. I don't think fuel economy factors into it one way or the other.

 

I would like to see the manufactures offer a big gas engine that gives the full tow rating without all the negatives of the diesels. This would be an attractive option to guys who routinely, but not continuously, need to move large trailers short distances. I know a lot of farmers who won't give up their rusty old V10 Fords for this exact reason.

Edited by Sevensecondsuv
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The diesel is a $10,000 option on these things, requires urea, requires regen cycles, and has significantly higher maintenance costs than the gas engine. There's only two reasons for buyers to choose a diesel: 1) they're planning on towing 20k over the interstate and need the power, or 2) they're posers and gotta be cool since diesel 3/4 tons are the modern day muscle car. I don't think fuel economy factors into it one way or the other.

 

I would like to see the manufactures offer a big gas engine that gives the full tow rating without all the negatives of the diesels. This would be an attractive option to guys who routinely, but not continuously, need to move large trailers short distances. I know a lot of farmers who won't give up their rusty old V10 Fords for this exact reason.

 

Fuel economy does matter, but it's not the only reason I bought the diesel. I don't tow 20k lbs, but I do tow a 9500 lb fifth wheel (which may be upgraded to a 11-13k lb'er in a few years). I bought the diesel because I want the relaxed towing that comes with owning a diesel. The fact that I can achieve over 11 MPG on a 2500 mile trip towing the fiver listed above is a huge benefit. I will likely never drive it enough to "save money" driving the diesel, but I don't have to in order to appreciate the benefits of the diesel. If I never planned to leave my state with the fiver in tow, I would have likely gone with the 6.2L, but I like my vacations to be relaxing, even when driving, and the diesel makes the drive so much better. I guess you can call me a poser if you want, and feel the need to be condescending.

 

Personally, I would like to see a small EcoBoost V8 in the Super Duty to achieve better fuel economy while still having that effortless towing feel a turbo charged engine provides, while avoiding all the negatives of the diesel. Honestly, though, after 8k miles, it has not been that big of a deal to add 10 gallons of DEF to my truck (it really drinks it while towing). Yep, you read that right, an extra $30 for DEF over 8k miles. Oh. My. Gosh! In reality, if an extra $75 per oil change every $10k miles is going to break you, you shouldn't be driving these big trucks to begin with. And if I didn't seek out to know when it was in regen, I wouldn't notice it.

 

Oh, and the diesel is not 10k, it's $8500 (MSRP, which nobody pays) for the Super Duty.

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Actually towing a heavy camper is a legitimate reason to want the diesel. That's what I meant by 20k over the interstate. The 20k was just an exaggeration. Given the 6.2's lack of low end torque, I don't blame you. Listening to a V8 howling at 4000 rpm on every slight hill would get old on a long road trip.

 

As for option cost, 10k was about average across the three makes the last time I looked (a few years back). Most recent example was a coworker just bought a GMC 2500 and went with the vortec because the difference in deal the dealership was offering was $12k. They were willing to discount the gas truck that much more heavily than the diesel.

 

I don't think we'll we'll see an ecoboost anything in the superduty. The duty cycle those trucks need to be designed for would likely melt a forced induction gasoline engine. If they do, it'll be an all new cgi block and probably have more in common with the 6.7 scorpion than any traditional V8 Ford ever made.

 

This new 7.0 has the potential to redefine the entire segment. I'm imagining a coyote type top end with 40% more displacement underneath it. Should easily be a 550 hp / 650 ft lb motor in truck spec. Such a motor would be a reason for guys to upgrade their old V10 trucks.

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Actually towing a heavy camper is a legitimate reason to want the diesel. That's what I meant by 20k over the interstate. The 20k was just an exaggeration. Given the 6.2's lack of low end torque, I don't blame you. Listening to a V8 howling at 4000 rpm on every slight hill would get old on a long road trip.

 

As for option cost, 10k was about average across the three makes the last time I looked (a few years back). Most recent example was a coworker just bought a GMC 2500 and went with the vortec because the difference in deal the dealership was offering was $12k. They were willing to discount the gas truck that much more heavily than the diesel.

 

I don't think we'll we'll see an ecoboost anything in the superduty. The duty cycle those trucks need to be designed for would likely melt a forced induction gasoline engine. If they do, it'll be an all new cgi block and probably have more in common with the 6.7 scorpion than any traditional V8 Ford ever made.

 

This new 7.0 has the potential to redefine the entire segment. I'm imagining a coyote type top end with 40% more displacement underneath it. Should easily be a 550 hp / 650 ft lb motor in truck spec. Such a motor would be a reason for guys to upgrade their old V10 trucks.

 

I think an EcoBoost with a CGI block would be perfectly capable in a Super Duty. Sure, it wouldn't be rated to 30k+ lbs like the diesel, but the 3.5L in the F150 is rated to 13k or something like that, so I could see 15k. Obviously, it would be beefed up over the 3.5L, but I think it would be great for those who use their SD for weekend RV towing.

 

I don't think you will see anywhere near 550/650 out of the 7.0 in the near future. Scale up the 5.0 and you're looking at around 550 each. Tune that down to meet the duty cycle for a SD, and I think you are looking closer to 450/500. Sure, it could easily produce 550/650, but not in a heavy duty pickup. I could have seen myself in a 450/500 gasser if it got decent fuel economy.

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The diesel is a $8,900 option at retail, not at invoice. On topic that, when you go to sell, you will recoup most of the diesel option upcharge.

 

The diesel plows like a beast, Tows like a beast and accelerates like a beast. I get 11-12.6mpg towing my 13k 5th wheel (40ft). I weighed truck and camper and was at 22,9xxlbs.. That is amazing to get 12mpg moving that much weight.. something a gasser will not get.

 

Yes you have a regen every tank but I also love that my camper isn't covered with soot after a tow and I can start it in my garage and not worry about the diesel smell filling it.

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I'm impressed with the guys going up IKE Gauntlet.

 

The 2017 F350 6.7 diesel 6AT towing 12,500 lbs, and scored 4.1 mpg. (8.03.02 minutes)

The 2017 F250 6.2 V8 6AT towing 11,400 lbs, and scored 2.6 mpg. (8.53.39 minutes)

The 2017 F150 EB 3.5 10 AT towing 10,000 lbs, and scored 3.5 mpg. (8.02.27 minutes)

The 2016 F150 5.0 V8 6 AT towing 9,000 lbs, and scored 3.8 mpg. (8.12 minutes)

The 2016 F150 EB 2.7 6 AT towing 7,600 lbs, and scored 4.3 mpg. (7.38.17 minutes) ...backing out of the throttle all the way.

 

The F250 is a heavier truck towing 2,500 lbs more but 6.7 got roughly 20% better fuel economy

than the lighter Ecoboost F150 and absolutely walked all over the 6.2 V8 for power and economy

 

That's impressive

Edited by jpd80
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Two interesting snippets I saw / heard recently:

The first from Ford releasing the 2018 F150 owners manual on the internet was that the new diesel F150

complete with 3.0 V6 Powerstroke and 10AT is rated to tow a maximum of 12,000 lbs.

 

The second is that the '18 F150 2.7 EB with 400 lb ft ot torque is rated to tow a maximum of 8,500 lbs (reg cab)

and 8,200 lbs in crew cab but does that with absolute ease, suggesting that Ford is deliberately under rating it...

Edited by jpd80
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