Stray Kat Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Guys I realize it's late summer and news comes slow this time of year, but I am chomping at the bit to see what's next in Ford's engine arsenal. Several months ago we got teased with news of a 4.8 V8 engine and later a 7.0 V8 truck engine. More recently the 3.0 Lion diesel has been brought to the fore as the next big thing in light truck power. My question is, is there any news on these fronts? Do we know any more than just displacement on the two gasser V8's? Have we heard of the applications for these new engines? Sorry if I am jumping the gun but to tell you the truth, for my own satisfaction I am stirring the pot and hopefully creating a spot to place information about these exciting new engines. Love to hear from ya.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Well, being that I am NOT a fan of any 3 valve Mod., and I like the 6.2L, I am very curious about the 7L! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Really? You don't like any 3-valvers? Gosh you get the breathing of a 4 valve with the simplicity of a 2 valve. I think Ford delivers those engines with a VERY soft tune. The drive by wire gas pedal is a major culprit in my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) The 4.8 V8 was a misread of the slight change to bore / stroke of the upgraded 5.0 Coyote. A 3-valve head done properly on the 6.2 would add significantly to power and torque especially considering the bigger bore of the 6.2 timmediately allowing much larger valves than used on the small biore MOD motors. Any aversion people. have to 3-valve mods was overcome with the delivery of the 2008 4.6 Mustang and spark plug issue cure. Some have long memories regarding stuck,broken spark plugs in early 5.4 3V F150s but that issue was overcome years ago. The current 6.8 3V is a gem of and engine and doing well in Medium Duty. Edited August 25, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Yes the spark plug issue cast a pall on that engine from the start but that's been overcome. Three valve SOHC engines make sense to my simple mind in high volume applications. Remember the research Jim Feuling did with 3 valve heads and their combustion chambers? If I remember correctly he built some heads for the BBC block and he came up with diesel like torque and very good fuel efficiency. This bears out on the Ford 3 valve V10 that has earned a pretty darn good reputation in medium truck applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Turns out Ford licensed the 3 valve technology from Jim Feuling. Have a look at this link. http://www.feulingparts.com/aboutus.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Guys I realize it's late summer and news comes slow this time of year, but I am chomping at the bit to see what's next in Ford's engine arsenal. Several months ago we got teased with news of a 4.8 V8 engine and later a 7.0 V8 truck engine. More recently the 3.0 Lion diesel has been brought to the fore as the next big thing in light truck power. My question is, is there any news on these fronts? Do we know any more than just displacement on the two gasser V8's? Have we heard of the applications for these new engines? Sorry if I am jumping the gun but to tell you the truth, for my own satisfaction I am stirring the pot and hopefully creating a spot to place information about these exciting new engines. Love to hear from ya.... Job #1 for the 3.0 diesel is February 26th 2018. It will only be built in Dearborn. I wouldn't expect to see them on the lots until April at the earliest. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 The 4.8 V8 was a misread of the slight change to bore / stroke of the upgraded 5.0 Coyote. What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is the fact that the 2018 5.0L Coyote is now using the PTWA technology on the cylinder bores. IMO this is a major step in that Ford now has a relatively high volume engine using PTWA. It would be interesting to know the internal history behind why it has taken this long to incorporate PTWA into engines destined for something more than just low volume, niche performance cars. After all, it was first introduced on the 2011 5.4L aluminum block V8 in the GT500 Mustang. This SAE article was written in 2010. http://articles.sae.org/7624/ What were the issues? Was it all about controlling the cost of the application process or was there more to it than that? The first engine blocks were outsourced from casting supplier Honsel before the process was brought in-house to Essex for the 2015 GT350 5.2L Voodoo V8. http://wardsauto.com/technology/real-secret-behind-ford-s-gt350-mustang-engine I assume Essex is doing the spray bore process on the 2018 F-150 and Mustang GT 5.0L V8s. What other engines, if any, does Ford plan to use this technology on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 That PTWA tech is amazing to me. As a Ford Flathead enthusiast I can imagine that technology saving some otherwise junk blocks. I have heard PTWA is starting to enter the remanufacturing side of things. Anyways I am constantly amazed at how the Coyote engine just keeps getting better and better and taking the measure of the much larger displacement V8's from Gm Mopar and even the Japanese V8's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 Speaking of the 3.0 Lion diesel I'm interested to know if they share bell housing flange patterns with other Ford engines. Might not make a difference to the average person but myself I hope Ford has finally learned to standardize more hard points like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 That PTWA tech is amazing to me. As a Ford Flathead enthusiast I can imagine that technology saving some otherwise junk blocks. I have heard PTWA is starting to enter the remanufacturing side of things. Anyways I am constantly amazed at how the Coyote engine just keeps getting better and better and taking the measure of the much larger displacement V8's from Gm Mopar and even the Japanese V8's. Did you know that Nissan was actually the first manufacturer to use PTWA on a production engine? They used it on the twin-turbo V6 in the GT-R under the Ford/Flame Spray patents. I believe BMW is also using it on one their new 5-Series engines and Caterpillar is using it for repairing worn engine blocks. http://capitalremanexchange.com/plasma-transferred-wire-arc-welding-technology/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 (edited) Did you know that Nissan was actually the first manufacturer to use PTWA on a production engine? They used it on the twin-turbo V6 in the GT-R under the Ford/Flame Spray patents. I believe BMW is also using it on one their new 5-Series engines and Caterpillar is using it for repairing worn engine blocks. http://capitalremanexchange.com/plasma-transferred-wire-arc-welding-technology/ Nissan was using PTWA in GTR at the time Ford was using it in the GT500, I don't know whether Nissan kicked on and used it rlsewhere but Ford now uses it in all of its 5.0 V8s.for Mustang and F150. and that's currently around 20,000 engines a month. Edited August 26, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Job #1 for the 3.0 diesel is February 26th 2018. It will only be built in Dearborn. I wouldn't expect to see them on the lots until April at the earliest. . What a coincidence...I am going to be in the market for a new vehicle by then....things that make you go, "Hmmmmmm." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 Hey, if the 4.8 liter V8 comes to be, it would mark the return of an old displacement - the 292. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 26, 2017 Author Share Posted August 26, 2017 What if the 4.8 turns out to be a SOHC 3 valve variant and becomes the F150 V8 option? That would be something. Could be a much lower build cost engine if done correctly and challenge the 5.3 Gm choice in performance. So what is it with the 4.8? Is that an unsubstantiated rumor, a misunderstanding or just a ploy to throw the competition off? Is a 4.8 really coming to market or am I mistaken? If this is real one must really wonder what the applications might be. Base Mustang V8, V8 option for the F150 or the Expy and Navigator SUV's. Or maybe just maybe (and I'm being salacious here) it's a Bronco/ Ranger "nano" V8 positioned to dominate the Gm mid sized trucks and the Jeep. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 (edited) I doubt that we'll see another new variation of a base V8, the overwhelming acceptance of Ecoboost engines and their torque rich bottom end has all but ended the need for V8s in certain applications...could the next move for Ford be PTWA on I-4s and V6s? I wonder if the strength of PTWA cylinders is now much stronger than those thin cast in liners that Ford previously used in the 5.0 Coyote, maybe that's the key to increasing durability for other applications like using alloy blocks in Super Duty (always seen as a no no) Also, I think 3V is done in F150 and other applications, now that Ford has 4V , TiVCT and PFDI pretty much standard in F150 and Mustang But while 3V may be done in most applications, I suspect the 6.2 could really profit from the better low end port velocity and added torque that comes with it. Edited August 27, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 I would think the main bearing webbing in the cylinder block would be a more important factor than the strength of the cylinder liners. Back in the day most high performance Ford V8 blocks had beefier main webs and/or bearing caps. The 427 FE was also one of the first engines to use cross-bolted main bearing caps. The weak link in the old pushrod 5.0L V8 was the main bearing webs which were prone to cracking and failure under high horsepower loads. Why did Ford go with a CGI block in conjunction with an aluminum skirt on the 2.7L Nano V6? I doubt it was for weight savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 I would think the main bearing webbing in the cylinder block would be a more important factor than the strength of the cylinder liners. Back in the day most high performance Ford V8 blocks had beefier main webs and/or bearing caps. The 427 FE was also one of the first engines to use cross-bolted main bearing caps. The weak link in the old pushrod 5.0L V8 was the main bearing webs which were prone to cracking and failure under high horsepower loads. Main bearing webs was one of the areas upgraded in Coyote, thin cylinder liners cannot withstand high boost without eventually cracking. Why did Ford go with a CGI block in conjunction with an aluminum skirt on the 2.7L Nano V6? I doubt it was for weight savings. You may as well ask, why did Ford go again with an alloy block for the new upgraded 3.5 Ecoboost, Ford was trying out mew material like they did with the I.0 I-3 and possibly Dragon I-3 when it arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted August 27, 2017 Author Share Posted August 27, 2017 I don't think the boosted early Coyotes suffered cylinder wall cracking was due to the cast-in liner. That problem was more a result of a lack support in the deck area. The Coyote is a partially "open deck" design. The later versions have cast in supports around the top of the cylinders. This has eliminated the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) I don't think the boosted early Coyotes suffered cylinder wall cracking was due to the cast-in liner. That problem was more a result of a lack support in the deck area. The Coyote is a partially "open deck" design. The later versions have cast in supports around the top of the cylinders. This has eliminated the problem. Just to clarify, I meant more in terms of transition between the older Mod V8 and the Coyote, we saw companies like Koenisegg virtually re-engineer their blocks because the deck face, main bearing webs and cylinder liners were too thin in early MOD blocks for the boost levels used.. If you look at the genesis, there were several paths of progression for the Ford Mods to later versions, the evolution went basically as follows even though the engines did not necessarily get built in the originators production lines: 4.6 --> 5.0 Cammer --> Voodoo 4.6 --> 5.0 Coyote 5.4 -->Shelby Condor 5.4 --> Shelby Trinity 5.8 As a rough guide, the low deck was redesigned under two different projects while the high deck was upgraded for the Shelby GT500. Edited August 28, 2017 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) Now this is interesting and possibly reveals the future..... 582 HP, 442 lb ft for the Ford racing 5.2 Coyote There were emission issues with using the GT500 throttle body butmaybe adding PFDI can solve a few of those problems in the future.....On the other side of that, let's assume that the GT350's throttle body makes bothof these engines 1) emission compliant and 2) around 40 HP less.Then, we'd still have a 500 HP 5.0 and a 540 HP 5.2....Perfect for future HP Mustangs? Link to story...This photo best illustrates exactly how well the GT350 cylinder heads paired with the Cobra Jet intake manifold work on a standard 5.0-liter Coyote engine. The additional 15 cubic inches and half a point of compression is what makes the additional 41 horsepower on the 5.2-liter. And imagine a similar package on either the 6.2 or that future 7.0 V8... Mmmm I can dream. Edited August 28, 2017 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 The current 6.8 3V is a gem of and engine and doing well in Medium Duty. Sure it is dependable, but fuel economy is not one of its high points. Plus it is more expensive to build than a V8, even a larger displacement V8. Plus, it is simply "old". A lot of technology has gone by. Compare the current 5.0L with one of the 4V 4.6L modular engines. Even though the 5.0L is a direct descendant, it makes a lot more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is the fact that the 2018 5.0L Coyote is now using the PTWA technology on the cylinder bores. . . . What were the issues? Cost was obviously #1. Consistency of the process, in volume. Possible changes in machining Convincing management that that a non-remanufacturable block is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 I have heard PTWA is starting to enter the remanufacturing side of things. I find that hard to believe ! Most engine now a day have iron liners. They are easily and cheaply replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Convincing management that that a non-remanufacturable block is a good idea. Why is it "non-remanufacturable"? There are plenty of articles that state that the PTWA process can be used on many different types of blocks and I would imagine re-spraying a block that was originally sprayed would be one of the least complicated to re-manufacture. The other factor would also seem to be the wear resistance of the cylinder surface. Testing has shown that high mileage PTWA blocks have minimal wear from piston ring contact. Other engine components such as bearings and camshaft drives may not last as long as the cylinder bore surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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